Need some advice please.

My Grandparents both took ill in October of last year and unfortunately my grandfather passed away in October 2014. My grandmother then spent 14 weeks in hospital where concerns for her health were so bleak that she was moved into an End of life care home where she has spent the past 6 months. In that time my grandmothers health stabilized and after returning to the New Victoria Hospital and being reassessed it was decided by the consultants and physiotherapy that she would be able to go home as long as care was in place for her.

My partner has been my Gran's companion and friend for the past 11 years and in the past 3 years has become one of her many carers on a daily basis. I suffer from my own health issues that means I would not be able to help care for my gran or even offer her emotional support on my own. My grandmother suffers from dementia and is pretty much bed bound and unable to move around unassisted or without the aid of a wheelchair. We have doctors, social work and DWP behind us and ready to accommodate and offer support, however we applied for a "Permission to Reside Request" regarding myself, my partner and children moving into my grandmothers home of 42+ years from our local housing association but have been denied due to over crowding. We are currently in the process of appealing the decision but said appeal takes 20-28 days. To be frank my family and my grandmother cannot wait that long. Right now my family are taking turns residing with her but this cannot continue due to financial circumstances never mind the geography and travel involved. Can anyone tell me where a stand from a legal perspective? I have my own housing association flat but do not wish to give it up if me and my family will become homeless should my grandmother pass away.

a reply to: andy06shake

however we applied for a "Permission to Reside Request" regarding myself, my partner and children moving into my grandmothers home of 42+ years from our local housing association but have been denied due to over crowding.

HOAs suck. Because families move into homes, bringing all their extended family with them, occupying several people to a room, living in the garage, etc.

Theres this blanket policy in HOA's, sucks big time. In your case, theres bound to be some discrimination there, somewhere.

In addition to the privacy considerations, federal and state statutes prohibit residential restrictions that discriminate on basis of race, religion, natural original, sex, ancestry, familial status, marital or disability. With the exception of senior communities, occupancy restrictions may not be used to discriminate against families with children, nor may they be used to limit residency to persons over a certain age.

HOAs and the law

a reply to: intrptr

Thanks for the support and information, I'm in the U.K, Scotland to be precise, and yes not oly my situation but more to the point my grandmother's situation does indeed seem to suck. To be honest this housing association is endangering my grandmother's life and making the time she has remaining hell on earth by way of there inaction and draconian interpretation of laws that are in no way designed to suit the situation. All I want them to do is what's morally correct.

a reply to: andy06shake

To be honest this housing association is endangering my grandmother's life and making the time she has remaining hell on earth by way of there inaction and draconian interpretation of laws that are in no way designed to suit the situation.

The board of directors (elected?) made the decision? They may not be aware of all the circumstances and just be knee jerking. The appeal may not be necessary if you approach them on an individual basis. Do you know any of them personally? You do have pressing circumstance, I would write another letter and put it in the office managers slot, knock on a board members door, then just move one family member there until the appeal if that doesn't work.

I didn't know you live in Scotland, but HOAs are notorious everywhere, in my experience their "by laws" discriminate.

a reply to: intrptr

The board director phoned the hospital on the day of my grandmother's release and falsely claimed me, my partner and family were unable to take care of her in an attempt to stop her being released from hospital! She also contracted social work and attempted the same. Little did she realise we ourselves contracted social work beforehand obtaining there support to meet my grans needs. To be honest I don't know what to do anyone. My family and myself seem to be banging our head against the wall. And that with all the other government agency's behind us, aware of the situation yet unable to help because of the housing association policy.

a reply to: andy06shake

The board director phoned the hospital on the day of my grandmother's release and falsely claimed me, my partner and family were unable to take care of her in an attempt to stop her being released from hospital!

Uh oh. Big time discrimination. Do you have an equivalent to a watch dog organization like here in the states? One thing HOA board members hate is the threat of getting sued.

Maybe others can chime in from over there. I know how hard it is to take care of elderly family members, my mom had a stroke this year.

Hope it works out okay for you.

a reply to: intrptr

Hope your Mum makes a recovery.

My brother had a stroke when he was 17, then his heart failed and he had to have a transplant at 30. 5 years later he is doing fine, has two kids and is probably a whole lot more healthier than myself.

Im actually thinking of involving the news papers should our second appeal fall upon deaf ears, about 7(out of 20) days to wait for a reply now.

a reply to: andy06shake

Thanks, she has 'recovered', pretty much. We also live in an HOA and her appeals to get things done are met sometimes with insults and drawn out delays. Seems tis same the world over.

HOA's suck. Someone once told me they would never live in an HOA because they couldn't stand being told what to do inside their own home.

Wow for your brother. Nothing like getting old people ailments before our time. The Board of 'directors' and management agency are supposed to be helping residents with the combined resources, not blocking them.

