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The evidence you want, the evidence you need...?

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posted on Sep, 19 2015 @ 07:29 PM
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I've often wondered this of myself with regards to what type of proof would I need to embrace the UFO/Alien phenomena without hesitation. Let me preface this by saying I am a believer AND a skeptic. I believe there is something to it all, something beyond mass hysteria. However to say I believe that Aliens are visiting the earth, or abducting humans, or working with our government, or any other number of conspiracy related conjecture relating the aliens, is just not true (for me). Like many well balanced people I understand that something must be going on, however tangible proof is simply not widely available (if at all). And this gets us to the point of the topic...

What type of proof is required for you to believe?

Type 1. Personal testimony:

I personally find this type of evidence to be the most profound. I can rely on my own senses and sensibility to reasonably ascertain truth from fiction. Obviously this is not a scientific method nor fool proof, but at the end of the day all we really have is each others stories. What I also consider fundamental is the sheer amount of personal testimony out there as it numbers in the millions. But as much as I embrace the evidence of personal testimony, I can not put it in the proof bucket so the search remains.

Type 2. Photographic evidence:

Aiding personal testimony is photographic evidence. For decades I have seen what I would consider credible and viable photographs that may very well capture UFO's and alien beings. Yet, can this form of evidence ever really be considered proof? No matter how well it may hold up to scrutiny or how many experts may validate, we simply live in a time where just about anything can be created, manipulated, or fabricated just about flawlessly digitally. And prior to digital, it may not have been as easy but not impossible then either. With regards to photographs, it seems that no subject matter could ever be good enough to take as proof, proof enough for belief.

Type 3. Video evidence:

Very similar to photo evidence with regards to the ability to manipulate, it does however draw one in a bit more. Yet, can one really ever see any video no matter the context and declare proof? Instill belief? knowing how easy and widespread it is to CGI almost anything flawlessly given the right talent? I can surely be intrigued by video evidence, even compelled to call it "evidence" but it will always fall short of absolute proof that instills belief (to me).

Type 4. Personal experience(s):

This is where it gets murky... On one hand, you have a first hand account of what is happening. However on the other it may very well be in your head, a bad dream, ect... Can you really say for 100% certainty that what you have perceived to be as real in fact was? Knowing what we know about psychology and the myriad of reasons one can manipulate reality (in their own mind), can even personal experience(s) create a believer out of a reasonable person? I really do not think so.

Type 5. Government admission:

Ok, the time has come for full disclosure and our worlds governments have come clean providing decades of evidence. Do we trust them? Can we be sure this is not just a ploy? What are they really up to and why now? To be honest, this is the least kind of evidence I would ever let persuade my belief(s).

Type 6. Daily visibility:

Ok, so the sky is full of UFO's doing incredible things. "Alien beings" are around for everyone to see, hear, smell, touch. This has to be proof right? You would just have to believe now, yes? Not so quick... How do we know the PTB are not just unleashing secret tech in the form of astonishing areal craft, and showcasing their 'unknown' genetic engineering in the form of "alien beings" to further some hidden agenda? Could we say for certain now this must be aliens? Would we have to believe now? I'm not so sure...


After all of this, I really find it almost impossible to believe in Aliens and yet I do not disbelieve. I know it is going to be impossible for me personally to ever get the proof required to usher in 'Belief' but I simply can not discard the evidence either. What a mind job huh? Anyway, what would it take for you to fully embrace that Aliens are visiting us, assuming you already do not, and 100% believe? Not 90% or even 98% but 100% believe?




posted on Sep, 19 2015 @ 07:46 PM
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a reply to: HomeBrew

If personal experience isn't compelling enough what else do you have? All other evidence must be presented through personal experience. Can you believe anything 100%? Can you be sure your typing this for real and not just imagining it while drugged and restrained in a mental institute? Perhaps it would be better to ask what evidence would give you the same level of confidence as in the other things you believe?



posted on Sep, 19 2015 @ 07:57 PM
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a reply to: HomeBrew


I know it is going to be impossible for me personally to ever get the proof required to usher in 'Belief' but I simply can not discard the evidence either.


Ya know...that should be a huge RED FLAG for you...it is telling you that your expectations, your "requirements" are unreasonable...perhaps you should rethink your requirements, and options and find a solution that is actually workable...you know something that might actually exist in the REAL world...

By the way; my idea of data...virtually any relevant items scientifically acquired...This would include properly acquired photographic data, and experiential reports...though in most cases the data would not be from a single source...

