Continuing Challenge to Creationists

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Phantom423

We have to accept that in this universe at least, there are no absolutes.

Accepted. Now tell me again, what is the proposition we are supposed to be debating (or discussing, if you prefer)?

Scientific investigation is conducted when a question has some evidence one way or another that can be tested and analyzed. A divine entity has no such evidence.

That sounds like a shortcoming of the scientific method, not an advantage.

Besides, I put it to you (as I did before, though you may have missed it) that the Paleyan argument for Creation is actually a very powerful one, and despite the advent of Darwin and the massive advances evolutionary science has made since the latter's day, it has not yet been refuted.

The discussion is science that can be backed up by evidence and pseudo science which has no evidence.

The Paley argument only addressed the idea of an intelligent designer. Paley never compared intelligent design to evolution because the concept of evolution and natural selection only came about with Darwin.

It's rather easy to refute Paley's argument. He constructed an analogy between a watch and the universe i.e. that the watch had to have a designer because of its complexity. Therefore, the universe had a designer because of its complexity. Hence, there had to be a God who was the original designer. But anyone can see how a watch is made - involving many people and instruments - whereas no one has ever seen a universe being made. In order to have an analogy, both sides must have a commonality for comparison. The universe and a watch have nothing in common other than that they both exist.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
Nope, the huge amounts of energy being transformed into matter and then expanding into the void of nothing billions of years ago to start our universe off looks like a "big bang",

You just proved my point by responding with a straw man about the big bang.

I have no issue with the science behind that. After all this time of back and forth, and you STILL don't know what I believe, a shame really.

I apologize, I should have said, "people in your camp", rather than you personally. That is what I intended. I don't really care about personal beliefs. I care about the integrity of science.

I leave where all that energy came from, for another thread.
That's what I do like about you Barcs you always give me idea's for new threads.

Great. I know I'm going to regret responding.

originally posted by: Phantom423

originally posted by: SuperFrog
Is it me or number of people believing in creationist claims on ATS has dropped?!

I remember live discussions here on ATS in regards to creation myth, but now whole forum is kind of dead with overwhelming evidence being found on daily bases that points to evolution.

Interesting time we live in...

It's the disappearing act that always happens when the rational side posts overwhelming evidence that they can't match. The pro science posters continually add to the quality and quantity of evidence. The Creationists may have run their course. In that case, I guess we won

We didn't change any minds. We just pushed them into hiding until such time as they think they can come out and start all over again. By that time, I hope that the library is relatively complete so the pro side can use the links.

In any case, we'll be here when they think the coast is clear and they come out of hiding!

Eh...this whole thread has been spent quibbling and stalling. Never even got started on a real debate.

originally posted by: Astyanax

You guys keep acting like evolution is a personal preference choice like blue vs red. It's not.

Why not, exactly?

Well, it's not personal opinion, it is based on physical evidence. I can try to argue with somebody until I'm blue in the face that Pepsi is better than Coke, but there isn't any demonstrable evidence to prove one way or the other. Taste is relative, some folks like sweet, some like bitter. Some like country, some like rock n roll, some like hip hop, some like death metal. It is futile to argue that any one of those things is better than the others, because it is personal taste.

Now, I understand that many BELIEVE that acknowledging evolution as science is a personal preference choice, but it isn't, just like believing in gravity, atomic theory, heliocentric solar system model or countless other things that have been objectively verified. I feel this is crux of the matter right here. It's all in their perception, which is faulty.

Either you agree that science teaches us things about the earth and universe or you don't.

What if you don't?

If somebody does not, then I feel the person should be consistent with this view toward all science instead of cherry picking certain fields to be at odds with due to scripture conflicts. The creationist/evolution denier crowd attacks evolution vigorously as if it can't possibly be true, while actively using tons of other products of science in their daily lives. I'm not going to judge somebody because they live under a rock and refuse to acknowledge science for what it is. If that's their opinion, and that's how they want to live, I have no problem with that whatsoever. It's the fallacious cherry picking that grinds my gears, so to speak.

I have no problem with people choosing to believe a worldview, god or religion. I only have a problem with the ones that do, claim it is fact (ID or creation science). I think this is kind of why you posted the questions, because science is based on evidence and creation is based on opinion, so you can't really have a debate on the subject, you can only correct the misunderstandings of science.

