How many of our Christian members believe they were born into sin? And how do you justify this belief?

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

in the book of ezekiel it tells us, 'only the original sinner is to be punished, the son does not inherit the father's sins'. it won't be that word for word but that's the jist of it. from that i would conclude that no we are not born in to sin. with the adam story of his so called 'original sin', that was made up by the catholic church many years after the bible was put together. if you do a word search in the bible then there is no mention of 'oringal sin'. so there is no 'original sin', also we don't inherit our sins from our father, therefore i believe we are not born in to sin. if a christian believes that you are then you are not being taught from the bible, as the bible mentions neither 'original sin' or the fact that we should be born in to sin. then again on average only about 10% of christians in america admitted to reading the bible, and only 1% remembered the 10 commandments. so it's obvious that most don't know a single thing about their religion other than they're going to go to heaven.

While it is taught by the church I attended when small, my mother brought me up that there was no original sin, that the church was wrong. She told us that it was absolutely ridiculous that little babies would be born into sin, and it was all about guilt. I stopped going to church when I was five, and never looked back. This, in my opinion, is one of the silliest things in christian dogma. That, and the weird catholic obsession with the pope. If I had to be forced to go when I was little, I'm glad it was an extremely liberal protestant church that encouraged questions. They were more of a "judge not lest ye be judged, by what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged, by what measure ye mete, shall be measured to you again' group. Pretty tolerant, as far as christians go, even sort-of OK with homosexuality (falls under 'judge not').

I am in a religious mood today, as you can notice. Theologically speaking, the Original Sin is a stain that covers ALL of Mankind (with the only exception, if you are a devout Catholic, of the Virgin Mary) and is washed away only with the Baptism. It has not always been this way. In primitive Christianity there was no notion of an Original Sin whatsoever. People were bound to Hell because they didn't believe in Jesus' teachings, not because Adam and Eve had eaten the forbidden fruit. With the Baptism a person was accepted into the community of the true believers, meaning he/she had accepted Jesus' teachings and was now a different person, different from all the other "heathens". It was an introduction into a Mysteric cult: many religions already had a baptism, both with water or blood from a sacrificial offer (Actis, Dionisus, Mitra, etc), by which the "believing" community accepted a new member after he/she had learnt the secret message of salvation and accepted it. That's why in primitive Christianity only adults were baptized: a newborn child could not possibly understand Jesus' (or Actis' or Mitra's) message. That's only later that the Baptism became a mean of removing the Original Sin and had to be administered to everybody, even by force. It's still not perfectly clear how this came into being, I will probably return onto it later, in a new post. Unbaptized children that die are not treated kindly by the official theology: the official position (upholden by St. Augustine, among the others)is that they go straight to Hell. Of course, this is inacceptable nowaday, so new positions have sprung up: since the late Middle Ages "moderate" clerics and theologists have created a "Limbus Puerorum", without either bliss or pain, where unbaptized children will wait for God's judgment till the end of days. Lately a new position has sprung up among the gentlest souls: unbaptized babies will wait the end of days in a separate place, without the light of God, but full of "natural" bliss (Winkelhofer). When the Judgment will come, Jesus, in his immense mercy, will lead them to heaven. But don't say this aloud: not all Christians accept this position.

My conscience is clear... no sin here.

I wasn't born with a guilty conscience 'coz i didn't have time to do anything yet.

The moment i arrived home (from the hospital) though, my mom removes my diaper and... wheee... i pee in my dad jaffacake tin.

I was never really forgiven for that... but my cocscience remained clear

Sinful is a person's nature. Being born is not a sin. Those who think children a free of a sinful nature obviously have never been parents . Once someone reaches an age of rationalization, where they can determine right from wrong, they then begin their path of choices. At an age where they question existence, that's when they seek spiritual truth, therefore making more choices such as accepting God and Jesus as his son. I know peeps like to pin an age on when these things happen, but you cannot because different people mature at different rates.

As for the post below:

Originally posted by shaunybaby
...then again on average only about 10% of christians in america admitted to reading the bible,

Yes, but how many understand the Bible? More or less than that 10%? That's the statistic I'd like to see.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
and only 1% remembered the 10 commandments.

So what? Can you recite the first 10 amendments to the Bill of Rights? Jesus says in fulfillment of the law Matthew 22:35 -

One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind'. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hand on these two commandments.

