Are we born into sin?, page 2
Pages: <<  1    2  >>
ATS Members have flagged this thread 0 times


reply posted on 3-1-2005 @ 07:28 PM by SomewhereinBetween
Originally posted by marg6043
For those who are not familiar with this story from the bible, it started with the very first couple to walk the earth.

God created Adam and Eve, "in his own image" declared that what He had made "Was very Good" then got so enraged with them that He cursed the entire human race with an uncortrollable fury that continues to this very day.

Unable to resolve the dilemma of homo sapiens using the free will that He had given them, God in exasperation came down to earth and had Himself nailed to a cross to appease his own wrath.

And even this action did not change humanity.

Now how childish does this story sounds like? this is what church and the bible has being preaching to us all our life.

We have gotten more educated and smarted than that.
ROTFL! Now this has go to be the best and most clarified accounting of Christianity. Well done! If I may piggyback on this post to address the topic:

I am just getting around to reading this thread after I posted on this topic to another which was started by Amuk. His question is one we will never know the answer to until such time there is a reckoning, and it asked simply about about life after death.

Now imagine thousands of years ago we have the man with intelligence but with not much tapped intelligence, and they ask; from where did we come? why do we die? In the world they know they hunt for an explanation, as man being man, we have philosophers even back then, so they reach as far into the depth of their imaginations that they can and being believers in a God or Gods, a tale starts to spin and thus the one that lasted in a particular sect of people receives the most attention.

Now it was a very simple explanation, with the first two people being tempted by a serpent and eating a piece of fruit which probably sounded acceptable at the time. But with time, as the intelligence is tapped, and man progresses, the questions get a bit tougher, and the story is expounded upon, let's say philosophically, with each step and age. You can actually see this at play in Amuk's thread, none of us know the answer, but we have each reasoned through to the best of our logic and come to a conclusion, differing based on the stories we have bought into.

It is not difficult then, to take an established set of beliefs and from there, quote it, and expound on it even more and have others accept the newer version as an update on fact.

The issue of original sin holds no water, it was in fact a very hot topic among church fathers beginning well after Jesus' death, and it is from their interpretations that Christians adopt the theory of original sin, a sin as far as I can see is caught up in circular (il)logic.


reply posted on 4-1-2005 @ 10:48 AM by Indigo_Child
Are we here to suffer?

Christianity is not the only religion that states that we incarnate here to suffer. Krishna in the Bhagvad Gita also said the physical worlds are places of suffering. Guru Nanak, the founding prophet of the Sikh faith(whom I'm growing to admire) also stated that suffering is a part of life.

There is no one who has not suffered and there a few who have not suffered throughout their lives. We are indeed born into suffering. We incarnate into an imperfect world with an imperfect body. We are born directly into bondage of the man-made societal and govermental systems. There is no freedom at all.

How we lead our lives, how we think and the kind of opportunites we have is strongly influenced by which religion, caste, nationality, class we are born into. So our lives strongly depend on the cards we are dealt. So, it's the truth; there is a lot of suffering in life. This is why we are vulnerable to religion, because religion preys on our suffering and promises us salvation and emancipation in another life so as long as we surrender to their ways. We break free of one chain just to put another one on.

Is this life really nothing but suffering? No of course not! We know life is not so one-dimensional and single minded. In the hand we are dealt - there is always a wildcard as well. The wildcard is that card that we can exercise to not suffer and to explore other facets of life. What else is life about? Life is about celebration; about love; about feeling; about discovery; about dreaming and actualizing our dreams. There is none that has not experienced a moment of none-suffering. Henceforth, what kind of place of suffering is this, where one can choose not to suffer. Choose is the operative word. We have a choice to suffer or not to suffer. We have a choice to co- create the life that we want with our world. So how does one choose not to suffer? It is easier said than done. As we cannot control the world and the eventualities of suffering.

There are two worlds that we know: the inner world and the outer world. We can control our inner-world, but, we cannot control our outer world. No matter how strong your resolve to not suffer in your inner-world it will not change the fact that in the outer and tangible world there is suffering. Jesus suffered; Krishna suffered; Nanak suffered; Buddha suffered.