And of course, I over explained everything again...

a reply to: SuperFrog

hey, I wont my brains to fall out, cuz they are in the way!

half joking, halt truth as I am pointing towards Ego, which is a something to be in a way left behind when pursuing spirituality.

How can you say there is nothing. Experiments are all over the place. Just google it, many scientists and other people conducted a lot of various stuff, and there was always higher success rate percentage, then it should be by calculating mathematically how heigh success rate should be if it were random. And in general the experiments are showing that things are not random. You cant disprove mathematics, can you? I mean if something is outside of randomness, than that means it is not random and there is something which is affecting the results, right?

And just because science can not measure that something you are denying the possibility that there is something going on. Just because our machines can not detect it yet? isn't that biased or close minded?

I have heard about those people and their money reword for some ability. But what they are missing is that ordinary people like us have almost no control over these events. The control is more like intuition, sometimes it misses but a lot of times is on the mark. But I think there are people who have mastered the mind and can preform "miracles" but to them this all seems so meaningless and they don't bother. Don't ask me why. It must be spiritual thing or something, that those people don't came foreword in such public manner. Maybe this knowledge is not for the masses because we would ruin ourself faster than we are doing it already? Great power comes with great responsibility, which is lacking by major amount in our society.

Oh and I just remembered. In one of my posts I mentioned about discovery of prana in science. Well today I just browsed old threads here and I noticed some of them about Wilhelm Reich and Orgone energy. So this was already done in science! What did the government do? They burned all of his research papers?! Why would they do that? I smell stinking smell of conspiracy. Do they always burn something if it is just bunk?

Now, many argue that this orgone is bunk. But is it really? You have some members here which have made their own orgone devices and they testify that it is real! You can read all about it here on ATS.
Then you have animals which are attracted to orgone devices especially snakes or reptiles and people all over the world are using them and commenting that it is real, with real beneficial health effects. But guess what? It is not scientifically detected and because of that it was dropped.

a reply to: UniFinity

"Orgone energy is widely dismissed as pseudo science". There are links in the article section.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

But yes, it's such a shame that imagination doesn't qualify as evidence. Those scientists really should be more flexible with their investigations.

a reply to: TzarChasm

haha maybe. But what if? you know..

What if our measurements are not good enough and must be developed further to detect this all pervading infinity energy.
What if they burned all of his material because there was truth in it?
what if...

I think we can all agree that there are things waiting to be discovered. What if this is just one of them? So why are people blindly denying it. But when science will make a discovery, they will say it is an ongoing process. We did not know before. Look, That is OK and it is true for everything, not just science. So to put full faith in science or anything other except in yourself about what is and is not is wrong in my opinion.

It is the same as when you get really drunk and you forget about stuff. Then the next day when you are talking about it with friends you suddenly realize you don't know what was going on for half the night.
What you don't remember you don't know and it never happened from your point of view. From your point you are sure you remember everything, until you hear from others the full story

In case of scientist, they in general guess they know the full story....until they don't and discover something mind blowing.

I can tell you this much from personal experience. Some energy exists. prana, chi, Ki, aura, orgone,..etc.. we have all over the world different labels for it. And when you are relaxed in meditation you can feel it without a doubt. There are certain points or energy centres in our body (nadis, chakras, etc...) which can be felt. And this is clear to any meditator who is diving deep into himself and It is not a placebo. You can with focus and intent control it and feel it.
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added after edit:
I realize this is a bit off topic. I apologize for it. But it is connected. When one thinks they know almost everything or that such grand thing like all pervading energy can not be overlooked, that is arrogance! I mean look "few years" back, for some time people killed the ones who thought earth is not at the centre of the universe or is flat.
So suppose there is energy, infinity energy all around. Does that proves creationism? NO
So why am I even bothering with this?
It just shows that we do not know a lot. And relay far to much on our human senses/prospective and that there are things which we cannot detect for now.
It shows that this place is more deep than just the obvious visible material universe which we can experience with our senses.
it shows that there can be other planes of existence which we are totally ignorant of for now.

But it is OK, I understand that this is a hard pill to swallow to just accept that. And I am not asking that. But you know what? In any case I hope we certainly agree that we don't know everything and never will, everything is an ongoing process. So I think that the first thing we should all do is to drop our pride of what we think we know and be acceptable to other opinions without preconceptions. If we as humanity in general could learn that it would be a great first step to unification the pursuit of knowledge. don't deny, but don't blindly accept ether. Just go with the flow and try to get as much understanding as you can along the way.