And would of course would include a level of data analysis not thought of here at ATS...



posted on Sep, 19 2015 @ 07:59 PM
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People are ignorant, preocupied and over expecting. You could tell them what's true or not but it really doesn't matter. Non of it does. Because in the end we are floating in a rock in space with only a maximum of 120 years per person in an eternal universe where a persons life can't even be measured in meaningful time, Only by the wobble of the planet on its axis as it shifts between seasons.

In the end, once you know what's out there. Personal oppinion does not matter. You could show humanity the evidence of what's visiting earth but the vast majority of humanity would want to disbelieve or ignore it out of sheer terror.
Even in the face of disclosure, what's out there is terrorfying beyond comprehension. And since it is here, regardless of public oppinion non it matters.

We will all know the truth when it is to late, and when it is to late it won't matter. But at least for me, i will know. And having knowledge of what humanity is up against gives me time to contemplate our existance in multipul perspectives. It must truely suck for all those who are wondering. But i garentee those that wonder would wish to remove the knowledge of what exists if they had a choice. Their future selves would tell the memories of themselves in the passed to put their heads in the sand and to remain blissfully ignorant.

I could tell you the truth. That existance in this universe is a real life adventure horror story. But again, only those without such knowledge and experience require evidence. By the time you get it. It's to late.



posted on Sep, 19 2015 @ 08:18 PM
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While it is true I am perhaps jaded in what my requirements are with regards to believing in alien visitation, I do believe they are valid. What type of evidence can not be convincingly faked, personal experience not withstanding? Please make no mistake here, I am only and specifically speaking about alien encounters on earth. I tend to think I am a rational person and if subjected personally perhaps I would believe in my personal experiences, but then again perhaps not... But for the topic/question at hand, everyone so far is a 100% believer? why? I'm not here to pick anyone's belief apart nor even question it, just curious what was the lynch pin.



posted on Sep, 19 2015 @ 08:23 PM
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a reply to: HomeBrew

because i am an alien witness and contactee, so i am a statistic in your post.



posted on Sep, 19 2015 @ 08:30 PM
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originally posted by: AnuTyr
a reply to: HomeBrew

because i am an alien witness and contactee, so i am a statistic in your post.



Please, do not read my post that way. I was simply trying to relay my own feelings on the matter and by no means set anyone up for persecution because of what they believe. If you knew me then you would know I grew up in a haunted house, and suffered from demonic attacks most of my life. I am in no position to judge anyone. In fact, I believe I already stated I do not disbelieve, I just am not sure what it would actually take for me to believe in earth bound aliens given the technology we have today. I know most of what I say about aliens could be easily transferred to my beliefs in my own experiences with the paranormal, but in all fairness I question the validity of my belief there in every day.



posted on Sep, 19 2015 @ 08:47 PM
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a reply to: HomeBrew

I understand. You asked a question about why the comments on here are pro-alien, i was just answering your question.

What would it take to believe 100% in aliens though? Well if you have a personal encounter with E.T and saw some technology you would know 100% unless you forced yourself to forget.

As for the average joe figuring out without evidence? It's unlikely. I personally believe the government is supressing E.T visitation as much as possible because the E.T are abducting people and to the understanding of the military are invading air space. They will never disclose what is occupying the authentic alien crafts. But as for them developing their own space age weapons and crafts, they would disclose if they were in mass production. It would be difficult to mass produce thousands of anti-gravity vehicles without information being leaked by pilots.

Pilots have been well known to leak information given the sheer volume of those who participate there will be enough that tell family, friends, and even break vows and disclose to news or other outlets. Either way, for what is visiting earth. From what i have seen and what they are capable of. It's highly unlikly the government will disclose the exact species simply because of what they are.

IF they were biological entities with skin bones and blood it wouldn't be so much a problem. If the government disclosed that a ghost like alien species is engaging in earth. There would be disblief, and if they disclosed photographic evidence of the entities themselves, videos and disclosed what the crafts looked like. There would be public panic 100%.

Here's a comparison. You show people a picture of an authentic 50 foot shark jumping out of the atlantic ocean live on the news. And the people who watch it arn't going to want to go in the water or take a boat ride.

If you show people a shapeshifting poltergeistish entity is visiting earth taking kids and that they often appear as pitch black immune to physical contact shadows.

