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A few questions for those religious/spiritual people out there

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posted on Jan, 3 2005 @ 09:14 PM
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I cannot add very much. After the electronic template that operated your body leaves, ...

There is only relationship and knowing who you are; or there is separation, and with that, being lost and not knowing who you are.

People who participate in God's covenants enjoy relationship-in-time; people who don't participate go where they go. Their souls congregate with like souls; but they have no identity until and unless they incarnate once again.

What "salvation" means is that the soul retains his/her identity and memories (God keeps them for you until you are ready to take them back).

An unsaved soul merely begins from Start, over and over and over until he/she decides to participate in a Covenant and begin accumulating memories.

No big deal. Nobody gets tortured. The worst thing that can happen to a soul is to feel very lost. Lost souls also congregate; and they're not very nice to each other because they have no sense of right or wrong.

We'll all meet each other there someday, when physical incarnation is no longer the process that is going on. God takes vacations from creating, you know. He goes off and takes a nap for a while. : )




posted on Jan, 3 2005 @ 09:43 PM
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Originally posted by Gazrok
What exactly do Christians think Heaven is like?

Why strive to attain a state when you know nothing nor believe nothing particular about that state???


The Bible say that it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement. So, I have ONE go around at this. At the end, I am judged. I know also, from the Bible, that the deciding factor in where I will spend eternity comes down to whether or not I accepted Christ as my savior. The short version, but true nonetheless.

On one hand, I have an eternity of pain and suffering and on the other heaven. No matter how little they know of heaven, that will be anyones choice.

As for what we will do, well, we know that there will be an eternity of praising and worshipping God. I enjoy doing that now and I look forward to it for eternity. We can't think about it as we think about living. It is not the same. We will have very different motivations when we are there.



posted on Jan, 3 2005 @ 10:35 PM
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Do you ever have a vivid dream?

Vivid dreams can occur when your electronic template (spirit) leaves your body while you sleep and it simply floats up (because it has no mass) a few hundred feet higher, where all the other spirit templates have floated up to.

And you have experiences up there.

In one of my lucid dreams, I'm with a group of people in Russia and we're traipsing through restaurant after restaurant, looking at and smelling all the food; but we never eat any.

And in another dream, I'm checking over the hotel rooms for this very rich black woman, and I'm advising her how to redecorate. The rooms are huge, down long halls, and they look like an old museum.

"Heaven" is a holodeck where we mentally create and experience the visual (but not tactile) elements of realities we make up. We meet our parents and children and friends there, but we have no sense of belonging. We're all just doing something together. It's fun.

That's heaven. Sometimes you travel there in your sleep, just your spirit part. So you've been there already, and you know what it's like.

: )



posted on Jan, 3 2005 @ 10:42 PM
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There are documented cases of past lives if that helps.

Also, what is the deal with your health? If at all possible fight for your survival, you sounded like you gave up or something. In many instances I think that something can be done.

Troy



posted on Jan, 3 2005 @ 10:54 PM
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Originally posted by cybertroy
you sounded like you gave up or something. Troy


Hardly


It has just got me to thinking about the after life.

I am still waiting to hear from Jews and Muslims on this subject, but so far thanks guys for not turning this into a God/Pagan Bashing thread



posted on Jan, 3 2005 @ 11:00 PM
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i prettymuch agree with vegemite who posted first reply:
1. Go to www.nderf.org and also read the chapter, "The Resurrection of Sri Yukteswar" in the book, Autobiography of a Yogi, by Paramahansa Yogananda.
2. In astral heaven, yes, we are reunited with loved ones (the ones who haven't been reincarnated on earth yet). And there is even greater love and happiness than is felt here on earth.
3. Jesus told the Pharisees concerning the man who died, then his wife married the man's brother who then died, and so on, that marriage doesn't exist in the hereafter (the astral heaven where departed spirits live). Marriage is an earthly institution. The soul is essentially sexless, so in heaven people do not get married. When you reincarnate, you will probably not remarry the same person. God doesn't want our love to become too limited and clannish; we must evolve into new experiences. Our love must eventually include everyone as our own family.
4. Very negative people go to a "lower astral" realm and cannot contact "normal" or reasonably good people in astral heaven.

Most of this was based upon Yogananda's teachings (Self-Realization Fellowship).



posted on Jan, 3 2005 @ 11:05 PM
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Oh yeah, and if your wife and you really love each other so very deeply, and you are both incarnated at the same time, you will most likely end up together again, but perhaps in a different form of relationship, like best friends, or parent and child.



posted on Jan, 3 2005 @ 11:31 PM
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Amuk, nobody knows for sure, even the dogmatic ones here, like Deltachaos who knows there isn't anything or Sozzledboot who knows there is something.

