Are we born into sin?

thats why God had to be born from a virgin, cause the sin trait is passed down thru the male

Originally posted by Slicky1313
thats why God had to be born from a virgin, cause the sin trait is passed down thru the male

Uh, what?

i think he means jesus had to be born from a virgin...therefore to be born new, so new born that he did not inherit sins etc

Originally posted by marg6043
For those who are not familiar with this story from the bible, it started with the very first couple to walk the earth.

God created Adam and Eve, "in his own image" declared that what He had made "Was very Good"
Unable to resolve the dilemma of homo sapiens using the free will that He had given them, God in exasperation came down to earth and had Himself nailed to a cross to appease his own wrath.

When Adam and Eve disobeyed(sin) God death and sin entered the human race. The Bible tells us that then Adam had children in his image, not God's anymore.

Someone can have a disease and pass it along to their children but not have it show up until later in that child's life. It was there all along but hadn't manifested itself yet. That's the way it is with sin, the ability to sin is in us from conception but doesn't show up until later.

God wasn't unable to resolve the dilema. Before the foundation of the world God knew He, Himself, would come to earth and take upon Himself our sin and yes appease the wrath of a holy God. God cannot live with sin so He couldn't live with us like He desires. So He did meet His own requirements and judge and destroy sin so that man will once again be able to live with Him in eternity. He didn't have to do this but He did. Once you understand who God is and who "you" are it will change you.

Originally posted by marg6043

So, as long as you repent and acept christ you can go right on sinning, no matter whom you offend, and still be, in God's eyes, a believer.

No that's not Biblical. God tells us that we must be "born again" to see God. If you truly accept Christ you don't want to sin. I don't want to hurt Christ more than I already have. If someone says they have accepted Christ and there isn't a lifestyle change and they want to keep sinning then they haven't accepted Christ at all.

Actually through the "original sin" is how the church and religion has taken a hold on the human along with the man made bible as a tool for manipulation using man's deepest fears and superstitions.

Keeping the people Dependant to their pastor and to their church for salvation is the best tool for domination.

Originally posted by marg6043
For those who are not familiar with this story from the bible, it started with the very first couple to walk the earth.

God created Adam and Eve, "in his own image" declared that what He had made "Was very Good" then got so enraged with them that He cursed the entire human race with an uncortrollable fury that continues to this very day.

Unable to resolve the dilemma of homo sapiens using the free will that He had given them, God in exasperation came down to earth and had Himself nailed to a cross to appease his own wrath.

And even this action did not change humanity.

Now how childish does this story sounds like? this is what church and the bible has being preaching to us all our life.

We have gotten more educated and smarted than that.

ROTFL! Now this has go to be the best and most clarified accounting of Christianity. Well done! If I may piggyback on this post to address the topic:

I am just getting around to reading this thread after I posted on this topic to another which was started by Amuk. His question is one we will never know the answer to until such time there is a reckoning, and it asked simply about about life after death.

Now imagine thousands of years ago we have the man with intelligence but with not much tapped intelligence, and they ask; from where did we come? why do we die? In the world they know they hunt for an explanation, as man being man, we have philosophers even back then, so they reach as far into the depth of their imaginations that they can and being believers in a God or Gods, a tale starts to spin and thus the one that lasted in a particular sect of people receives the most attention.

Now it was a very simple explanation, with the first two people being tempted by a serpent and eating a piece of fruit which probably sounded acceptable at the time. But with time, as the intelligence is tapped, and man progresses, the questions get a bit tougher, and the story is expounded upon, let's say philosophically, with each step and age. You can actually see this at play in Amuk's thread, none of us know the answer, but we have each reasoned through to the best of our logic and come to a conclusion, differing based on the stories we have bought into.

It is not difficult then, to take an established set of beliefs and from there, quote it, and expound on it even more and have others accept the newer version as an update on fact.

The issue of original sin holds no water, it was in fact a very hot topic among church fathers beginning well after Jesus' death, and it is from their interpretations that Christians adopt the theory of original sin, a sin as far as I can see is caught up in circular (il)logic.

Are we here to suffer?

Christianity is not the only religion that states that we incarnate here to suffer. Krishna in the Bhagvad Gita also said the physical worlds are places of suffering. Guru Nanak, the founding prophet of the Sikh faith(whom I'm growing to admire) also stated that suffering is a part of life.

There is no one who has not suffered and there a few who have not suffered throughout their lives. We are indeed born into suffering. We incarnate into an imperfect world with an imperfect body. We are born directly into bondage of the man-made societal and govermental systems. There is no freedom at all.

