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originally posted by: EvillerBob
originally posted by: theantediluvian
What should we make of this incident? Is Donald trump a deaf as his campaign manager would have us believe, is he simply a coward for not wanting to alienate the Islamaphobes and birthers in the conservative base or is he still a birther but realizes that saying so only makes him sound more crazy than he already does?
As an EU-based outsider looking in at this debate, I'm confused? I thought Obama was a muslim? Not based on what Trump has said, just based on what Obama has said and done.
There's nothing wrong with Obama being a muslim, I just didn't realise it was a matter of contention.
originally posted by: EvillerBob
As an EU-based outsider looking in at this debate, I'm confused? I thought Obama was a muslim? Not based on what Trump has said, just based on what Obama has said and done.
There's nothing wrong with Obama being a muslim, I just didn't realise it was a matter of contention.
originally posted by: lakesidepark
It is neither Trump's responsibility nor is it within his RIGHTS to 'chastise' a questioner on his opinions of Obama.
originally posted by: lakesidepark
The questions about Obama's religion and his status as 'natural-born' citizen are NOT settled questions.
originally posted by: FelisOrion
a reply to: theantediluvian
I say it once, and I'll say it again: Trump supporters scare the hell out of me. They are so brainwashed it's scary. It's like watching Jim Jones Followers.
originally posted by: hellobruce
Yes they are settled, remember how the US courts have declared Obama is a natural born US citizen? Also every silly birther court case, over 200 of them, have failed as Obama is a natural born US citizen!
originally posted by: lakesidepark
I do remember several federal leftist court judges refusing to hear the cases and grant the petitioners standing to present the cases
...there is also suspicion that these courts were manipulated by the administration
It is further suspected that the games Obama played with releasing his BC
had less to do with his place of birth than it did with the possibility that the BC identified him as a Muslim.
originally posted by: Logarock
originally posted by: FelisOrion
a reply to: theantediluvian
I say it once, and I'll say it again: Trump supporters scare the hell out of me. They are so brainwashed it's scary. It's like watching Jim Jones Followers.
Trump doesn't have nearly the dozy headed pie in the sky, hope and change sort of thing going on. Lots and lots of cool aid passed out back in those days.
originally posted by: MotherMayEye
originally posted by: amazing
I disagree, because if there was anything to it, it would have been found and broadcast loudly. You're telling me the billionaires like Trump and the Koch brothers to name just two people that could have funded some serious research into it and paid off some people and fox news, drudge, limbaugh and all the rest would have been broadcasting anything found for years.
They haven't, nothing more than insinuations and small investigations. Meaning there must be nothing there and it's just a smear campaign.
No. You're wrong. I wrote an open records request to the Hawaii Department of Health, in 2011, and requested a copy of the seal that was photographed by Factcheck.org, on the back of Obama's short form birth certificate. They responded that they did not maintain the seal photographed. I asked because I noticed the seal on his birth certificate was debossed -- not embossed. And I noticed Factcheck captioned a photo of the wrong side of the seal and labeled it as being raised (embossed).
Immediately after I got that response, Donald Trump took a sudden interest in calling for Obama's long form birth certificate. Obama released it and all eyes were diverted to it, forevermore.
I spent enough time trying to get the media to acknowledge the response I received to tell you -- they would never report what i found.
And I am an atheist, as socially liberal as anyone you could ever meet, and completely nonpartisan.
My curiosity about the issue just got the best of me. Something was off about the issue from day one.
originally posted by: amazing
You're missing the bigger point. Do you not think that with all of the resources at their disposal that Republicans couldn't have forced this issue? It doesn't make any sense. Why only a few talk radio and small blog personalities pushing this issue? It must mean that the ones who control the republican party wanted Obama in power over Romney. Where's the sense in that? That conspiracy is too deep to even comprehend.
Simplifying it. Occam's razor dictates that he simplest answer is usually the correct one.
You see what I'm saying, right?
HAR§11-1-2 – Seal of the department of health.