There are some things that even an old evidence-happy engineer like me has to take on faith. I can't argue it, because I have no evidence, but starting about 14 years ago, I got into a mindset where I am as sure as I am about enything else (although with, granted, no evidence whatsoever) that there is an afterlife for sentient critters, because I don't believe the "self" (however you choose to define it) is an annihilate-able thing.

I believe when I die, the part that makes me OTS and not Amuk will still be operating, and knowing itself/myself as OTS. I also believe I will move to a better place where I will be reunited with my family and those whom I loved and who loved me. I further believe that these will include men and women, boys and girls, more than a couple of Labrador Retrievers and perhaps even a cat or two.

I am not a henotheist like my LDS brothers, but I do believe that my "heaven" will connect me with God as I see Him and I will do many strange and wondrous things, none of which I can explain because I simply don't know what they are.

Again, Amuk, I have no hard-and-fast evidence for these assertions, so I cannot possibly debate them. I was a guilt-ridden Roman Catholic until I was 21, a devout atheist from 21 to 47, and a "religious" person since then. My life was terrible indeed as an atheist; I destroyed relationships, abused drugs, was suicidal, and in general screwed the pooch.

Now, as a theist (my particular flavor, FWIW, is protestant, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America in particular) my life is good and contented. This does not necessarily mean it will work for you, of course.

Anyway, that's my view of the afterlife.



posted on Jan, 3 2005 @ 11:39 PM
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You did not ask that I post the gospel in a nutshell, but someone else did (on MSN Messenger): and he further asked me to post it in this thread because it would be easier for him to save both this thread as well as the Christian Biblical way to salvation with just a few clicks of the print function.

I am sorry if you were taken by surprise that the post did not address your concern specifically, but there are other readers reading this thread and sometimes they have questions too.




posted on Jan, 4 2005 @ 01:24 AM
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I'm a Christian as well and agree with the other Christians and their posts,except to say that i dont believe all we will be doing is basking in gods glory and singing him praises,Jesus said "in my Fathers house are many mansions and i go and prepare a place for you",that does not sound like we are going to just be sitting around Gods light.
Remember God granted us all free will?well that does not end once we die,Satan a clear example had free will even in heaven and he took one third of heavens angels when he was cast out of the presence of God,i`m sure some Christians will become warriors for God even in heaven,some may fall from grace,some to be in charge of specific areas of the heavens,what i`m trying to say we will not be bored we will have responsibilities assigned to each reflecting ones worth shown on earth and in heaven.
Jesus said your either for me or against me,but it is worse to sit on the fence,meaning those who are fully Satanic will be better off than the person sitting on the fence watching,they will end up in hell with Satan where Satanists want to go, and they will have their reward from Satan for their loyalty,so each to their own, if Satan the liar deceiver is your thing thats your decision and your God given free will.The only ones that bother me are the wolves in sheep clothing the ones who pretend to be for God but are really Satanists like the elite masons (example)who know full well they are not for the Christian God but for Lucifer their false light bearer.Its easier to respect someone Else's choices (so long as they are informed of the true choice they have made and the consequences of their decisions)than respect Satanists who admit they simply are,rather than being like a terrorist lurking among us lying and deceiving like their God, but thats the nature of the beast.True light and Truth (not secret) Christ the Lord being God is my choice.



posted on Jan, 4 2005 @ 02:28 AM
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Amuk's original questions:

sozzle says the wages of sin are death. This is not the kind of death that you may think. This is the 'end of the road' death.

Death in the eternal.

Amuk, you express a worry about 'bowing and scrapping'- maybe focusing on existing would be more helpful.

dbrandt hits some good points as well. I disagree with the loved ones in heaven stuff.(*below for why)

Somewhere likewise makes valid points. Did the thief next to Christ (on another cross) not join Christ upon death? How about the Good Samaritan?

marge I can not disagree with.

Read dbates, especially his #4

gps at his third paragraph warns about 'fence sitters.' Read it and remember the thief.

Jerrbert most closely presents my views but does a better job.


Amuk, I perceive you have a strong desire regarding relationships. Know this (as I believe) that those joining the Father (God) will know things you can not possibly comprehend. *The relationship of 'the saved' is more akin to rejoining. Can you remember the first time you fell in love? If so, then magnify that.

I don't fully understand 'by grace alone' so I also try the good deed angle as well. Call it a fall back position.