How we lead our lives, how we think and the kind of opportunites we have is strongly influenced by which religion, caste, nationality, class we are born into. So our lives strongly depend on the cards we are dealt. So, it's the truth; there is a lot of suffering in life. This is why we are vulnerable to religion, because religion preys on our suffering and promises us salvation and emancipation in another life so as long as we surrender to their ways. We break free of one chain just to put another one on.

Is this life really nothing but suffering? No of course not! We know life is not so one-dimensional and single minded. In the hand we are dealt - there is always a wildcard as well. The wildcard is that card that we can exercise to not suffer and to explore other facets of life. What else is life about? Life is about celebration; about love; about feeling; about discovery; about dreaming and actualizing our dreams. There is none that has not experienced a moment of none-suffering. Henceforth, what kind of place of suffering is this, where one can choose not to suffer. Choose is the operative word. We have a choice to suffer or not to suffer. We have a choice to co- create the life that we want with our world. So how does one choose not to suffer? It is easier said than done. As we cannot control the world and the eventualities of suffering.

There are two worlds that we know: the inner world and the outer world. We can control our inner-world, but, we cannot control our outer world. No matter how strong your resolve to not suffer in your inner-world it will not change the fact that in the outer and tangible world there is suffering. Jesus suffered; Krishna suffered; Nanak suffered; Buddha suffered.

However, there is a distinction, while they all suffered, they did not own that suffering in their inner world. That is the secret of our esteemed spiritual masters. When we catch a cold we say we caught a cold. We do not say "I am a cold" This is called disassociation When we are inside a house and we say "I am in a house" We do not say "I am the house" we disassociate the "house" from ourselves.

Life is about passing moments, they can be moments of suffering or moments of celebration. Yet they do not become us. They only become us when we accept them into our inner world and they become a part of us and are reflected in our outer world. They are false-truths. There is only one truth and that is AUM, which is, I am. Everything else is an illusion that we create by adding a suffix to "I am" and then taking on the character, attitudes, beliefs, meaning and expectations of that suffix. That is what creates a personality.

So what kind of personality do we nuture in a born child when we say they are a sinner and are here to suffer until they cleanse themselves of their sins.

What sins? The original sin commited by Adam and Eve by procreating.
How to cleanse? By being baptized and leading a way of life sanctioned by the Church.
How long? All your life.

So a Non-Christian is condemned for life; a Christian that is not baptized is condemned for life; a Christian that is baptized is condemned to live in constant fear of commiting sins for life.

What is suffering? Suffering is that feeling of dissonance that we experience when we do not meet our expectations or if our expectations are to suffer themselves. Someone who believes they are a sinner will expect suffering and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

In conclusion: We are not here to suffer, but choose the sufferings ourselves, when we believe that we are and when we accept suffering. A belief is very powerful; it can completely transform ones life for the better or the worse. What can be more worse than believing you were born condemned?

Pure Christians choose to believe in a vengeful, judgemental, punishing and tyrannical God. They choose fear over love. They choose enslavement over freedom. They choose pain over joy. They believe in a lesser god. They believe in a lesser self. No wonder they are not emancipated and no wonder they are suffering.

There are many who hold that all religions are equal. Nothing can be further from the truth. A true religion, or way of life, is that, that encourages our well being and unites us with creation. That is love, peace and light. I am amused at the irony at that we attribute these same values to God, yet, do not practice them ourselves. There is only one way for salvation and that is to practice the greatest values that you attribute to God.

[edit on 4-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Pure Christians choose to believe in a vengeful, judgemental, punishing and tyrannical God.

Um, no.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
They choose fear over love.

Did you read the Book?

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
They choose enslavement over freedom.

Not a fan of Proverbs either huh?

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
They choose pain over joy.

Nor Psalms I guess.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
They believe in a lesser god.

Or the ten commandments...

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
They believe in a lesser self.

James 1:2

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
No wonder they are not emancipated and no wonder they are suffering.

Oh I suffer so badly, woe is me . I'd stay and chat but I have a party to go to.

Sant4god, I am not sure what you are trying to debate. Are you debating actuals truths that are part of Christianity? One such truth you attempted to refute was that god was judgemental and punishing. Well, of course he is, if you consider that after life he sends us to heaven or hell accordingly. In order for god to condemn someone to hell - he must judge and punish, right?