I would stick to the appeals process, fighting them is expensive. But I'm not an expert. What I have found is they break all the rules themselves while throwing the rulebook at the residents. Power tripping, control freaking… wait.

Sorry, I don't have any better legal advice for you. In our HOA they have Board Meetings where residents can appeal in person… before the whole board at once. That personal touch, if you can handle it.

a reply to: intrptr

That's the joy of the U.K legal system, because i have a medical condition myself and am long term unemployed I will most lightly receive legal aid, so they cannot bury me with procedures or wait me out as they would some other poor souls. End of the day the one who suffers is my poor grandmother who wishes nothing more than her family to be able to reside with her at the end of her life. The thing of the situation is that its perfectly legal to reside with my grandmother for 12 out of 13 weeks and still retain my own property, from my perspective. On her end it is illegal for me or my family to reside in my Grans home because without a "Permission to Reside" request being granted she is technically in breach of her tenancy. But not a court or sheriff in the land is ever going to evict a 90+ senile old lady just because her family needs to be with her. That being said if Thistle Housing Association www.glasgow.gov.uk... would play ball and address the problem with in an acceptable time period, taking into account that 20-28 days is practically an eternity to my grandmother given her state of mind and age, and return a decision in my family's favor they would make an old lady exceptionally happy.

Edit: Did i mention that i also stayed in the property previously for 26 years before moving out, probably forgot because apparently "im not part of the house hold in anyway"(Thistle Housing Associations words) so they cannot address my concerns, has to be my auntwho communicates with them because she has my grandmothers power of attorney. You have to love UK law or there interpretation of such.

a reply to: andy06shake

I keep bumping this but nobody else is weighing in. What is the result if they evict her, does the property get higher rent as a result? Does she own it outright? I didn't see you mentioned that detail.

a reply to: intrptr

No its a local housing association home, she has rented it for about 45-50 years through. The result of eviction would be her return to a nursing home witch she does not wish. And the thing is im already on thistle housings list for 5 years, they are and have offered me 4 apartment property's, 4 of them to be precise. Turned them down because of the area and drug related issues associated with such, lets just say that one of the flats they attempted to show us had graffiti all over the place no floor boards and stank of urine, the rest were no better. My Grans house is a 4 app property and suits my own needs/family's needs and my grandmothers easily. And there is no over crowding issue considering under Scottish law and the fact my oldest child is 8 at the moment states.

"Housing Act 1985 Part X

328 "Exception:children attaining age of 1 or 10.
(1)Where a dwelling which would not otherwise be overcrowded becomes overcrowded by reason of a child attaining the age of one or ten, then if the occupier—
(a)applies to the local housing authority for suitable alternative accommodation, or
(b)has so applied before the date when the child attained the age in question,he does not commit an offence under section 327 (occupier causing or permitting overcrowding), so long as the condition in subsection (2) is met and the occupier does not fail to take action in the circumstances specified in subsection (3)."

I think they must have some kind of ulterior motive.

a reply to: andy06shake

I think they must have some kind of ulterior motive.

Me too. Especially when you said…

The board director phoned the hospital on the day of my grandmother's release and falsely claimed me, my partner and family were unable to take care of her in an attempt to stop her being released from hospital! She also contracted social work and attempted the same.

Thats way out of line. If you can document it, thats libelous. You got her on that one.

a reply to: intrptr

Kind of strange you are the only one that's responded to my thread. Present company accepted, i was kind of hoping greater minds would chime in and offer me some guidance regrading my grandmothers predicament.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: intrptr

Kind of strange you are the only one that's responded to my thread. Present company accepted, i was kind of hoping greater minds would chime in and offer me some guidance regrading my grandmothers predicament.

Me, too.

(Bump)

a reply to: intrptr

Got an answer to our appeal decision, not good. The housing association is still saying no to our right to reside. Will post the letter when i get home so as to give you a general idea as to the situation we are facing. I think my aunt is actually considering just purchasing the property now for my grandmother.

a reply to: andy06shake

The housing association is still saying no to our right to reside.

Damn control freaks. I think its really cool the way events draw you together through this. I respect that. Nothing nobler than what you are trying to do. The alternative is to put her in a home, so many people do that in a heartbeat.

Hang in there, love will find a way.

I'd like to read that letter, too.

a reply to: intrptr

Here is there letter.




Large part of my childhood??? I stayed there until i was 25-26 years old and only moved out the area because there were no suitable accommodations available.

And as you can see they even refuse to communicate with myself directly.

a reply to: andy06shake

My correspondence to them was as follows.

