Religious People….Open letter

Here's the issue: She doesn't want to participate.

Now I don't agree that what she does is actually a marriage in the spiritual sense, so I disagree with her. She is merely handing out a human legal contract. I wish we took the word marriage off it for everyone.

But do you think she should be forced to participate?

"listen christian,

i was hungry and you formed a humanities club to discuss my hunger.

i was in prison and you went to a chapel to pray for my release.

i was cold and naked and in your mind you debated the morality of my appearance.

i was homeless and you spoke to me about the spiritual shelter of the house of god.

i was sick and you thanked him for your good health.

i was hurt and you asked for my guidance on your way to mass.

yes, christian, you say you are so close to god, and maybe you are.

but i am still hungry, i am still cold, and i am still sick and hurt."

a friend of mine came up with this, and i thought i would share it. im not particularly spiritual but there is something poignant about this piece.

a reply to: Willtell

Just so I get it...

You don't like those religious folk telling people what to do.... so you will fix it by telling them what to do.

Gotcha.

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: dusty1

You’re absolutely right.

We should be spending an enormous amount of energy on the study of psychological ailments but we don’t

So psychological madness permeates our civilization and we get worse because its passed down to generation after generation…



The drug industry, that powerful selfish lobby of greedy self interest has convinced the psychologist that drugs are the key to mental health...a deadly decision

First it's psychiatrists not psychologists. It's like the difference between a bicycle maker and motorbike maker. They both have two wheels but one is driven by muscles and food while the other is driven by gas. One chooses talk and therapy, the other chooses medication.

Second it's not the psychiatrist choosing medication. It's the people who don't want to spend time on finding answers to life's questions, they just want to get on with their lives and they don't need to do much for taking a pill. There is no definitive book with answers to all life's questions and more that is guaranteed to help you overcome problems while there appears to be a group of people calling themselves soul doctors who say they have something that works or at least has some effect. Ofcourse there are lots of books but that would mean a lot of effort and investing time while medication doesn't cost time nor effort. That's why psychiatry and the pharmaceutical industry is successful. Besides ofcourse their core business of taking care of individuals who can't take care for themselves which is all legitimate but over time they keep moving closer to healthier people insisting they have some problem and there's medication that'll make it better. But that is logical because any business with so much money and power (even courts listen to psychiatrists, sometimes not even looking at any evidence or lack of) attracts a certain kind of human.

Anyway the best marriage is when two lovers make a promise to eachother wihtout letting any one in on it. Those who find true love don't need anything else to make it more real. For most people it's mostly about the money, less about social recognition. Which is what I think it was originally, to let members of the tribe know these two people are no longer eligible for a relationship so there would be less people hitting on them, no temptations or other troubles.

And the good christian to me would be those who follow the laws of the land just as everyone else and let God judge. A life is simply too short to learn about everything and every christian should first help themselves before helping others. Because if an individual is happy, they can share that. But if they are not they can't so they should make themselves happy first. With happy I don't mean anything superficial, caused by earthly events like a standup comedian but the everlasting divine peace. It is the religious road that leads to this heaven, which might be reached in this life or in the next.

originally posted by: johnnyjoe1979
And the good christian to me would be those who follow the laws of the land just as everyone else and let God judge.

Bowing down to false gods is never the right choice...

The creator's law always trumps the creation's law.

The only thing Mrs. Davis is guilty of is having a conscience.

“Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.” ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer

“When people of conviction fight for what's right they often pay a price, but if they don't and we surrender, we will pay a far greater price for bowing to the false God of judicial supremacy. Government is not God. No man - and certainly no unelected lawyer - has the right to redefine the laws of nature or of nature's God."

Huckabee: KY Clerk Shouldn't Bow To 'False God Of Judicial Supremacy'

Kim Davis knows she will one day answer not to Justice Kennedy of the Supreme Court of the United States — she will answer to the Supreme Judge of the Universe.

Folks, you're missing the point about the Kentucky clerk's jail sentence

Christian abolitionists disobeyed the law, helping blacks to escape slavery via the underground railroad. They also broke the law by teaching blacks to read.

Daniel was a high-ranking, highly respected government (King Darius) employee. A new law said everyone must pray only to King Darius. Daniel disobeyed, continuing to pray to the God of Israel. He was arrested and thrown into the lion's den. When interviewed by reporters from the Stone Tablet Times, I suspect some Christians trashed Daniel for noncompliance to the king's law.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were government (King Nebuchadnezzar) appointees. The king built a golden statue, proclaimed it god, and decreed that all must bow down and worship it. Faithful to the true God, the three Hebrew boys disobeyed the law, refusing to bow down or worship the government's statue. They were arrested and thrown into a fiery furnace.