Amuk, you (or anyone) that want must give. How can you (or anyone) expect God to recognize you and welcome you if you have not done the same?

Remember the thief- he believed and acknowledged and yet had very limited opportunity to do either.

Something that I will never forget is that 'when the bullets are flying there are no atheists.' I have heard people pray that had cursed their own mothers.

You stated earlier in this thread that you 'know how to be saved'- apparently not.

Back to the thief- what are your opportunities? He used his and was saved.

Good luck on your quest. I hope the road you choose lasts as long as it needs to.

-remember, as a thief in the night-



posted on Jan, 4 2005 @ 06:53 AM
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I forgot to add that those in heaven will be unable to sin and when Christ returns there will be no more death and sin ever again. satan is gone forever and cannot get to mankind ever again.



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 04:53 PM
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Just bumping this up and again asking the Jewish and Muslim Members out there to share their beliefs on these subjects.

Come on I know you are out there



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 04:57 PM
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Originally posted by sozzledboot
I am sorry if you were taken by surprise that the post did not address your concern specifically, but there are other readers reading this thread and sometimes they have questions too.


No problem


I was just more interested in everyones PERSONAL opinion of the subjects which you didnt answer I would love to here your answers



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by JoeDoaks

Amuk, you express a worry about 'bowing and scrapping'- maybe focusing on existing would be more helpful.


I wasnt worring about bowing and scraping more like "what was the point"? If my eternity was to be spent kneeling at the foot of someone singing how great they were for allowing me to kneel at their feet and sing about how great they are 24 hours a day 7 days a week for eternity why bother?

I was kinda hoping there was a little more to it than this



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 07:24 PM
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Since I personally know of no case of an individual who has actually died and returned from a state of death to talk about it, I am forced to rely on what I do know about death based on observation in order to be able to sensibly post here.

It is clear to me that the idea of either living forever or living after the death of the physical body is a primal concept that seems to have always been there, inside every person, throughout recorded history and all over the world.

I am not speaking here about any belief in life after death, but rather the very concept of it, that 'thing' inside ourselves that even permits us the luxery of entertaining thoughts about life after death should we decide to do so.

We can decide to think about life after death even if we don't know anything about it, and we record these ideas of ours in literature, art, tradition, and so on.

Religion only plays a small part here: religion is really just a set of ideas about life here and life after death that we express using ritual of some sort.

The best that religion can do to answer the question of life after death is bounce a ball off a philosophic wall and right back to us.

Philosophy is not much better. It, like religion, is basically just a set of
ideas which finds expression in the inner mind rather than outward reality.

Can science provide an answer? No, because it too relies upon establishing a set of ideas obtained through careful and methodical outward observation of a phenomenon. The scientist seeks to authenticate those ideas through a set of rules. If those rules can then be applied in the real world to recreate the observed phenomenon, then we have some science concerning it and therefore knowledge regarding it.

No religion, no philosophy, no science has ever been able to show what life after death is, yet the very concept of it persists.

It is not possible using knowledge to come to any conclusions regarding life after death. In other words, the brain, which contains the mind, and is the only organ in the body capable of consciously processing knowledge, is not equipped to address the issue other than to simply conceive of it and afterwards entertain homespun stories it creates using its own resources and experience.

Why then do we still have that life after death thing inside of us? The answer to me at least is clear: there is no knowledge concerning life after death, merely awareness of life after death, which the mind then files away under 'concept' for future reference and that is the end of that!

It is against that backdrop of awareness that we struggle for meaning. Our conscience tells us there IS life after death! Our mind only tells us there is a CONCEPT of life after death.

In conclusion, there are three things operating here of which I have only mentioned two:

1) conscience

2) mind

3) belief

Belief is what I use in place of, or instead of, mind. It doesn't need knowledge, it works simply on faith alone, the will to believe! But I like it because it sidesteps the stumbling block that mind creates, namely that by using the mind, one can never attain knowledge of life after death because there isn't any such knowledge; I also like it because it cuts to the chase, to the core of conscience and begins to place there something that no amount of knowledge could ever do...confirmation of the concept!

When I, as a Christian, try to convey what I have come to believe about life after death for the Christian through the pathways of knowledge, I am bound to fail before I even begin because there is no knowledge about life after death of a Christian. There is, too be sure knowledge about what has been observed of Christians and their works during life, but that is not the same thing.

In fact if I were to base my faith in Christianity on knowledge alone, I too would side with the atheist. Knowledge of Christianity, especially in today's world of multiple religious systems, weird cults, church hypocracy, religious fanaticism and religio-political agendas, is not very convincing.