All the religious and spiritualist people who believe in demons and shadow people are going to chant dooms day. People arn't going to want to go outside and kids arn't going to want to sleep with the lights off. Society just would not function the way it is now and like i was saying. People will wish they had their heads in the sand and could rewind to the time before they knew. Because there is very real things out there that people simply don't want to know. Even people who want to know won't want to know the moment they finally know.



posted on Sep, 19 2015 @ 08:56 PM
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AnuTyr, thanks for taking the time to post in the thread. And suspending my not-so-fully belief in Alien visitation for the moment, I absolutely agree with you. I have been involved in researching (for personal use only) the phenomena for a few decades now and all of my conclusions align with what you are saying. I guess the truth is I really do not want to believe, that is to say I would not want the personal experience(s) usually required for full belief.



posted on Sep, 19 2015 @ 09:06 PM
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a reply to: HomeBrew

If you can handle it then all power to you. I'm just saying, for you to know is one thing in of itself. But to have pure evidence to convince anyone? They wouldn't want to know. The average person who has experiences that can be described as demonic wouldn't want to know. Most people who have extreme paranormal experiences wish the experiences would leave them alone.

How often are people calling in priests and spiritualists to excorsize a *Demon* from a house and it doesn't work?

Would the government just disclose, Oh well there is an alien species engaging in our planet that can fit in such a description as a *phantom* with 2/3s of the worlds population being sun worshipping follows of religions like christianity, Islam, Buddism ect. All believing in light and angels. To just go out push documents and evidence of Darkness and what these 2/3rds of the population would believe were demons just is begging for social unrest.

The other quarter of humanity will be like, Well im never sleeping again.



posted on Sep, 19 2015 @ 09:12 PM
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You don't have to believe me either. Just view it as a perspective.



posted on Sep, 19 2015 @ 10:20 PM
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a reply to: HomeBrew

I already believe in the possibility of intelligent life throughout the Universe. I also don't believe we'd recognize most forms of intelligent extraterrestrial life because they wouldn't be limited to what we can perceive. But I'll play along anyway.


Type 1. Personal testimony:

Personal testimony means nothing to me. I take in words from nearly all sources, but I treat them all with the same skepticism. If it's someone I already trust, I'll take their words more seriously. But even then, I'd try to determine if there were other explanations.


Type 2. Photographic evidence:

Unfortunately, image manipulation software is so good that no photographic evidence is credible now. It's simply too easy for anyone to use a free image editor to make something "believable".


Type 3. Video evidence:

See answer for #2.


Type 4. Personal experience(s):

Far more likely to believe something from personal experience. That's the reason I know God, Shaytan, God's Angels, and Hell are real. I was never a follower because of Scriptures or the Prophets of old. So yeah, personal experience would help convince me to an extent.


Type 5. Government admission:

Wouldn't mean much to me. Politicians & bureaucrats have lied so much that I'd still be skeptical. Then again, most of my skepticism on this is because I don't believe ETs would be humanoids or creatures we could understand.

Kind of like how we are far more advanced than earthworms, but we still can't communicate with them. And they probably aren't even capable of fully perceiving us. As in, we could hold an earthworm in our hands but it still wouldn't recognize us, wouldn't be able to understand our languages, and wouldn't know what our technology was. We could even put one in a microwave, heat it, then eat it, and it still wouldn't have had the slightest idea what happened. I'd be far more likely to believe it if is was something like NASA footage showing signs of ET culture or the such.


Type 6. Daily visibility:

Hmm, I dunno. There are a lot of things that are visible that can be misinterpreted.
edit on 19-9-2015 by enlightenedservant because: clarified #5



posted on Sep, 20 2015 @ 03:57 AM
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a reply to: HomeBrew

For me, nothing is enough proof, i have seen crafts, and had one close encounter, saw it, it communicated telepathically with me,
i still cant "believe", i am a piece of meat and bones, manipulation is not difficult. what is, and is not real anyway?

This hole place and space is an illusion, covered by layers of lies.



posted on Sep, 20 2015 @ 04:14 AM
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a reply to: HomeBrew

Well there has to be something out there it's a numbers thing BUT that is also the problem, what do I mean well the absolute vastness of what we are dealing with. We are in a Galaxy with a few hundred billion stars with large distances between them. We are in a spiral arm about 25,000 light years from the center, as the Milky Way is about 100,000 light years across the furthest stars in our own Galaxy are 75,000 light years from us.

We have the Large & Small Magellenic clouds 2 small dwarf Galaxies visible in the Southern Hemisphere about 160,000 & 200,000 light years away, our nearest large Galaxy M31 The Andromeda Galaxy is about 2.5 Million light years away.

