Don't like Socialism? You can get out.

a reply to: RomeByFire

Because there are state social programs does not mean a state is socialist. Typical non-sequitor.

Yeah screw the guys who are too ill to work, let em starve.
That person working two jobs doesn't deserve food stamps just because she is not getting enough to feed her family but lets give the company she works for handouts which cost many more times the social bill.
Screw those guys I'm doing fine.

a reply to: RomeByFire

You do know all of those listed are required to be provided under the Constitution , dont you ?
Each of those are from the following

Provide for the common defense
Infrastructure
Interstate trade

Socialism threads on ATS are like bullying apes having a party tapping each other in the back while screaming desperate emotional cries defending their rights to stay apes.

Keep your illusions of freedom while the rest of society advances to something better than aspiring to have their own little banana tree.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: RomeByFire

Because there are state social programs does not mean a state is socialist. Typical non-sequitor.

Just because someone lies sometimes, it doesn't mean he's a liar!

I know what you mean, but just the idea of having a state providing certain needs is pretty much socialism.

a reply to: RomeByFire

If the socialism you envision is exemplified by someone like the self-avowed Socialist of the Seattle City Council, Kshama Sawant, I want no meat off that bone. Here's one of her progressive rants:

“The only response we can have if Boeing executives do not agree to keep the plant here is for the machinists to say the machines are here, the workers are here, we will do the job, we don't need the executives. The executives don’t do the work, the machinists do,” she said. Sawant says after workers “take-over” the Everett Boeing plant; they could build things everyone can use. “We can re-tool the machines to produce mass transit like buses, instead of destructive, you know, war machines,” she told KIRO 7.

www.slate.com...

Her vision of a socialist utopia includes knee-capping business owners, fiscal government responsibility for everyone, and silencing alternative viewpoints that don't support her agenda. Thanks, but no thanks.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
Yeah screw the guys who are too ill to work, let em starve.
That person working two jobs doesn't deserve food stamps just because she is not getting enough to feed her family but lets give the company she works for handouts which cost many more times the social bill.
Screw those guys I'm doing fine.

What percentage are actually too ill to work? Seems to be an extraordinarily small amount from what I've seen, but maybe there's some community in the US that is the polar opposite of the cities I've been to. Who's working 2 jobs anymore? I've used that as a solution many times and the response is almost universally one of shock and horror over it... hell, for half of these people ONE JOB seems to be too much to ask them to actually work.

I'm 100% opposed to corporate bailouts and handouts. The problem is if a politician ran on a platform of pure elimination of handouts to both corporations and the 47% of America the rest of us are working hard to subsidize, they'd not stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected because both corporations and that 47% LOVE being coddled and cared for.

That's part of the problem, I'm not "doing fine." Quite the opposite, I have to scrimp and sacrifice more and more each year to pay goddamned outrageous insurance premiums and deductables, taxes, and other fees to subsidize all these damned people. Most of us that bitch about this stuff sit in the demilitarized zone between "Too much to qualify for subsidies" and "Not enough to have Eff You money allowing us to pay the extortionists while living the lives we want to live."

But yeah, those of us who want to simply keep what we earned through our hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of dollars at college and then our 50, 60, or more hours at work each week are the bad guys here. We're greedy because we simply want to keep what we already earned, meanwhile the admirable of the world are the ones with their hands out saying "Pay me because I exist." What a punchline, man, what a punchline. A horse, a rabbi, and a nun walk into a bar...

a reply to: Boscowashisnamo

Never mind the FACT that those machinists held a freaking ridiculous strike in the middle of the 2008 Great Recession demanding massive guaranteed raises and bonuses while the rest of America was just crushing themselves inside in hopes they didn't lose their jobs. The strike cost Boeing $100 Million a day in penalties over the failure to complete the Dreamliner. Not to mention the handful of government customers who went with Airbus because Boeing's labor issues prevented them from meeting delivery deadlines...