(b) The official seal of the department of health shall be EMBOSSED near the signature of the director of health to verify commissions of appointment of deputy directors and notaries public, certificates, and other formal official documents on which the official seal has been customarily used or is appropriate to be used, as the director of health may determine on a case-by-case basis.
Hawaii Public Health Regulations, Chapter 8b
2.4 Issuance of Certified Copies of Vital Records
B. Standards for Copies of Vital Records
(1) Standard Copy
(b) Form of certification. Standard certified copies shall contain an appropriate certification statement over the signature of the registrar having custody of the record and be impressed with the RAISED seal of the issuing office. The signature may be photographed or entered by mechanical means. The paper shall display the official seal of the Department of Health or the seal of the State.
(2) Abbreviated Copy
(b) Form of certification. This will be the same as for a standard certified copy.
I respond to your inquiry generally as follows: I believe that a copy in printed form must be disclosed, but that it is likely that DOH may refuse to provide a blank piece of paper with the actual RAISED EMBOSSED seal under the UIPA's frustration exception because the embossed seal is used only for the purpose of authenticating official records. Thus, to provide a copy in that form would frustrate DOH's function of maintaining the integrity of its official records. HRS § 92F-13(3). I cannot speak to something that may have been given to the printer to create the actual device used without more information.
Based on your request, we provide you with a copy of the Department of Health seal as described in HAR §11-1-2; this seal is an EMBOSSMENT.
Attached is a graphited copy of the EMBOSSED Department of Health seal. Regarding the remainder of your request, we have no records responsive to your request.
"The Hawaii Department of Health receives about a dozen e-mail inquiries a day about Obama's birth certificate, spokesman Okubo said.
"I guess the big issue that's being raised is the lack of an EMBOSSED seal and a signature," Okubo said, pointing out that in Hawaii, both those things are on the back of the document. "Because they scanned the front … you wouldn't see those things."
Okubo says she got a copy of her own birth certificate last year and it is identical to the Obama one we received.
And about the copy we e-mailed her for verification? "When we looked at that image you guys sent us, our registrar, he thought he could see pieces of the EMBOSSED image through it."
Still, she acknowledges: "I don't know that it's possible for us to even say beyond a doubt what the image on the site represents."
“In the State of Hawaii all certified copies of certificates of live birth have the EMBOSSED seal and registrar signature on the back of the document.”
I spoke to Ms. Okubo late Wednesday afternoon, and she said she had seen the version of Obama’s certificate of live birth posted on the sites. While her office cannot verify the information on a form without the permission of the certificate holder (Obama), she said “the form is exactly the same” and it has “all the components of a birth certificate” record issued by the state. In other words, she sees no reason to think the version posted on Obama’s web site and Daily Kos is not genuine.
The “EMBOSSED SEAL” in question is, she said, probably on the back of the document provided to Daily Kos, but not visible (as in another certificate posted on Israel Insider for contrast). She thinks the difference in visibility can be attributed to the pressure used when applying the seal.
originally posted by: MotherMayEye
originally posted by: amazing
You're missing the bigger point. Do you not think that with all of the resources at their disposal that Republicans couldn't have forced this issue? It doesn't make any sense. Why only a few talk radio and small blog personalities pushing this issue? It must mean that the ones who control the republican party wanted Obama in power over Romney. Where's the sense in that? That conspiracy is too deep to even comprehend.
Simplifying it. Occam's razor dictates that he simplest answer is usually the correct one.
You see what I'm saying, right?
Ha! No, in my opinion, you are missing the larger point: The two parties are influenced by the same Global Establishment.
And here's my Occam's Razor Test:
The Hawaii Department of Health (HDOH) stated they do not maintain the seal debossment photographed on Obama's short form birth certificate. I was personally sent that response from the Hawaii Department of Health (HDOH) in response to an open records request I sent under the Uniform Information Practices Act.
For me to believe that I am somehow mistaken or they lied, I would have to overlook the following:
1. The Hawaii Administrative Rules describe the official HDOH seal and require that it be "embossed" when used by the Director of Health in an official capacity. The rules give the Director exclusive control over the reproduction and use of the seal, but the discretion to deviate from the stated description of the official seal is restricted to size changes only:
HAR§11-1-2 – Seal of the department of health.