WHAT IF?

a reply to: UniFinity

Yes, I suggest we don't open our brains too much... just as Dr. Minchin suggests...

Since earlier teens I was fascinated with paranormal stories and read few books about it, but once internet become good way to check the claims, everything I've read turn out to be hoax, false, and lie. Once, just to see if there is anything testable, I posted here on ATS to clear example of paranormal, and except some claiming internet is full of examples (no, it is not - but it is full of proven hoaxes) and was again pointed to couple of books (that I read and after a bit of internet search, turns out to be another set of hoaxes put together to sell the book).

Same goes for one of reason I first came to ATS (much before this date on this account, I had a previous account that I never retrieved) - ancient aliens. After much of reading, following interesting debates and absence of evidence, it is easy to conclude that we really have not much going for that hypothesis.

So please, by all means, if you can post evidence to some unnatural claims, please do so. Just don't tell me to google or that internet is full of it...

originally posted by: PhotonEffect
a reply to: Phantom423

I think the child abuse moniker is a bit much, but that's just me.

Are there universities that teach creationism?

Yes, but they are religious colleges and universities. Apparently, they all have to sign a statement that they will only teach Creationism and no other "science" that conflicts with that view. Sounds a little like the Nazis to me
answersingenesis.org...

a reply to: Astyanax

Nice post. You must be trained in philosophy or some related discipline.

As I mentioned early on when I joined ATS, I became interested in Creationism because my niece (by marriage) and her husband are deeply involved with Ken Ham's organization. They run a school and a bookstore devoted to Creationism. When I discussed it with her, I was appalled at the level of trust she placed in what this man and his organization were teaching. And it is blind trust.

The organization has a protocol that they teach their followers as to how to respond to questions about Creationism, particularly the science. Any critical thinking is discouraged.

The religious aspect is a sham. They use Christianity as a prop when in fact the organization is actually a cult in the true sense of the word “a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister”.

I really wanted to engage the Creationists on this board to see how they draw their conclusions. The outcome of these discussions is always the disappearing act, particularly after discussions in hard science. I told a few of them that the next time a doctor prescribes an MRI, X-Ray or a radioactive probe, remember to tell him/her that it doesn't work. That the science is false and can't be relied upon. That's usually the time they disappear into the ether.

I agree with your comments on reason, however, there is such a thing as enlightenment, or the “ah ha!” moment. I think that's the area where genius resides. Some call it thinking outside of the box. The brain is a tool that never stops working. But if you don't use it, you lose it. Creationists have signed off on critical thinking. They are discouraged from exercising their brain.

I've said it before – I think it's a dangerous scheme because just like political ideologies, it can be contagious. When people give up their intellectual independence, they give up their free will and the ability to make choices. They can be herded like cattle any way you want them to go. I don't think we want a world like that.

a reply to: SuperFrog

yes you are right and I agree about everything you posted, just not with the first sentence haha. But ... well I think that everyone here knows that there is not a valid proof by scientific standards for the question posted by OP or many other things - many even mentioned here. And maybe there never will be. But to disregard all claims on that basis is being to stuck with science. Because then that would point to science being all knowing and never wrong, but we are both aware that neither of those statements are true.

And also like you said, there are people who have hidden agendas and try to earn a buck or reputation by wiled claims and are counting on naive people to sell stuff to. This world is messed up ... no just people are messed up! and because of all the laying and untruthfulness we are in this mess were we cannot know for certain about anything in real life or especially on the internet. People are corrupted in all areas. Today money is the king - everywhere, even in science and I think that many scientist had mind blowing stuff to show, but they were shut down by the powers that be, because their ideas were to out of the box or would allow for people in general to live independently.

But you know what? I AM sure about myself and my experience. We all have that. It is the only absolute truth which I abide in!

a reply to: UniFinity

Incorrect. Science has never been wrong anymore than your butter knife has been wrong. Science is a tool, a method. It has no opinion. We are still learning to use it, and we make mistakes. But mistakes are good, they are the whetstone on which we sharpen our scalpels. A wiseman learns from others mistakes, a fool learns from none.

a reply to: UniFinity

So after all, there is no many examples on google, as you suggested earlier. Actually, there is no single example, just as you pointed in your last post.