Boeing should have given the machinists and Seattle double middle fingers and moved their entire operation out of Washington and into a right to work state where fair compensation goes hand in hand with effort and honest work.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

I thought they tried to simply build a new facility in Right to Work South Carolina and the Union got the NLRB to start investigating and prosecuting them for it even though they weren't closing their plant in Seattle or moving any of those jobs. The new plant represented union jobs lost see ... and the NLRB did it. So the union can apparently even dictate where a business will now locate itself.

a reply to: RomeByFire

Not to point out the obvious, but you do understand that a Representational/Constitutional Republic like the U.S. can have social programs and not be a socialist government, don't you? (don't believe the people that call us a democracy, because we're not...never have been, and that's by design)

Of course, I agree that the U.S. is overdoing it and heading the way of socialism (to our own peril, if history teaches us anything), but we're far from it at this point.

But if the point of your post is to tell people like me to gtfo, I'll counter with an equally childish, school-yard phrase: Make me.

a reply to: dreamingawake

In some parts of the country the trash collection is done by the city. Where I live it's done by private companies, and you pay a bill for it. Why do you think Waste Management exists? Do corporations receive government subsidies for their trash collection? Sounds like you'd prefer it if they did.

originally posted by: neveroddoreven99
a reply to: dreamingawake

In some parts of the country the trash collection is done by the city. Where I live it's done by private companies, and you pay a bill for it. Why do you think Waste Management exists? Do corporations receive government subsidies for their trash collection? Sounds like you'd prefer it if they did.

And of course, the beauty of the post here is that we have that choice. Just because Tiny Town wants to have the city manage waste doesn't mean that the citizens of Podunk Junction have to do it that way if they think Waste Hauler, Inc. does a better job of it.

Whether or not a system can or should be socialized should be voluntary and left up to the people in a local area.

a bit of socialism in any society is not only needed, but wanted by all
nobody wants to see starving people on the streets, so food for the poor is generally a good idea, things like that.

Capitalism is however the main force behind innovation in society. socialism is just a net that stops a freefall into despair...trying to find out where to put that net is whats open to debate.

I live in Massachusetts. I fully understand what socialist programs do for ones community. I have seen great neighborhoods turned to ghettos because of section 8. These same ppl that live in these socially provided homes drive brand new Cadillacs and Acuras.
We have 2 10 year old cars.

My family and I are not eligible for any social benefits the state offers. When my kid breaks their arm it will cost me roughly 2k$. I am insured because it is against the law not to be. To the tune of 1k$ per month. So because of that and our salary (we live paycheck to paycheck) we do not qualify for any social assistance to absorb anything to go to the 2nd rate doctor that our plan offers. Unlike the care Mass Health would offer someone at Boston Children's.

SNAP benefits (another socially minded program) is an absolute joke that working stiffs like me pay for. I pay for my food, tobacco and beer with the money I earn because...well... I F----'n earned it.

In short.... these programs and the absolute lack of anything surrounding immigration is what is wrong with America.

The frustration is very real for those who have done things "right"

and ..to the op. Have some respect when dealing with vets and do care that they fought for your freedoms. Without this mans army the Ivory Tower would be all to real. So instead of posting something you thought was impact. Figure out what you can do to help or GTFO because America doesn't need you.

Nvm!!

The horse is dead, why keep beating it...

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: luciddream

"Socialism is simply Communism for people without the testosterone to man the barricades."

-Gary North

Gary North is an idiot that wants America to become a Christian theocracy. Here is a little something else the moron wants.
Gary North

North favors capital punishment for a range of offenders; including women who lie about their virginity, blasphemers, nonbelievers, children who curse their parents, male homosexuals, and other people who commit acts deemed capital offenses in the Old Testament. North also favors capital punishment for women who have abortions. North stated that the biblical admonition to kill homosexuals in Leviticus is God's "law and its morally appropriate sanction", arguing that "God is indeed a homophobe" who "hates the practice [of homosexuality] and those who practice it" and "hates the sin and hates the sinner." North has said that capital punishment should be carried out by stoning, because it is the biblically approved method of execution and it is cheap due to the plentiful and convenient supply of stones.

Hmmm, that is very interesting and surprising. I am going to have to concede that I wouldn't throw in with such ideas and they seem downright oxymoronic in the context of state socialism vs libertarianism.

For the moment, I will simply thank you for updating me on him.

I am guilty of the very thing I chastise others about, not doing my homework.

originally posted by: theMediator
Is freedom the freedom of letting others die? The freedom to have no roads? The freedom to have no health care? The freedom to have no army? The freedom to have no education? The freedom to have no home?

No all that counts is the freedom to keep your #ing money because you rather spoil it yourself than let others that YOU feel didn't deserve it. Whatever deserves stands for...as if people really had what they deserved. Some people have it all without even trying while some work and work and work all their lives and nothing good ever happens. Deserve is something that happened 500 years ago when you could get free land and build yourself a life. DING DING, HELLO? This world, doesn't exist anymore! Stop clinging to the way of the apes and think that it's better. It's not better, it un-evolved, primitive, long due, too bad so sad

I know that whatever we do, we need to change the people up there but we never really tried socialism in a world that's not controlled by a wealthy elite, we never really tried with all the technologies we have today, we never really tried all together instead of fighting each other.

We've tried "laissez aller" and it clearly doesn't work.
Money brings power, power corrupts and monopolies are inevitable.

So you can fight against the current all you want, drown in it with a disturbed and selfish sense of pride or see the obvious.
Seems like a no brainer to me unless that's what you are lacking.

Only some partial quotes, theMediator, but your *entire* post was AMAZING - a veritable ATS breath of fresh air!! Standing ovation from this member, you really get it! Super proud to live on a planet with you for sure!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



Clearly what people are bothered about is losing their precious
"b-b-b-but-but-but -I- want to be exceptional!!!!!"

They all sound like a giant load of Veruca Salt to me.

They cannot see the forest for the trees - and they CAN still have their exceptionalism, to assuage their delicate egos.
It is only greed that would desire anything less than the below for their fellow human:

How about everyone gets to afford a home - no more homelessness.
-->Some will furnish with marble and gold faucets so they can fill their worth bucket, and others will use more moderate finishings.

How about everyone gets to afford a vehicle, as is necessary for this life?
-->Some will have Maseratis, and more will have Toyotas or the like. Exceptionalism granted.

How about everyone gets to afford higher education? Seems like our society can only move forward with an entirely educated populace.
-->Some will achieve higher based on intelligence, but all will be given the chance to at least try.

How about everyone gets to afford to eat healthy food? Healthy people are capable of becoming their best, benefiting all of society.
-->You can keep your exceptionalism for the truffles and caviar, fine wines etc.

How about everyone gets to afford a basic vacation each year? See some of this world and expand mindsets, plus get a mental health break from one's job, which surely would contribute to a more convivial populace.
-->You can still uphold your high horse on extended vacations, private jets or yachts.

There is nothing in the above that lets anyone lose their special "elitism" and need to feel above others - because THAT is what it comes down to, basically. ALL cogs in the wheel of life are necessary ones, no matter how minor by your definition.

Right this minute, there are people working hard for their ENTIRE lives, and they cannot afford any of the above (unless crap food and slovenly conditions), look out for our seniors, our veterans too...yet everyone is blinded by the media stories of cheating the system, which are not as common in reality as is projected at you. The bloated government takes MUCH more, truly.

Let people have a reason to live, eschew crime, better themselves and lovingly raise their families - everyone benefits from that, no exceptions.

Why not treat your fellow humans like they actually -matter- for a change, and see what you get?
It's got to be better than what we have now. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX.

ETA: And maybe, just maybe, if we valued future generations as much as our rampant consumerism, and added stay at home motherhood as a job (because it is, and an important one at that), we would not have generations of children being raised by the internet, tvs, videogames and complete strangers...but instead being instilled with values and pride in themselves to do their best, raised in love rather than lack. In place of becoming zombified by today's distractions...tomorrow's critical thinkers need more than we are currently capable of giving them.

originally posted by: greencmp
"I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money."

-Thomas Sowell

"Everyone steals, that's how it works. Do you think people out there are getting exactly what they deserve? No. They're getting paid over or under - *someone* in the chain always gets bamboozled." - Mr. Robot

a reply to: MoonBlossom

That was a damn good post, wish I could star you more!

a reply to: valiant

Thank you, that was a very kind thing to say! I just feel that we have so much advancement now, with 3-D printers and the like - surely we ought to be up to the task of better than a meager paycheque to paycheque existence for all.

Ego-wise, we have some work to do.