Like Kim Davis, Daniel and the three Hebrew boys believed that the consequence of betraying God is eternal: heaven or hell. It is hard to believe that Christians are now forced to make such a choice in the United States of America.

www.americanthinker.com...

“The Supreme Court cannot and did not make a law,” Huckabee wrote. “They only made a ruling on a law. Congress makes the laws. Because Congress has made no law allowing for same sex marriage, Kim does not have the Constitutional authority to issue a marriage license to homosexual couples.”

dailycaller.com...

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
My argument stands supported by your post: just because something is currently legal, doesn't mean it is appropriate nor Constitutional.

originally posted by: eluryh22
a reply to: Willtell

Just so I get it...

You don't like those religious folk telling people what to do.... so you will fix it by telling them what to do.

Gotcha.

No…It’s the content of what your telling people what to do”

Is it more important to tell people... adults what to drink or having sex or marrying who they want or feeding children?

As for telling people to do this or that…its in their own Holy book!

a reply to: johnnyjoe1979

So in words you agree with me


Its a question of priorities


What's vital and what's secondary


like triage in an emergency ward


As for psychiatrist versus psychologist your right...I was being lazy and couldn't spell psychiatrist

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: johnnyjoe1979
And the good christian to me would be those who follow the laws of the land just as everyone else and let God judge.

Bowing down to false gods is never the right choice...

The Creator's Law always trumps the creation's law.

True but this life is only temporary while the afterlife is eternal. It is there that one is judged, not by some entity but by the laws that govern the eternal life, which is made by God whose plan is perfect even if we can't/don't understand it. The soul is also perfect, to believe otherwise is to set a course for the lower realms.

There's nothing wrong with bowing down to false gods if it saves one from harm. God can know who fakes it and who is sincere. I doubt He'll want me to be used by the sinners so they can commit sins. The false gods or their followers are fake themselves and they'll not be able to tell the difference anyway. In such cases it is better to go underground and continue with faith until the day comes it is safe for the faithful again.

originally posted by: johnnyjoe1979
There's nothing wrong with bowing down to false gods....

These guys would probably agree with you...



God on the other hand:

100 Bible Verses about Worship Of False Gods
www.openbible.info...

68 Bible Verses about False Gods
bible.knowing-jesus.com...

OP...very nice post and thread. I won't contradict you, but simply add this. I agree with you and think you have stumbled a large part of the answer. But the answer that you are so close to but are missing is this. Until we can do all those things for the hungry, the hurt, the damaged...and the killer, we have changed nothing.

It is especially obvious to me here on ATS that even those that stand up for others strongly, only do so when they agree with them. When it is the same situation, but instead of "religious" it is "gay" or instead of "murdered" it is "put to death", etc. We seem to do just fine being nice to those who we personally agree with, but until we can do the same to EVERYONE we DON'T agree with...or even hate...we are stuck in a cycle and not moving further.

No...I don't think a mass murderer should be allowed to live, but I do believe that for us to progress, we need to get to the point that we feel sad and bad for whatever made this person the murderer they are. I think most would agree that a mass murderer is basically born that way, or at least sometimes. That is sad when a person's life, their destiny is to be evil...hurt others and eventually be put to death. We say things like "I hate him for killing her" but the killer had to be born with the ability to kill another (when not an accident). We accept that gay people are born that way, many believe pedophiles are born that way and can't be changed...I think we are all born with the mental ability to be some level of good or bad and other's aren't. It just kind of makes sense. But then when someone says (for example) black people are more prone to violence all hell breaks loose.

While I'm not one that can do what I'm stating...I personally hate the killer. Bestowing "nice" upon only those we agree with or sympathize with is only part of the problem. If we could do the same for those we hate, even if it were a wasted effort...I wonder how the world would be.

Maybe that is why so many believe, or wish for a God?

Christians are and will be forced to get out of the gray area. Everyone will have to make a decision as to where they stand, and there will be many that will attack either verbally or maybe even physically, anyone of christian faith and wouldn't you agree that its happening now. "The time to choice sides is now, Jesus says the day you hear my voice do not harden your heart. He is the only source of peace, in the mist of all this trouble to come".

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

Actually as BS as religion is it answers your questions.

Religion is only theory on paper the problem is that what religion works on—human beings are so messed up—they will mess up the religion.


They antidote takes on the poison of the patient


Your idea of empathy for the other is in the Jesus formula:

Love your enemy

In Islam it is taught that all people are born right but their mother or father perverts them.


The problem is basically what you infer: selfishness

Mrs. Davis is an employee and representative of the government. If she cannot do her job, she should quit. What if she was racist and refused to issue marriage licences to inter-racial couples?

Do you work as a bartender if you have qualms about serving alcohol? No.
Should the police be entitled to be racist if they hold their membership in the KKK as a heartfelt belief? No.


I trust you have common sense people? Use it. Her religion does not matter. She is a government employee and is refusing to conduct actions deemed part of her employment contract, as stated by the Supreme court. Step outside the realms of your bias a moment and just consider the implications of permitting such actions. I do not want to give a "slippery slope" justification however permitting her to do as she did will set precedent in court.

Think, while it still legal.

originally posted by: Willtell

The religious folks are often to self centered and think God needs them to control society

I see more narcissism among none religious people...

Go feed a poor man. Uplift the spirits of a deprived child

Teach a poor disabled or neglected kid something

Buy them a computer… Do something for those in the world denied good

Out of the TOP 50 charities 30 are religious, 9 out of the top 10 are religious, what more do you ask for...oh individual efforts...IDNK, but pick any church and see what they do for their community on a micro level...

That’s the essence of true religion, imho

How do you know? You are not religious, so why do you put some kind of standard on religious people when you have not even researched for a minute it seems...

a reply to: Xtrozero

I know I didn't vote for the church, their god or their laws.

Of course, this could be seen as a problem in the political system, lobby groups have power and they should not. A lobby group, be it the church or business should not be permitted to exercise its will over the government and in turn, the people.

I can manage my life and eternal soul on my own thank you very much church.

I bet they'd be singing a different tune if they were subject to Sharia law, but as it is their own church they see fit to support the manipulation of the government. There's a word for that, hypocrisy. Yes, I understand I just made an assumption.

originally posted by: LilFox

I know I didn't vote for the church, their god or their laws.

What laws are those? Out of the 100s of moral principles that you most likely share with religious people two standout as different.

1. That an unborn child is not an "it".
2. Marriage is an religious event and so should be govern by religious belief, unlike civil unions that are about the same but non-religious.

In the big picture of events..really? These two things need to dominate everything else?

a reply to: Xtrozero

Don't twist my words.

I support mon$anto manipulating the government as much as I support the church doing it. That is to say, I don't support it whatsoever.

Marriage is also something "honored" by the state. Religion doesn't own it. I support the right for the church to say no to marrying a homosexual couple.. but I am talking about the government. That is not the jurisdiction of the church or your opinion.

I didn't vote for your religion and no matter what you think of your standards, you don't have the right to enforce them on others.

It doesn't matter if it is one or a million things, the church should only ever be able to dictate to its followers. KEEP OUT OF OUR AFFAIRS. How simple is that?

Really? Just a couple of things... Tony Abbott spends millions to push God in schools

Let me simplify this for you.
The church does not belong in the affairs of state. Religious beliefs do not permit you to violate the law. You do not have the right to impose your beliefs on other people.

originally posted by: LilFox
I didn't vote for your religion and no matter what you think of your standards, you don't have the right to enforce them on others.

I'm not religious, but I guess things you disagree with is forced on you and those you agree with its OK, seems like the same shoe but different foot...

Let me simplify this for you.
The church does not belong in the affairs of state. Religious beliefs do not permit you to violate the law. You do not have the right to impose your beliefs on other people.

You are right that religions do not have the right to impose their religions on others, we can agree to that, but what is religion and what is basic morals of one's belief?

As example: do all non-religious agree with the abortion issue, and do all religious people agree too with each other?

originally posted by: Xtrozero
I'm not religious, but I guess things you disagree with is forced on you and those you agree with its OK, seems like the same shoe but different foot...

I told you not to twist my words.. and now you are putting them in my mouth.
Once someone begins with fallacious arguments I do not bother with them.
Goodbye.

originally posted by: LilFox

I told you not to twist my words.
Goodbye.

My point is you blame things as religious influence when in fact it is just society norms. Gay bashing of the 70s and 80s as gays fought to come out of "the closet" was not done by religious groups for religious reasons in anyway. One man and one woman has been the definition of marriage in the western world for a very long time with or without religion. It takes time for society norms to change when a minority group wants those changes. We most likely will see polygamy as a norm sometime in the future but society isn't ready for that just yet. Back in 1972 when abortions were made legal do you really think that when America was 80% plus religious it was only non-religious people that made that happen?

When religion wants to impose their religion in schools that is something we can directly say is a black and white no no, but to suggest all society norms that been around a long time as religion being forced on someone is extremely grey and most likely wrong, but hey that is what many non-religious people use as their scapegoat when there is something they disagree with.