Hoaxes, lies, people making fast buck on others by pretending to talk to dead... or everyone's favorite - horoscope - just idea that stars and constellation have anything to do with you and are tools to predict what will happen to you... one of old examples how people used 'mysticism' to sell thin air...

Dr. Dawkins pointed to this as Enemies of the Reason, and made documentary with the same name. Very interesting, covering many aspects of voodoo science creationist claim, or superstition and/or religion.

Video is available on youtube: (2 episodes in single video)



It is worth watching....

a reply to: TzarChasm

well you just decided to separate science from scientists. Where I did not make that distinction. I agree with you, you put it very nicely - I especially like what you said about mistakes. But you do realize the same can be said about anything.

For instance meditation is also just a tool. It is just a matter of preference with which we choose to progress through life and try to get some understanding or whatever you desire with the tools we like the most.

But in case of meditation. This tool is the only one available to work on your inner world. Well there are psychedelic drugs, but I would not recommend using them to learn about spirituality, but are great just for curiosity and for fun. But other than that we have no other tools available to work with or I am not aware them.

a reply to: UniFinity

For instance meditation is also just a tool. It is just a matter of preference with which we choose to progress through life and try to get some understanding or whatever you desire with the tools we like the most.

are you really comparing meditation with laboratory procedure?

nah. not even.

But in case of meditation. This tool is the only one available to work on your inner world. Well there are psychedelic drugs, but I would not recommend using them to learn about spirituality, but are great just for curiosity and for fun. But other than that we have no other tools available to work with or I am not aware them.

exactly. and a true scientist will favor doing it right over doing it soon.

patience is a virtue.

a reply to: SuperFrog

hey, you twist words! That is not nice.

Or at least you did not get my point.

There is a LOT of proof. Just not by your scientific standards which are based around measurements from machines which we build and are expected to detect anything we can perceive based on our human experience!

But there is proof, for instance mathematically proven by experiments made in parapsychology that there is something more going on outside of our senses. So yeah..google it out there is a ton of various research or read the book I mentioned before. They are scientist also but just not by expected standards by norms we have today. Because they cannot get validation by machines or repeated success 100% of the time. But the universe is not exact like that, even in evolution you have some animals which had wrong or bad mutations and they went extinct because evolution messed up.

But they can and they have got validation by math and calculating the random chance and comparing that with the successful results made by experiments and they are always outside FAR from randomness. I get that is know as pseudo science and as such not valid from pure scientific prospective. But that is your choice if you decide to ignore this stuff. I just choose not to.

here it is:
allreality.com...

to each his own I suppose

a reply to: TzarChasm

I am not comparing, just putting out a prospective that everything can be consider as a tool. Science, meditation, spirituality, archaeology, biology, physics, etc...

And a good scientist would do as you say, but there is more. A good scientist would take any opinion into account weather it is outside his beliefs or comfort zone and work with all the tools at his disposal. They are not biased.

a reply to: UniFinity

Here we go again... please decide if there is (and provide links to them) or not.

Don't forget, theory of relativity was all math, no practical tests were possible, but still it become theory, based on mathematical proof. Later test just provided further proof that theory is sound.

As for meditation, long time ago I was close to someone who is teaching meditation for a long time. She is actually in country where she lives one of top teachers. (haven't seen her for quarter of century now) So, let's assume that I know thing or two about meditation (and Yoga), but to claim something paranormal within ability to relax your mind and body... just goes back to Dr. Dawkins and enemies of reason.

There is nothing voodoo about it, except those voodoo teachers incorporating some strange sounds in hope to produce 'spiritual experience'... and that is just a load of ...

I always have good laugh when someone mention levitation... and Dr. Tyson's explanation that IT IS possible, there is no law in physics that prevents it!

originally posted by: UniFinity
a reply to: TzarChasm

I am not comparing, just putting out a prospective that everything can be consider as a tool. Science, meditation, spirituality, archaeology, biology, physics, etc...

And a good scientist would do as you say, but there is more. A good scientist would take any opinion into account weather it is outside his beliefs or comfort zone and work with all the tools at his disposal. They are not biased.

Metaphysics is not science. It just emulates science to disguise the taste of spirituality. Which is also not science.

a reply to: SuperFrog

yes, I knew you would say this, that is way I edited my response, but it seems I was to late.

Please check out the link.

Now to anyone who reads that big pile of data, and they still say that there is not more to our world, than that is that. And they are firm in their decision and it is their choice, but that is not what the data points to...