However, there is a distinction, while they all suffered, they did not own that suffering in their inner world. That is the secret of our esteemed spiritual masters. When we catch a cold we say we caught a cold. We do not say "I am a cold" This is called disassociation When we are inside a house and we say "I am in a house" We do not say "I am the house" we disassociate the "house" from ourselves.

Life is about passing moments, they can be moments of suffering or moments of celebration. Yet they do not become us. They only become us when we accept them into our inner world and they become a part of us and are reflected in our outer world. They are false-truths. There is only one truth and that is AUM, which is, I am. Everything else is an illusion that we create by adding a suffix to "I am" and then taking on the character, attitudes, beliefs, meaning and expectations of that suffix. That is what creates a personality.

So what kind of personality do we nuture in a born child when we say they are a sinner and are here to suffer until they cleanse themselves of their sins.

What sins? The original sin commited by Adam and Eve by procreating.
How to cleanse? By being baptized and leading a way of life sanctioned by the Church.
How long? All your life.

So a Non-Christian is condemned for life; a Christian that is not baptized is condemned for life; a Christian that is baptized is condemned to live in constant fear of commiting sins for life.

What is suffering? Suffering is that feeling of dissonance that we experience when we do not meet our expectations or if our expectations are to suffer themselves. Someone who believes they are a sinner will expect suffering and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

In conclusion: We are not here to suffer, but choose the sufferings ourselves, when we believe that we are and when we accept suffering. A belief is very powerful; it can completely transform ones life for the better or the worse. What can be more worse than believing you were born condemned?

Pure Christians choose to believe in a vengeful, judgemental, punishing and tyrannical God. They choose fear over love. They choose enslavement over freedom. They choose pain over joy. They believe in a lesser god. They believe in a lesser self. No wonder they are not emancipated and no wonder they are suffering.

There are many who hold that all religions are equal. Nothing can be further from the truth. A true religion, or way of life, is that, that encourages our well being and unites us with creation. That is love, peace and light. I am amused at the irony at that we attribute these same values to God, yet, do not practice them ourselves. There is only one way for salvation and that is to practice the greatest values that you attribute to God.

[edit on 4-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]



reply posted on 7-1-2005 @ 12:06 PM by saint4God
Originally posted by Indigo_Child
However, if you commit minor mistakes, like missing church, then you are sent to a temporal hell or purgatory.


Says who? I think we're talking about the same thing on another post so either one you'd like to address is fine.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
That does sound like a tyrannical, punishing and judgemental God. Does it not to you?


This one I'll also bridge with another thread. There I was talking about how we're always blaming God for our faults. Peeps don't like me to quote so I won't but I will refer to all those instances of wrath in the Old Testament, whereas we as humans had hurt God so badly, that He was full of sorrow. It was our unwillingness to do what was right and change that led to those ends.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
We still suffer the wrath and vengance of the Christian god. It's just in the aferlife. The tyranny is, that if we do not conform to god's will, then we are condemned. It sounds like George Bush's New World Order speech.


God gave us free will with two simple rules. Love God, having no other gods and love your neighbor as yourself. Is that too much to ask?

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Do you see the inherent problems in a belief system that uses fear to control people? It sounds more like the Christian Church - than it does god.


I do not fear a church. I fear no man or the Devil. I fear that I may be removed from God, thus I don't walk the paths that leads away from Him.


[edit on 7-1-2005 by saint4God]

[edit on 7-1-2005 by saint4God]

Pages: <<  1    2  >>    ^^TOP^^



Why are these 10 figures just like Jesus Christ??
  Posted 7 days ago with 14 member flags
I am an imposter in Church
  Posted 6 days ago with 11 member flags
What Kind of Christianity Is This?
  Posted 18 days ago with 7 member flags
The Great Flood Was Caused By A Comet?
  Posted 13 days ago with 7 member flags
Advert claiming cure through prayer is banned
  Posted 7 days ago with 7 member flags
The real Jewish people. Torah Jews Against ZIONISM
  Posted 15 days ago with 6 member flags
The World Is in Desperate Need of Heretics!
  Posted 12 days ago with 6 member flags