New Mexico Court Forced a Mother To Take Religious Classes Or Face Losing Her Kids

originally posted by: Reallyfolks
But is the push in aa towards God if one exist more along the lines of maybe you need to talk more than in a meeting so the push maybe talk to a higher power and don't think you are going crazy in the process? Again don't know but I assume in therapy the push is always talking, if no one is available still talk, but don't think your crazy for doing it?

I didn't find any REASON for the push toward a more religious system. My suspicion is that religion is pushing its way into everything, by way of its believers.

But your theory may be correct. Although, talking to "god" seems crazy to me, so I'm not too sure it would make people think they're NOT crazy. I talk to myself about my problems... At least I'm pretty sure to get an answer that way.

originally posted by: C21H30O2I
a reply to: Reallyfolks

That's interesting. You know, if I talk out loud, to myself. Sounding out things, you know, it helps. But If I think, myself or people in general, talk out loud, to God I think that's crazy. I haven't tried to talk out loud to any type of God, for a long time mind you. I think that's crazy. hehe I don't know, It's something, that from an early age, for me. I cant do religion/god, in any shape or form. Nothing crazy happened to me, Just like, one day a light came on and well, It's just not for me.

Besides, isn't praying, just talking to oneself, kinda like positive thinking? Boosting yourself up and just thinking a god, is helping? never mind, I'm no good at religion talk. Just ends up a big mes.

Valid points. Not sure someone recovering from addiction is at the point in life to do any deep thinking about the existence or lack of a higher power. I would assume the push is break the cycle by any means neccesary and when ready to undertake deeper thinking on things like religious/non religious beliefs do it.. Again I don't know, don't know if there is a push, don't know if this seems logical, I guess I'm.asking more for someone who may have experience with it.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Benevolent Heretic, you know, I like the way you post

this wasn't references to an oblivious higher power that one is left to interpret for themselves what is meant.

" For resolving conflicts, ask yourself: "In this situation, how can I honor, glorify and please Christ our Lord" "

"May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing to you, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.
Psalm 19:14"

Both of these quotes seems to point to one particular higher power, they are christian.

and that seems to be a difference between AAA and this lady. The "God" or higher power that AAA is referring to could very well be a better part of yourself, if you chose to believe that. But to be honest, I wondered about courts ordering people to AAA meeting also, but well had the impression that there were supposed to be other options made available if one wasn't interested in religious overtones.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

AA meetings are often sponsored by churches, like the Boyscouts.

They CAN be very religious.

But: Worldwide Agnostic A.A. Meetings: www.agnosticaanyc.org...

There is a group for just about everything. My brother went to a non-smoking spiritual one.

The founders of AA broke away from the original group partly because of religion. It excluded people.

NOTE: yes religion infiltrates anything that doesn't resist it. I think it's horrible what Christianity has done to Native Anericans, but that's another story.

a reply to: C21H30O2I

I support this woman for the same reasons I support Kim Davis. Both were being forced by a court to violate their religious convictions, both in violation of a Religious Freedom law in their states, and both were subject to contempt of court charges for not following an arbitrary court order.

Refusing to follow the judge's order did not place her children in danger or harm them in any way, yet the judge took her children away like a spoiled child taking away a toy when he doesn't get his way. The judge's actions did hurt the children, burdened an already stressed system whose resources were desperately needed for children in real physical danger, and costing the state unnecessary expenses.

Neither did Kim Davis put anyone in danger or harm them in any way, yet the judge put her in harm's way by throwing her into a cesspool of violent criminals like a spoiled child who didn't get his way, increasing costs to the state and further delaying a resolution. Jailing Kim Davis didn't fix anything and simply dragged out a process that could have and should have been performed in a timely manner by the responsible state officials to begin with.

I applaud them both and appreciate their efforts. Both are protecting everyone's freedom of religion and conscience.

a reply to: C21H30O2I

Well, thanks. You're not too bad, yourself.



A little more about Mary Pepper, the counselor...