"Dear Mrs McColgan,
I am writing to you with the express purpose that you can find it in your heart to overturn the most heinous decision made against us regarding a "Permission to Reside Request" regarding myself, my partner and children moving into my grandmothers home of 42+ years, ********** Avenue. Coincidently this is where I myself lived for over 25 years.
My Grandparents both took ill in October of last year and unfortunately my grandfather passed away on the 25th October 2014. My grandmother then spent 14 weeks in the Victoria Infirmary where concerns for her health were so bleak that she was then moved into Rowan tree End of life care home where she has spent the past 6 months. In that time my grandmothers health stabilised and after returning to the New Victoria Hospital and being reassessed it was decided by the consultants and physiotherapy that she would be able to go home as long as care was in place for her.
My mother cares for my disabled brother and is unable to move in with my gran and my aunty cares for her husband who is an amputee so is also unable to move in and be her carer, this leaves myself and my partner.
My partner has been my Gran's companion and friend for the past 11 years and in the past 3 years has become one of her many carers on a daily basis. I suffer from my own health issues that means I would not be able to help care for my gran or even offer her emotional support on my own. My partner and I have 2 children and we live in a 2 bedroom flat in ********(by your own associations definition we are already overcrowded), it would be detrimental to both myself and my children should the family unit be split up if we cannot move into my Gran's house together.

My gran sleeps downstairs and has done for the past three years as she suffers from dementia and feels more comfortable downstairs. This leaves 3 bedrooms upstairs which my family would be able to utilise or two if for legal purposes a bedroom was required upstairs for gran.
According to the Housing Act 1985 Part X

328 "Exception:children attaining age of 1 or 10.
(1)Where a dwelling which would not otherwise be overcrowded becomes overcrowded by reason of a child attaining the age of one or ten, then if the occupier—
(a)applies to the local housing authority for suitable alternative accommodation, or
(b)has so applied before the date when the child attained the age in question,he does not commit an offence under section 327 (occupier causing or permitting overcrowding), so long as the condition in subsection (2) is met and the occupier does not fail to take action in the circumstances specified in subsection (3).

As my oldest child is 8 at the moment the overcrowding is not an issue under Scots law.


If you have ever been in the property in question you would realise that there is ample space to accommodate both myself, my partner, my children and grandmother with room to spare. The top floor of the house in question is the same size as the flat I reside in presently. To be quite frank I feel that the decision made against us is based on bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo bordering on political correct gibberish that is in no way relevant to the situation we face. Please realise that my grandmother is 90+ years of age having just lost her husband last year and is in tremendous need of our support never mind the fact that she is approaching the end of her life and requires her family to be there for her. My grandparents took me in when I was a few months old and has since then essentially been my surrogate parents for the 40 years I have been on this Earth. Please allow us to reside with her during the time she has remaining.

I hope you can find it in your heart to make the correct judgement and allow both me and my family to return to my parental home thus making the time my grandmother has left in this world more tolerable, possibly even bearable, rather than the living nightmare she will experience should she be forced to reside by herself or in another care home.

We are well aware that this would be a special exemption on your behalf and we understand that this goes against your usual policies but I am inclined to understand that in the past special circumstances have been taken into consideration and granted.
This is not about what some obscure law, that does not even apply to the situation or context, says; its about what's morally the correct decision to make.

Please do us the kindness of attempting to understand the obstacles we face regarding Gran's care and health conditions. This would be the best solution all round for both me, my gran and my family."

a reply to: andy06shake

A very high percentage of these houses are currently rented by older tenants, who have been there for a very long time, similar to your mother…

There it is. They want to out old tenants so they can charge higher rent. If you can confirm that the law about overcrowding conflicts with their "policy", you got them. Appeal to that higher authority, sometimes the board says things they know aren't true hoping you won't take it any further. Since they want to increase the rent, thats probably the case. They may even be on your side but are bound by policy. She gave you a contact number, pursue it.

Yah, shes just so very, very sorry bout your plight. Like I said, damn control freaks. If it was their loved ones they'd overlook the rules in a minute. Where I live they do it all the time. They hand down blanket decisions, cold policy, but break the rules all the time, in their favor.

If you can find out that these board members are elected, how long they sat on the board, and that any of them also "overcrowd" or allow their cronies to over crowd in your complex, thats also an arrow in your quiver.

a reply to: intrptr

I think i am just going to have to give up my own family home and move in to my grans address permanent. If they try to evict us or her for that matter then so be it. The woman has been there for me since day dot, i cannot allow this nightmare to transpire without causing her anguish in the twilight of her life. She needs me and my family and to be rather frank i need to be there for her simply because there is no one else. I suffer from my own mental and health related issues and the strain this predicament is placing on both my grandmother, myself and family is simply beyond what we can handle. To be honest i am at the end of my tether both mentally and financially. I simply do not know what to do next to convince there people as to the error of the ways. If i did not have two kids i would seriously consider jumping off a bridge.

My major concern is if i do give up our housing association family home is that should they indeed evict us i will be deemed to have made myself homeless and will not be eligible for another housing association property. End of the day should this happen im pretty much up crap creek without a paddle both socially and financially because i really cannot stretch to footing the first months rent and deposit for a private let.