Based on knowledge, no one would ever want to be a Christian.

Based on belief, however, I have desired to be and am a Christian.

How I came to believe this is by taking to heart what a man was alleged to have said some 2000 years ago, applying it to my life, and determining the validity of it. I liked the story. It appealed to me. I guess you could say I used science, but it wasn't based upon knowledge, simply an agreement with myself to try what that man said! To believe what that man said! It worked for me. It continues to work for me. It provides the solution to the problem of a conscience awareness of life after death, a solution which the mind can never apprehend.




posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 07:28 PM
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my belief is that the light of the god force is what allows and creates life, the rules of the god force can be described in terms of good moral actions truth compassion etc.

the light and truth of the god force has eternal values and has always existed and always will exist.

the corruptions and evil we see have no eternal values and are continually washed/fall away.



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 12:02 AM
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'more to it than this'

O.K. Amuk

How about this-

An existence so fulfilling with meaning that you (sadly) can not comprehend it.

Compared to whatever God is we haven't a clue. In another ATS thread someone compared God and us thusly:

    like an amoeba (us) on a keyboard and God trying to explain the inner working of a computer


We just wouldn't get it.

*edit to add

Another example- just as lame probably, but here goes:

Many years back I was a specialty machinist. I had overhauled a Volvo, a Harley, plenty of lawnmowers, other 4-cycle engine. I had worked on ramjets, turbines, etc.

It took me six months to comprehend a 2-stroke!

I had to cut one in half and 'watch' it to finally grasp the utter simplicity. I went on from there to reeds and raced a few.

What I'm getting at is the answers to your questions may be much simpler than you realize. You have just been looking at them wrong.



[edit on 8-1-2005 by JoeDoaks]



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 10:11 AM
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Thanks for everyones responses so far and thanks for not turning this into a bashing session.

I am still waiting to hear from the Jewish and Muslim members answers to the questions. I have seen both of you out there, I am not trying to make fun of anyone just seeking others thoughts.



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 12:02 PM
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1. What happens after we die? what kind of place do we go to? Does everyone go to the same place? Do we come back to Earth? Do our souls STAY on Earth (ghosts) Or is it completely different?


We are made of two things, body and soul. Body dies, soul lives on.
In Islam, the most contradictory thing in Qur'an is the afterlife. In some chapters, description is given of a judgement day, on which god will resurect bodies of all people, turn dust into flesh again, and then judge them. In this version the soul seems to exist in some kind of temporary "sleep", until the day of resurection.
In other chapters, a soul is described, living a non-corporeal existance after death, again judged by its deeds and sent either to hell or heaven.
Officialy, there are no souls roaming the earth after death. Unofficialy, they are everywhere. It is the most common "non-belief" belief amongst muslims. There are people who contact dead, see them, talk to them, interpret their apearance in dreams. Stories are told about dead relatives being guardian angels who come to you in times of need. These things are taken VERY seriously.

What heaven and hell are is described with metaphores. For example, heaven is described as a garden where people sit in shade of trees, away from sun, and rivers flow next to hem. Now, you can imagine that for the first muslims, who were living in desert, that IS their heaven. One could say that heaven is then the place where we do not feel the suffering of this world anymore.
There is no actual detailed description of the afterlife, just a few metaphores, so this is kind of a blury area. We don't really know what happens, only that good people will get their reward and bad people their punishment.


2. Will we be reunited with our loved ones? Will we even know each other? Will we care? If some go one place and some go another will you (or them) know of the separation?


Yes, we will be. We will know our family, recognize them and we will be reunited. I can't answer the question about separation. I really don't know.


3. If you die and your wifes remarries when they die what happens? I am serious with this one. Are you reunited with her or do yall have an eternal threesome or are you out in the cold?


Nothing about it in religious books, as far as I know, but there is a discussion about it with dozens of assumptions. The one that makes sense to me is the following: if we continue living as spirits, souls, then we are not bound by flesh anymore. A union of more souls is possible I think. It is a different kind of existence.


4. If you have killed/harmed others will they confront you? Or is all forgiven? How about if you were a real sicko? Will your victims have to spend eternity with you?


Yes, we will be confronted with our evil deeds during the trial, the judgement, and it is up to God to forgive or not. Those we harmed will testify against us. A lot of sins are clearly defined in Qur'an, but each of them is followed by "if one truly repents then God might forgive, God is most wise and merciful". Those who are not forgiven end up in hell, a place which is described as "eternal fire", much like christian version of hell. I can only assume that is also a metaphore for existence in which we re-live our misery over and over again... or maybe an existence away from God, who knows.



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