[edit on 4-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Sant4god, I am not sure what you are trying to debate. Are you debating actuals truths that are part of Christianity?

Nope.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
One such truth you attempted to refute was that god was judgemental and punishing.

I'm not refusing that he will be the judge, nor ultimately would punish. I as a parent, I punish my child, but I do so because I care about their behaviour being corrected.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Well, of course he is, if you consider that after life he sends us to heaven or hell accordingly. In order for god to condemn someone to hell - he must judge and punish, right?

I follow that, but...

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Pure Christians choose to believe in a vengeful, judgemental, punishing and tyrannical God.

What is it you're basing the accusations of tyranny on? If He were a God of daily wrath and vengence as made out in your statement, most of us would not be permitted to live for our daily crimes against him, no? He is the loving God who believes in forgiveness. Granted, we need to take some steps to meet him on that. An agreement takes two parties and a handshake is made up of two hands of different persons.

I'm not refusing that he will be the judge, nor ultimately would punish. I as a parent, I punish my child, but I do so because I care about their behaviour being corrected.

The difference here, as ordained by the Christian church, is that their god does not actually punish us to correct our mistakes, he punishes us for making a mistake. If you are sent to hell you are damned for eternity.

However, if you commit minor mistakes, like missing church, then you are sent to a temporal hell or purgatory. That does sound like a tyrannical, punishing and judgemental God. Does it not to you?

If He were a God of daily wrath and vengence as made out in your statement, most of us would not be permitted to live for our daily crimes against him, no?

We still suffer the wrath and vengance of the Christian god. It's just in the aferlife. The tyranny is, that if we do not conform to god's will, then we are condemned. It sounds like George Bush's New World Order speech.

Do you see the inherent problems in a belief system that uses fear to control people? It sounds more like the Christian Church - than it does god.

The only punishment we have to live with and be aware of is the one that the church and its doctrine has build around in their teachings in order to obtain salvation.

That is why every time a natural disaster or any type of disasters occurs if it takes lots of humans lives immediately the wrath or the wishes of God are brought up by different religious groups to make sense and to prove that is a higher being out there that has the power to punish the sinner.

You don't see any group giving God credit for anything good, its mostly for bad things.

That is why God is seen as a punisher more than anything else.

[edit on 5-1-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
in the book of ezekiel it tells us, 'only the original sinner is to be punished, the son does not inherit the father's sins'. it won't be that word for word but that's the jist of it. from that i would conclude that no we are not born in to sin. with the adam story of his so called 'original sin', that was made up by the catholic church many years after the bible was put together. if you do a word search in the bible then there is no mention of 'oringal sin'. so there is no 'original sin', also we don't inherit our sins from our father, therefore i believe we are not born in to sin. if a christian believes that you are then you are not being taught from the bible, as the bible mentions neither 'original sin' or the fact that we should be born in to sin. then again on average only about 10% of christians in america admitted to reading the bible, and only 1% remembered the 10 commandments. so it's obvious that most don't know a single thing about their religion other than they're going to go to heaven.

Yeah, 'Original Sin' is a man made concept. The Catholic Church also did many other things that I don't quite agree with, although i am a Catholic.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
However, if you commit minor mistakes, like missing church, then you are sent to a temporal hell or purgatory.

Says who? I think we're talking about the same thing on another post so either one you'd like to address is fine.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
That does sound like a tyrannical, punishing and judgemental God. Does it not to you?

This one I'll also bridge with another thread. There I was talking about how we're always blaming God for our faults. Peeps don't like me to quote so I won't but I will refer to all those instances of wrath in the Old Testament, whereas we as humans had hurt God so badly, that He was full of sorrow. It was our unwillingness to do what was right and change that led to those ends.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
We still suffer the wrath and vengance of the Christian god. It's just in the aferlife. The tyranny is, that if we do not conform to god's will, then we are condemned. It sounds like George Bush's New World Order speech.

God gave us free will with two simple rules. Love God, having no other gods and love your neighbor as yourself. Is that too much to ask?

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Do you see the inherent problems in a belief system that uses fear to control people? It sounds more like the Christian Church - than it does god.

I do not fear a church. I fear no man or the Devil. I fear that I may be removed from God, thus I don't walk the paths that leads away from Him.


[edit on 7-1-2005 by saint4God]

[edit on 7-1-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by marg6043
You don't see any group giving God credit for anything good, its mostly for bad things.

That is why God is seen as a punisher more than anything else.

Thanks marg, that's an interesting way of looking at it.