Those distance also mean time so even if life evolved eleswhere they could have lived & died out before we even appeared on Earth, we are here purley by LUCK millions of different events happening in a different way could have meant we never appeared the same for life on any other planet


As for proof photographic or video proof that could be enough if the images are clear and are backed up by exif data on images or multiple sources, most of the ones on here fail because of quality or mistakes by hoaxers.

Although images can be digitally recreated they are not 100% perfect, if you look at most ufo threads on here of youtube videos or from images they are usually poor quality from camera phones at night or from a lack of understaning of the best way to use the equipment especially on night time pictures/videos.

As camera technology improves the number of these images will probably drop, now if you have a quick look at this video below, if the nightime ufo videos posted on the net were taken with equipment like this we may have proof one way or the other. Once the camera gets to 1600 iso that's what the scene look to the naked eye.



All the hoaxers on youtube that video dots of light in the sky would s$%t themselves if someone appeared next to them using a camera like that that and a good wide aperture telephoto lens.

That technology will fliter down into cheaper cameras, as a keen photographer and a Sony SLT DSLR user if I had the spare cash for that I would buy it.

I think it's out there somewhere but I don't think Mog from Zog takes day trips to Earth.

The strange thing is that this could really be settled within a few days as we have a group of members on here that claim regular visits & sightings and they can communicate with the ufo's/occupants yet when challenge they can NEVER put their money were their keyboard so to speak.


edit on 20-9-2015 by wmd_2008 because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-9-2015 by wmd_2008 because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-9-2015 by wmd_2008 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2015 @ 04:47 AM
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a reply to: HomeBrew

Personal experience has been enough for me to accept that there are things seen in the sky that can't currently be explained. From that point, it becomes reasonable to conjecture that at least some similar claims will also be honest and accurate. It's also rational to allow for a little leeway in the descriptive accounts of others.

For example, the object we saw was a red light that performed manoeuvres at a speed that isn't currently possible. If another person then claims they saw a different-coloured object doing the same thing, it's intuitive to consider they are being truthful. In terms of leeway, if someone says they saw an object in daylight behaving the same way, but described as a disc, I'd entertain the possibility.

If I was then to read similar examples in, say, Project Blue Book and the preceding Grudge would it be foolish to identify with them? I don't think so.

In contrast, when someone who hasn't had that experience feels obliged to say that all sightings can be explained, I have to disagree. When someone says it's all Cold War psyops, I can't completely agree. Neither does the 'secret tech' explanation work or temperature inversions. Cultural will-to-believe isn't always an explanation either and demonstrably not when more than one person describes seeing the same thing.

Ultimately, I have my *proof* that something potentially extraordinary is experienced by groups and individuals. Despite reading from all sides of the topic, nothing has convinced me of aliens. Who knows?



posted on Sep, 20 2015 @ 05:47 AM
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a reply to: HomeBrew


I am impressed by your post, because you have a good sense of logical balance within your experiences, and many don't.

For the best example, you state that what is true for you based on what you have seen, heard, and personally evaluated, etc. and that is rare here. The debunker type of skeptics here believe that their own conclusions are facts that everyone must believe or they lack brain power. This is because their views make sense to them within the confines of evidence they say they have seen/not seen. And new evidence that challenges their "facts" are usually ignored or discredited with no research being done by them, because why should they research something they "know" is false, hoax, etc.? That is the usual debunker mind set here.

I personally know that some UFO's , saucers, etc, are extra terrestrial, or more simply put, "Non Human technology" Based on personal sightings, families sightings suffering psychological effects afterwards. And Friends who held high positions in the FAA who witnessed large saucer craft landing at big city international airports like they were taking a coffee break, then flying away. The FAA procedures remain unchanged today, in that they ignore the object, divert traffic, and don't tell anyone about it at all. (Until well after they retire).
I believe from what I have learned from credible sources, that some of these visitors are facing their own serious and even potentially species ending crisis', which they have developed sophisticated programs to deal with, that do not show morals, honor, ethics as we know them, nor compassion for the tasks they are doing. And so, it proves that high intelligence and development is not a trait that will force a species to have those higher values when they face potentially devastating consequences. And some visitors are downright evil in all they do here, like the "Chupa Chupa" of Brazil that had light spheres or orbs shooting out bolts of energy at the populace of a small coastal fishing village which was reported to "steal" the townsfolk life force where they never got back that energy even decades later, and were permanently weakened and injured by them. A doctor learned about it from the many cases that appeared in her clinic, which she didn't believe at first, until she witnessed the phenomenon close up, but the object did not harm her, or her assistant for some reason. The orbs took peoples blood, and energy, and left serious injuries which killed several people.