Source 1

The court insists that it does not direct citizens to sessions with religious themes, but as Americans United’s Sarah Jones points out, even the most cursory look at Pepper’s background would suggest that her counseling is far from secular:

She is a conservative Catholic who once taught at a Catholic elementary school and volunteered for Project Defending Life, a Catholic anti-abortion group. In a 2014 interview with the Albuquerque Journal, she insisted that couples who cohabitate before marriage have a higher risk of divorce, a statement that conforms to Catholic social teaching, but not to evidence. On a Facebook page, Pepper posted repeated rants about the evils of Planned Parenthood and abortion, as well as marriage equality and gay rights.
...
This is how Christian privilege works. The same privilege that led Kim Davis to think it’s okay to use the government as an extension of her religious beliefs is the privilege that allows Mary Pepper to counsel under the assumption that you can’t be a good parent without her particular understanding of how Jesus wants her to live — with the endorsement of the court system.

Source 2

Court-ordered clients make up a significant portion of Pepper’s business; she told the station that approximately 50 percent of her clients are referred to her via family court. And there’s evidence that Pepper may be profiting from her relationship to the court in questionable ways because she holds her counseling sessions in public libraries.

There’s no overhead cost to Pepper, but she’s legally prohibited from accepting money for her services in public libraries.
...
KRQE confronted Pepper about the practice. She responded by ending the interview.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
a reply to: C21H30O2I

Well, thanks. You're not too bad, yourself.

A little more about Mary Pepper, the counselor...

Source 1

The court insists that it does not direct citizens to sessions with religious themes, but as Americans United’s Sarah Jones points out, even the most cursory look at Pepper’s background would suggest that her counseling is far from secular:

She is a conservative Catholic who once taught at a Catholic elementary school and volunteered for Project Defending Life, a Catholic anti-abortion group. In a 2014 interview with the Albuquerque Journal, she insisted that couples who cohabitate before marriage have a higher risk of divorce, a statement that conforms to Catholic social teaching, but not to evidence. On a Facebook page, Pepper posted repeated rants about the evils of Planned Parenthood and abortion, as well as marriage equality and gay rights.
...
This is how Christian privilege works. The same privilege that led Kim Davis to think it’s okay to use the government as an extension of her religious beliefs is the privilege that allows Mary Pepper to counsel under the assumption that you can’t be a good parent without her particular understanding of how Jesus wants her to live — with the endorsement of the court system.

Source 2

Court-ordered clients make up a significant portion of Pepper’s business; she told the station that approximately 50 percent of her clients are referred to her via family court. And there’s evidence that Pepper may be profiting from her relationship to the court in questionable ways because she holds her counseling sessions in public libraries.

There’s no overhead cost to Pepper, but she’s legally prohibited from accepting money for her services in public libraries.
...
KRQE confronted Pepper about the practice. She responded by ending the interview.

Well, Well, If that's not muddy water's?!? heh Pepper, yeah, she's shady and the more I hear about her, the more I stand behind Salzman.

Quick note to the AA thing. 30+ years ago, here was the thinking I got from it when I attended meetings with a friend to support her and ended up realizing I was REALLY close to going down "That road" and stuck around for 5 years. Alcoholics/addicts are weak willed. They have no strength inside them to either A) stop after a drink or 2 like a normal person or B) are unable to say no in the first place to whatever they are addicted to.

When you are in rehab you have counselors and people around you can talk to. When you get out in the real world and are all alone you need someone to talk to that isn't you cause you are the problem. The higher power we were taught back then was simple. It could be God or a tree or a rock, it didn't matter. It was just something outside of yourself, you could talk to, to talk yourself out of taking that first hit or drink or whatever. Even writing stuff down in a journal was something encouraged. The higher power thing was only ever meant to be a coping mechanism outside yourself when you have no access to a human to help you get through whatever is troubling you and to help you keep clean. Not to become a bible thumper.

Hell, I went to meetings in Malibu that were Wiccan and really cool, and I'm not Wiccan. If you have any or no belief there IS a meeting group out there that shares or complements whatever you want.

There's such a thing as a 'dry' alcoholic/addict too. In other words you quit the addiction of choice and are 'clean' but you still have the same addict personality that comes out in other ways. Like bad social skills, unable to hold a job because you can't cope, or a plethora of other ways. The 12 step thing is a fairly good mechanism to change the actual thinking that makes you an addict or alcoholic. Because if you don't change the way you cope and think about things you will always struggle with it.

It wouldn't surprise me to find AA has, as an organization, become more religious. However, I do know that even now there are AA groups that are, christian, Buddhist, agnostic, atheist etc etc, in most areas. So if you are ordered to AA classes (which is stupid to begin with, because until YOU decide you have a problem and to fix it, no amount of rehab or meetings will 'fix' you) there are meetings you can go to without the religious theme. Personally my higher power was my Dog She helped me a ton lol.