This encompasses the thinking behind the 10 commandments. If you're making a case for Christians not being good lawyers, I think you may be on to something.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so it's obvious that most don't know a single thing about their religion other than they're going to go to heaven.

Substantiate this claim.

The only original sin we are born in is the one that the church tags on newborn children to make the parents believers.

I see things differently--obviously--I'm also part of the Jewish Covenant. For me, baptism was merely the beginning of a path of seeking clarity about "God" himself. Never mind, all these other prophets and teachers.

Christians are taught by Paul that Jesus' death made the law obsolete, the earlier covenants obsolete; and that their baptism is what saves them.

That doesn't make sense to me. Babies don't understand anything; and they cannot consent; so baptism of a baby clearly only establishes the intention of the parents. The first Israelites consented to being administered by Law, even tho Joshua wrote ethnic cleansing and stoning into the Law as penalties--and then said God told him to. Yikes.

An adult baptism is the acceptance and consent to the covenant that the baptism represents. John the Baptist also baptized Jews--into repentance for the errors that illogical and self-centered teachers had cultivated in their midst.

But Adam was part of a covenant--stewardship--also--even though he defaulted. Should we now abandon that covenant? Of course not. It was and still is an important covenant, not to be shunted aside. Yet a whole branch of YHVHists claiming the Bible is inspired by Him also repudiate conservation and say, "Bring on Armageddon! Destroy the world!"

That's nuts. Who ever said baptism should result in the end of the world?

The same people who believe infants are sinners, I suppose.

[edit on 3-1-2005 by defrag99]

Originally posted by saint4God

As for the post below:

Originally posted by shaunybaby
...then again on average only about 10% of christians in america admitted to reading the bible,

Yes, but how many understand the Bible? More or less than that 10%? That's the statistic I'd like to see.

well what does it matter about understanding the bible? if 90% of the christians questioned haven't read the bible, then they won't understand it. so i would say the percentage of people that understand the bible would be 10% or prehaps less.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
and only 1% remembered the 10 commandments.

So what? Can you recite the first 10 amendments to the Bill of Rights? Jesus says in fulfillment of the law Matthew 22:35 -
One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind'. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hand on these two commandments.

This encompasses the thinking behind the 10 commandments. If you're making a case for Christians not being good lawyers, I think you may be on to something.

well no i cannot recite the 10 ammendments to the bill of rights, the same as i cannot recite the 10 commandments. then again i am not a religious person, nor do i believe i should love thy neighbor as i love myself. it might be in his and my nature that we just don't get along. jesus said if someone hits you turn the other cheek and let them strike you again...this is the same jesus that took a whip to money lenders in the temples. im also not suggesting that christians wouldn't make good lawyers, im merely pointing out that if those 10 commandments were handed on stone tablets to moses by god...that a christian cannot even recite those, which would be one of the most important parts of their religion.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so it's obvious that most don't know a single thing about their religion other than they're going to go to heaven.

Substantiate this claim.

what do you think the 90% that haven't read the bible meant?
what do you think the 99% that could recite the 10 commandments meant?
those statistics substantiate my claim for most people who are christian don't worry about reading their bible, dont worry about their commandments that were handed to moses by god, and this leads me to the conclusion that all those people really know and care about is the salvation offered by the guy standing up preaching to them every sunday.

[edit on 3-1-2005 by shaunybaby]

I guess what I'm getting at here is where in the world do these stats come from? Nobody asked me if I read the Bible and if I am able to come up with the 10 commandments off the cuff. What you're saying here is that I'm amoung a 1% of Christians which I find really ironic considering I know many many more people in my hometown alone who have a lot of things they could teach me about Christianity. I guess they skipped my town in the poll. In fact, I'd bet they skipped my state in the poll. I guess they overlooked my country as well. You see where I'm going here? How many Christians were polled? Is it a national poll? What was the source of the poll? What article? Is this a poll you took? What what what substantiation at all comes from this poll? 50% of all statics are false. I would not recommend that anyone become a propagandist's lapdog.

Even if the poll is correct, what does what people think have to do with doctrine anyway? What's written is written. Jesus spells out how sin works as recorded the gospels and spiritual destination in the pop verse John 3:16.