The same area also had an event where 2 creatures who looked like little devils were seen running around and scaring people by growling at them, and then a young policeman tried to capture one which touched him on his arm, and a week or 2 later, the policeman died from massive infections as if his immune system had been neutralized by the creature.

The Brazilian Army then stated in a press release they had captured the creatures, but that they were just 2 human dwarves. Of course they didn't mention why the Army would be in the business of rounding up human dwarves in the first place..

The mountains of data that show a clear program(s) being done by multiple intelligences including many declassified documents and memos offer the conclusion that some are indeed interplanetary and non human entities involved. Some reports say these creatures have earth based bases under the oceans and have been camped here for millennia doing their own programs which have not ended well for those they have targeted. To believe it is all bunk, is to simply dismiss all the witnesses, but it is still the safest way to go because of the multi million dollar per year disinformation campaign done by AFOSI within the Air Force to keep the issue taboo, and off limits.
edit on 20-9-2015 by NoCorruptionAllowed because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2015 @ 08:52 AM
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originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
a reply to: HomeBrew

And Friends who held high positions in the FAA who witnessed large saucer craft landing at big city international airports like they were taking a coffee break, then flying away. The FAA procedures remain unchanged today, in that they ignore the object, divert traffic, and don't tell anyone about it at all. (Until well after they retire).


Obvious question big city international airports and NO reports from anyone else inside or outside or from the big city doesn't add up does it



posted on Sep, 20 2015 @ 09:20 AM
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a reply to: HomeBrew

You have quite well described the mental process of how the whole deal is being done. The "deal" being how the ETs have spent over half a century of plying us with visual clues and some direct intervention into our little world that, half a century ago, hardly believed in space travel as possible and certainly from the foremost scientists down to the common man didn't believe that life existed anywhere but on this one, solitary, and magical place called Earth.

In short, now everybody can know--if they care to look--at the fallacy of human superiority with the clues given by the UFOs and our own growing awareness of how the Universe really is much bigger than our former views. Coming to terms with that, as you fully display, is the problem.

The full connections have not been made. Cognitive dissidence is a stubborn roadblock in the reluctant human mind to rational thinking about simple facts that clearly show the truth but yet strongly reveal implications. The possible horrors of that truth are simply too much for the average human to fully accept. So there is a necessary and subtle creep toward the full impact. Every day we learn more and more data about why we cannot be alone, why God isn't out there but ETs are, yet we ignore and deny the evidence.

If we, our personal selves, our nation, our globe are not the center of the Universe, then, in essence, our intensely held personal philosophies are crushed. Life was what was assumed, and worse, will be not as expected.. The spirit of humanity may well be irreparably altered at that wakening. On that problem alone, the fate of humanity rest. Can we be bigger than ourselves and flourish in a new Renaissance or descend into a new Dark Age? The future certainly is not clear at this point.



posted on Sep, 20 2015 @ 09:20 AM
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The ultimate proof is the eye witness testimony of police officers, military personnel, airplane pilots, and astronauts.



posted on Sep, 20 2015 @ 11:00 AM
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originally posted by: HomeBrew
However to say I believe that Aliens are visiting the earth, or abducting humans, or working with our government, or any other number of conspiracy related conjecture relating the aliens, is just not true (for me).


When the abduction cases started to be researched around late 60's and 70's, worrisome patterns started to appear that couldn't be denied. Details in the abduction recollections were so concordant between eachother that it was logically assumed something real must be happening. Besides, there were several cases where you had external wtinesses, multiple 'abductees' at the same time, physical traces on the surroundings and the bodies of the victims, and so on. Not only that, but some time later the abductee's children started to relate and draw about 'monsters coming at night', and the descriptions were exactly the same, despite the parents won't talk about such experiences with their children.

If your truly analize these events in deep, you have to arrive unequivocally to a clear conclusion:

- (At least some of) These events are real, physical, and they're controlled intelligently.

The real unknown factor here, is, WHO is the power behind. Some would argue that the government or the military was the culprit. Problem is, the technology displayed simply won't fit, sigh, not even the current technology, and the testimony of the abductees point to not-human, humanoid beings.

That said, you can try to deepen looking for answers departing from the already known facts (the most reasonable position) or continue denying, ignoring, attributing nonsensical explanations, etc.



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