Lil

ETA: As I understand it the mother ASKED for help? Am I wrong? So why couldn't she choose what counselor she went to? That's definite BS. But I would have gone to keep my kids or gone straight to the press or something. Family courts are ridiculous now adays. Keep kids in abusive homes and remove them for stupid # like breast feeding 'wrong' (is there a 'wrong' way to breast feed?) I dunno what's happened to humanity, but I'm not impressed. I will never identify myself or anyone else by ANY label other than HUMAN, period. The hatred humans have for one another and our world makes me sick frankly. Sigh.

originally posted by: Lilroanie
Quick note to the AA thing.

Excellent! Thanks for the info. This thread is the first time I've heard of AA being a religious thing, so it's nice to know I'm not living in a dream world.

ETA: As I understand it the mother ASKED for help?

I don't remember reading that. It was kind of vague as to how she came to be ordered to attend this counseling.

I will never identify myself or anyone else by ANY label other than HUMAN, period. The hatred humans have for one another and our world makes me sick frankly. Sigh.

Wow. I agree with this SO much and would love to take on the challenge of not identifying people by anything other than human. Thanks!

originally posted by: Lilroanie
The higher power we were taught back then was simple. It could be God or a tree or a rock, it didn't matter. It was just something outside of yourself, you could talk to, to talk yourself out of taking that first hit or drink or whatever. Even writing stuff down in a journal was something encouraged. The higher power thing was only ever meant to be a coping mechanism outside yourself when you have no access to a human to help you get through whatever is troubling you and to help you keep clean. Not to become a bible thumper.

Thanks. Was waiting for someone to explain that better then I could.

My brother was a serious alcoholic. He's very fortunate certain circumstances fell in his favor and not the other way.

He went through the program and "graduated" out when he was ready. He has remained sober for 20 years.

a reply to: Lilroanie

Maybe you can link those Wiccan AA meetings in Malibu. What we have to look them up out here is this.
AA Meetings in Malibu

As you will notice, there are 24 AA meetings per week in Malibu. 13 in Christian Churches, and 11 elsewhere. I've never been to one in a Church but have been to them elsewhere. The elsewheres were highly religious. The whole AA program is a religious program. It is about pushing you to use God as your means of recovery. It is blatantly stated in the 12 Steps.

This subject is not cut and dry neither. The The U.S. 9th Circuit of Appeals ruled that it is in violation of the 1st Amendment clause to force someone to go there. More people are forced in CA to go to these meetings than any 2 bit religious family counselor.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Holly Salzman went to a New Mexico District court for help co-parenting her children with her ex-husband.

Maybe I misread that, to me it reads she asked for help co-parenting?

Also just fyi to BH and Annee, I'm a self admitted hypocrite. People now adays disgust me so much I kinda hate too much I still only identify people as human but they can be A*****e humans, Di****d humans, Evil humans etc etc lol. So I guess I still label according to behavior instead of color, religion or whatever... sigh, I'm trying :/

If you intentionally hurt, you're evil, if you do your best to be a helpful, kind person (I have trouble with this because of the above mentioned A*****e humans lol) you are on the road to good. I don't need anyone other than myself to tell me that. Being a good person is pretty easy to understand until you involve personalities into it then it gets all mucked up.

Also Annee you never 'recover' or graduate you are an addict etc for the rest of your life. Any addict who calls themselves 'recovered' not 'recovering' is a 'dry addict' I mentioned above. Even if you never go to another meeting if you don't change your thinking in regards to coping mechanisms you just shift from drugs or alcohol to some other 'addiction' be it bible thumping or atheism or working out, seriously it can be anything you do to excess.

Off to work! Have a nice day all!

Lil

a reply to: Annee

Hopefully he never goes back to let them know he graduated out. AA is a highly religious organization which uses fear to coerce its members to stay. They have a saying for anyone who thinks they may just graduate out. It goes a little something like this:" The only alternative to AA is jails, institutions, or death".

a reply to: harvestdog

If you read my post I said 30+ years ago, I have no clue if they are still around or available through any official AA website . I also said it may very well be more religious as an organization now. But I have no doubt people who want to get well and not mess with religion can find meetings maybe unassociated with AA to go to. The 12 step program in itself is a valuable tool to recovery. But like any tool it can be misused and that is up to the user to make sure they get the right help. Ya know?