If you're saying there are some hypocrites out there calling themselves 'Christian', then the only thing I have to say to that is, "no way!" Saying they represent a vast majority though shows how few Christians a person truly knows. After you meet a good number of them, it's easy to deny the ignorance of a poll.

[edit on 3-1-2005 by saint4God]

Thanks for putting a few things on the table to think about. Just for the record, the end of the world will be a very sorrowful time. Anyone who 'wishes' it is just plain sadistic.

[edit on 3-1-2005 by saint4God]

Language is a living process. That is why the meaning of the word "sin," has differing significance from what it meant to earlier people. While protestant theology decried the indulgence system, it kept the original sin theology that was responsible for so many people feeling "unclean." It was a matter of reasoning, where people form a linkage between events. Okay so Christ came to redeem us, from what? Sin of course? But that idea "misses the mark," in fact the concept of sin is exactly that "missing the mark." Our usage of the term reflects years of sermons. Years of the hell-indulgence or purgutory-indulgence profiteering, made us all miss the mark, and protestant theology did nothing about this profitable "system." In fact there is very little talk about "hell," from Jesus. When it did happen it was to accomodate people in their beliefs, to unpry them from the circumscribed scope of their thinking. Do babies cry just a bit too hard hearing bad sermons, and how much do they cry?

Religion does us a disservice, when it exists to line the deep pockets of the elite, and to reduce us to peasanthood. The theology of "original sin," even if off the mark in some small way, is no theology for life. Now a hamburger or chocolate cake is great, these foods simply taste great. But put something very bad in it, even if you cannot really taste it, then you are not long for this world. It is the same problem with religion. Maybe that problem is in fact "orignal sin," and nothing else, namely why all the sweet religious people and their astute words, and what happens afterwards? Indulgences, Medicis, anti-popes, long garments, all the same things happen. We have an indifferent Pat Robertson telling us "abortion is okay in China," what? If anything "original sin," is when history repeats itself, and usually badly and with the illusion of power, monetary profit, as well as exploitation. Original sin as well as apocolyptic cynicism is "missing the mark." Go figure.

Definition of original sin, "getting back to the original thread"

Man, ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

He acquired a mind and became a rational being.

It was the knowledge of good and evil.

He became a moral being.

He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor.

He became a productive being.

He was sentenced to experience desire.

He acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment.

The evils for which (the preachers) damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy.

All the cardianl values of his existance.

(by Ayn Rand)

Pretty good sumarizes why we are sinners Righ?

get an electronic KJV bible, search for the word original sin and you will notice there is no mention of this universal sin that derived from adam eating the fruit. as it says in ezekiel 'the father is the sinner, the son does not inherit the sins'.

Originally posted by SkipShipman
Religion does us a disservice, when it exists to line the deep pockets of the elite, and to reduce us to peasanthood.

Here we go again with 'the church made me poor' complaint. Do you actually know what a minister makes? You should see the crowd pushing their way into seminary school because the of the salary, benefits, and stock options the job offers! Those teachers and policemen must be making too much too, right? Alright, sorry if 'the man' is keeping you down, but here's something to consider about the offering. The root word being 'offer', that's something YOU choose to give. If you choose to give nothing then I assure you, you will not receive a phone call from Pastor Ron asking where the money is. How many Christians do you know complain about having to give? None, because giving is supposed to be a part of who they are. They give to people who need their time, guidance and resources because they love. Loving and giving go hand-in-hand. Do you give a dozen roses to someone you care about then complain about the cost? If you do, you're not in a healthy relationship. It's that simple.

Not enough? What did Jesus say about money then? Matthew 19:16 & Matt 22:15.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
get an electronic KJV bible, search for the word original sin and you will notice there is no mention of this universal sin that derived from adam eating the fruit. as it says in ezekiel 'the father is the sinner, the son does not inherit the sins'.

You have mentioned this passage in Ezekiel twice now as I am reading this thread. The problem is that you have misinterpreted it. It is not trying to state that because the father committed sin, the son won't necessarily commit sin. It is saying that if the father was a thief, the son will not be branded a thief just because his father was. This was something new at the time, becasue the Jews held that the sins of a man would be carried to the seventh generation.

[edit on 1/3/2005 by Jerrbert]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
How many of our Christian members believe they were born into sin? And how do you justify this belief?

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Everyone has a 'sin nature.' It started back with Adam and Eve.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

The passage goes on from there to talk about how we are given life through Christ, but you can see from this verse that Paul very specifically claims that we are all sinners and that it originated from one person.

As for children and being a sinner as soon as you are born, well, the Bible talks extensively about all of us being sinners, but not about when we gain that title exactly. My belief is that a child will step into the realm of being a sinner when they are able to separate right from wrong and make a conscious decision to do wrong instead of right. I have an eleven month old daughter. No matter how often she pulls all of my books off the book shelf or tears pages out of them, I do not consider her a sinner. She is exploring her environment and I have seen no indication that she realizes what right and wrong are (I am providing an amusing anecdote, not trying to imply that pulling books off a shelf or ripping them is a sin). On the other hand, my four year old daughter shows signs that she knows that certain things are wrong and yet she does them anyways. SHe looks around to see if anyone is watching her. She tries to hide evidence if she is caught and often cries immediately when caught because she knows she is about to be punished.

We definitely are subject to original sin, even if that exact wording is not found in the Bible. Most people do not want to acknowledge that becasue it means that they will have to come to terms with the fact that they have done something wrong, and they may be held accountable for it.

I am a sinner and I will always be a sinner. I try my best not to do wrong, but I do it anyways. I seek forgiveness from God and from those who I wrong. I take responsibility fro my actions, right or wrong. That is all I can do as a Christian, besides much prayer and faith that God will help me to overcome some of my urges to sin.

For those who are not familiar with this story from the bible, it started with the very first couple to walk the earth.

God created Adam and Eve, "in his own image" declared that what He had made "Was very Good" then got so enraged with them that He cursed the entire human race with an uncortrollable fury that continues to this very day.

Unable to resolve the dilemma of homo sapiens using the free will that He had given them, God in exasperation came down to earth and had Himself nailed to a cross to appease his own wrath.

And even this action did not change humanity.

Now how childish does this story sounds like? this is what church and the bible has being preaching to us all our life.

We have gotten more educated and smarted than that.

Originally posted by marg6043
For those who are not familiar with this story from the bible, it started with the very first couple to walk the earth.

God created Adam and Eve, "in his own image" declared that what He had made "Was very Good" then got so enraged with them that He cursed the entire human race with an uncortrollable fury that continues to this very day.

Unable to resolve the dilemma of homo sapiens using the free will that He had given them, God in exasperation came down to earth and had Himself nailed to a cross to appease his own wrath.

And even this action did not change humanity.

Now how childish does this story sounds like? this is what church and the bible has being preaching to us all our life.

We have gotten more educated and smarted than that.

So in this 'uncontrollable fury,' God made clothes for Adam and Eve before he sent them out of the garden? He took pity on them even after they deliberately went against his wishes.

Then, God continues to help mankind throughout the Bible. He punishes when they do wrong, but also shows mercy at every turn.

Unable to solve the dilema? So, God sees that mankind will never achieve what God wants for them, to spend eternity with Him, so he provides a way for them to not have to suffer the punishment that they brought on themselves. More mercy.

He was never trying to change humanity, only give them a way to Him, that they would never have had without Christ.

Actually by original sin we all born sinners.

There is not thing as an inocent baby, because from conception we all merit the wrath and judgement of God. psalm51:5.

We are charge with Adam's sin, and we can be sent to hell for comitting a sin or not.

But we forget that the whole point of this biblical teaching is to keep you bind to church.

Its not about sinners liking God, but getting God to like sinners. All over the bible we read that God maintains his wrath against his enemies, (Nahum 1:2) And that God wrath is on the unbeliever every day of their life. (John 3:36)

Again the bible brings the wrath of God, or the fury of the wrath of God in (Rev. 19:15) and on the wrath or the lamb (Rev. 6:16) God can not accept us the way we are.

We are, and always will be inperfect and wicked. Now the way the religious preachers bring redemption to the "sinners" is with special favors and status from God given to them by God itself, (so they tell you), using the christ as the saviour of your sins.

So, as long as you repent and acept christ you can go right on sinning, no matter whom you offend, and still be, in God's eyes, a believer.

Funny how religious interpreters will keep you hook on them for salvation and to make sense of most of the bible nonsense.

But what can you expect when men was the one that wrote the bible. We are after all imperfect.