(b) The official seal of the department of health shall be EMBOSSED near the signature of the director of health to verify commissions of appointment of deputy directors and notaries public, certificates, and other formal official documents on which the official seal has been customarily used or is appropriate to be used, as the director of health may determine on a case-by-case basis.
2. The Hawaii Department of Health vital records regulations promulgated by the Director of Health state the seal used by their agency and the Office of Health Status Monitoring (OHSM) to issue certified copies of vital records must be a "raised" seal:
Hawaii Public Health Regulations, Chapter 8b
2.4 Issuance of Certified Copies of Vital Records
B. Standards for Copies of Vital Records
(1) Standard Copy
(b) Form of certification. Standard certified copies shall contain an appropriate certification statement over the signature of the registrar having custody of the record and be impressed with the RAISED seal of the issuing office. The signature may be photographed or entered by mechanical means. The paper shall display the official seal of the Department of Health or the seal of the State.
[AND]
(2) Abbreviated Copy
(b) Form of certification. This will be the same as for a standard certified copy.
gen.doh.hawaii.gov... 8A B VR Admin Rules.pdf
3. A written statement from Hawaii's Office of Information Practices (OIP) indicates that the HDOH's seal is embossed. On December 14, 2010, Cathy Takase, OIP Acting Director made the following statement in response to an inquiry pertaining to a request for copies of the HDOH official seal made under Hawaii's Open Records Law, the Uniform Information Practices Act (UIPA):
I respond to your inquiry generally as follows: I believe that a copy in printed form must be disclosed, but that it is likely that DOH may refuse to provide a blank piece of paper with the actual RAISED EMBOSSED seal under the UIPA's frustration exception because the embossed seal is used only for the purpose of authenticating official records. Thus, to provide a copy in that form would frustrate DOH's function of maintaining the integrity of its official records. HRS § 92F-13(3). I cannot speak to something that may have been given to the printer to create the actual device used without more information.
5. Two written statements directly issued by staff at the HDOH through open records requests indicate their official seal is an embossment. On December 4 and December 10, 2010, HDOH Public Information Staff wrote the following and disclosedcopies of two raised seals in response to request made under the UIPA for a copy of the HDOH official seal:
Based on your request, we provide you with a copy of the Department of Health seal as described in HAR §11-1-2; this seal is an EMBOSSMENT.
AND
Attached is a graphited copy of the EMBOSSED Department of Health seal. Regarding the remainder of your request, we have no records responsive to your request.
5. Janice Okubo, Director of Communications for the Hawaii Department of Health stated on multiple occasions, in 2008, that the seal used to certify copies of birth records in Hawaii is embossed on the back of those type copies. Politifact reported the following about the 'invisible seal' in the initial images released of Obama's alleged COLB:
"The Hawaii Department of Health receives about a dozen e-mail inquiries a day about Obama's birth certificate, spokesman Okubo said.
"I guess the big issue that's being raised is the lack of an EMBOSSED seal and a signature," Okubo said, pointing out that in Hawaii, both those things are on the back of the document. "Because they scanned the front … you wouldn't see those things."
Okubo says she got a copy of her own birth certificate last year and it is identical to the Obama one we received.
And about the copy we e-mailed her for verification? "When we looked at that image you guys sent us, our registrar, he thought he could see pieces of the EMBOSSED image through it."
Still, she acknowledges: "I don't know that it's possible for us to even say beyond a doubt what the image on the site represents."
www.politifact.com...
www.snopes.com...
www.snopes.com...
Continued below....
originally posted by: amazing
But the problem is this: Why isn't anyone with any power pushing this and investigating this? Why are right wing pundits, insinuating things rather then pushing them?
You may be right, but how come the hundreds of millions of people that hate Obama aren't pursuing this, why just you?
originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: amazing
NOT if SOROs covered it up with bigger money,it wouldn't