Lil (Now seriously off to work or I'll be late lol)

a reply to: Lilroanie

This debate centers on Separation of Church and State. I pointed out how many Californians are mandated to go through AA by the court for DUI/ Wet Reckless/ etc. Have a nice day at work.

originally posted by: Lilroanie
Quick note to the AA thing. 30+ years ago, here was the thinking I got from it when I attended meetings with a friend to support her and ended up realizing I was REALLY close to going down "That road" and stuck around for 5 years. Alcoholics/addicts are weak willed. They have no strength inside them to either A) stop after a drink or 2 like a normal person or B) are unable to say no in the first place to whatever they are addicted to.

When you are in rehab you have counselors and people around you can talk to. When you get out in the real world and are all alone you need someone to talk to that isn't you cause you are the problem. The higher power we were taught back then was simple. It could be God or a tree or a rock, it didn't matter. It was just something outside of yourself, you could talk to, to talk yourself out of taking that first hit or drink or whatever. Even writing stuff down in a journal was something encouraged. The higher power thing was only ever meant to be a coping mechanism outside yourself when you have no access to a human to help you get through whatever is troubling you and to help you keep clean. Not to become a bible thumper.

Hell, I went to meetings in Malibu that were Wiccan and really cool, and I'm not Wiccan. If you have any or no belief there IS a meeting group out there that shares or complements whatever you want.

There's such a thing as a 'dry' alcoholic/addict too. In other words you quit the addiction of choice and are 'clean' but you still have the same addict personality that comes out in other ways. Like bad social skills, unable to hold a job because you can't cope, or a plethora of other ways. The 12 step thing is a fairly good mechanism to change the actual thinking that makes you an addict or alcoholic. Because if you don't change the way you cope and think about things you will always struggle with it.

It wouldn't surprise me to find AA has, as an organization, become more religious. However, I do know that even now there are AA groups that are, christian, Buddhist, agnostic, atheist etc etc, in most areas. So if you are ordered to AA classes (which is stupid to begin with, because until YOU decide you have a problem and to fix it, no amount of rehab or meetings will 'fix' you) there are meetings you can go to without the religious theme. Personally my higher power was my Dog

She helped me a ton lol.

Lil

ETA: As I understand it the mother ASKED for help? Am I wrong? So why couldn't she choose what counselor she went to? That's definite BS. But I would have gone to keep my kids or gone straight to the press or something. Family courts are ridiculous now adays. Keep kids in abusive homes and remove them for stupid # like breast feeding 'wrong' (is there a 'wrong' way to breast feed?) I dunno what's happened to humanity, but I'm not impressed. I will never identify myself or anyone else by ANY label other than HUMAN, period. The hatred humans have for one another and our world makes me sick frankly. Sigh.

Thank you. You answered all the questions I had. Some what I was thinking, some didn't even occur to me like the journaling. Appreciate the post

originally posted by: harvestdog
a reply to: Annee

AA is a highly religious organization which uses fear to coerce its members to stay.

No, it's NOT. It is designed to fit anyone.

Wilson. Founder of AA.

With contributions from other group members, including atheists who reined in religious content (such as Oxford material) that could later result in controversy, by fall 1938 Wilson expanded the six steps into the final version of the Twelve Steps, which are detailed in Chapter Five of the Big Book, called "How It Works.

" Wilson later wrote that he found the Oxford Group aggressive in their evangelism. He objected to the group's publicity-seeking and intolerance of nonbelievers, and those alcoholics who were practicing Catholics found their views to be in conflict with the Oxford teachings. On a personal level, while Wilson was in the Oxford Group he was constantly checked by its members for his smoking and womanizing.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: harvestdog
They have a saying for anyone who thinks they may just graduate out. It goes a little something like this:" The only alternative to AA is jails, institutions, or death".

"Graduate" was in quotes for a reason.

My brother, who was a very serious alcoholic, does not agree with you.

a reply to: Annee

AA is generally considered these days to be religious, so a court can't order someone to attend. They can order a person to attend a rehab program if alternatives are available but it's a First Amendment violation to order someone into a program that requires they accept a God they don't believe in. Here's some case law on it

nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu...