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Judge upholds Arizona's 'show your papers' immigration law

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posted on Sep, 8 2015 @ 10:52 AM
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a reply to: boymonkey74



Blimey how many on this thread complain about Orwellian tactics all the time but welcome them in this thread?

You just have to look at who the Orwellian tactics are being used against to know the answer to that. They mainly being used against minorities so it is a "necessary evil" they are willing to put up with when it gets started against the poor to keep them in their place then they will start crying about it.




posted on Sep, 8 2015 @ 10:56 AM
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originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: Vroomfondel



The circumstances under which the ID can be requested and the consequences of not having one are clearly defined. Its no different than having a DL when driving. Or do you have a drama queen hissy fit every time you are forced to "sacrifice your freedom and liberty" by having to carry a drivers license?

Driving a car is not a right it is a privilege. A person does have the right to go about freely without undue harassment.



BTW, how does being asked to show an ID after being stopped legally go against freedom and liberty?

Unless you have broken the law the police have no right to stop you and ask you for any sort of identification.


OK, driving is a privilege, not a right. Agreed. And how do sobriety checkpoints fit in with "the right to go about freely without undue harassment?"

You quoted me as asking, "...how does being asked to show an ID after being stopped legally go against freedom and liberty?
edit on 8-9-2015 by Vroomfondel because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2015 @ 10:58 AM
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a reply to: buster2010

Usually you have broken something when the cops pull you over. SO how is it unlawful for them to ask for ID?



posted on Sep, 8 2015 @ 11:02 AM
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originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: Vroomfondel



The circumstances under which the ID can be requested and the consequences of not having one are clearly defined. Its no different than having a DL when driving. Or do you have a drama queen hissy fit every time you are forced to "sacrifice your freedom and liberty" by having to carry a drivers license?

Driving a car is not a right it is a privilege. A person does have the right to go about freely without undue harassment.



BTW, how does being asked to show an ID after being stopped legally go against freedom and liberty?

Unless you have broken the law the police have no right to stop you and ask you for any sort of identification.


OK, driving is a privilege, not a right. Agreed. And how do sobriety checkpoints fit in with "the right to go about freely without undue harassment?"

You quoted me as asking, "...how does being asked to show an ID after being stopped legally go against freedom and liberty?


I have to ask here. IS it really a privedge or is it just thought to be one? Dont we have th eright to go where we want to? OS if i am disabled and cant go anywhere walking my right is not able to be exercised. But with a vehicle my right to move about freely is restored. It could easily had been a right if the Insurance companies and oil companies and government got together and made it something else.



posted on Sep, 8 2015 @ 11:07 AM
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originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: whyamIhere

So just erode more freedoms right?

You know first they came for the illegals and all that jazz.


Of course they came for the illegals! They're ILLEGAL! You act like no laws were broken. Why is that?



posted on Sep, 8 2015 @ 11:26 AM
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I am amazed that any attempt to determine whether a person is here legally or not is always interpreted as some sort of tyrannical witch hunt. If people delved as deeply into the constitution for legal citizens as much as they did for illegals maybe we would all be better off.

The arguments against a cop asking for an ID and detaining someone who cant/wont provide one are staggeringly pin pointed, and show a determination that leaves the descriptor 'zealous' lacking emphasis. It is often hard to tell with some of these arguments whether the objection is to being asked for an ID or being detained after failing to display one.

The leading edge of many of these arguments is whether a cop has the right to stop you and ask you for an ID. If he has reason to suspect criminal activity of some kind he has the right to ask you who you are. He has the right to ask you if you committed a crime or not. He has the right to investigate further upon finding an initial suspicious element.

If the crime he suspects you of committing is being here illegally, how exactly is he supposed to pursue that without asking you for some kind of proof of citizenship? Whether you agree with it or not, it is possible for people to be in this country illegally and law enforcement has the right to investigate that criminal act. But it seems that people are willing to concede the police officers right to investigate the crime, but only with the condition that he does not have the ability.

There is a fundamental flaw in that logic.



posted on Sep, 8 2015 @ 12:28 PM
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Ah yes, that good Americanism for ya, the land of hypocrisy itself. As long as it's not Anglo-Saxons that's being targeted with out right bigotry and hatred, then it's all good.

It was okay to lock up the Japanese because they were Japanese. It's okay to target black folks with stop and frisk because their black. Okay to target Mexicans because their Mexicans. See the theme there?



posted on Sep, 8 2015 @ 01:07 PM
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originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: buster2010

Usually you have broken something when the cops pull you over. SO how is it unlawful for them to ask for ID?

Except when it comes to Nazi Joe. In his county you can be pulled over just because you have lowered your car or have tinted windows.



posted on Sep, 8 2015 @ 01:15 PM
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a reply to: yuppa

I see your point, but the privilege part was in response to an earlier response I received.



posted on Sep, 8 2015 @ 01:18 PM
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a reply to: TheBulk

www.ushmm.org...

Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Read more at www.brainyquote.com...

The point is that if we are willing to pass laws like this with the justification that it will help catch illegals then why would it stop just there?



posted on Sep, 8 2015 @ 01:27 PM
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originally posted by: cenpuppie
Ah yes, that good Americanism for ya, the land of hypocrisy itself. As long as it's not Anglo-Saxons that's being targeted with out right bigotry and hatred, then it's all good.

It was okay to lock up the Japanese because they were Japanese. It's okay to target black folks with stop and frisk because their black. Okay to target Mexicans because their Mexicans. See the theme there?


Well, it wasn't the Russians who bombed pearl harbor and we were at war. I think that qualifies as extenuating circumstances.

If the black folks are committing crimes maybe they should be targeted. Are we supposed to ignore them because they are black? I know, its profiling. But you know what? The FBI has a whole division of people paid very nice salaries to do exactly that. They do it because it works. At least that is a reasonable assumption to make. As for Mexicans, what exactly is the sheriff supposed to do? On one side he has all the legal residents jumping on his back about the illegals and all the problems they cause at the local level. On the other side he has all the people calling him a racist and accusing him of trampling the constitutional rights of a bunch of people who don't even belong here, for doing his best to solve the problem. How can he proceed without making either side go apoplectic with anger?

Humor me with a little social experiment:

You hear on the news that a donut shop was robbed but only donuts were taken...

What was the first thing that went through your mind? Be honest now... It was cops. Cops love donuts.

PROFILER!!!!



posted on Sep, 8 2015 @ 01:32 PM
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originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: TheBulk

www.ushmm.org...

Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Read more at www.brainyquote.com...

The point is that if we are willing to pass laws like this with the justification that it will help catch illegals then why would it stop just there?



If it is helping to catch people who are doing something illegal, why do you want it to stop? isn't the very purpose of laws to make it possible to identify criminals for the purpose of arrest and prosecution? How do you target criminal activity without targeting criminals?

I think that slope is much more slippery than you would like to admit.



posted on Sep, 8 2015 @ 01:40 PM
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a reply to: Vroomfondel

Because it affects me and I am a citizen.
Que the Niemöller quote.


How do you target criminal activity without targeting criminals?

Not by passing laws that make it so citizens have their rights taken away as well.

It is just like the NSA spying, the Patriot act and the NDAA were all passed with the 'safety' gift wrap, this is same thought process.



posted on Sep, 8 2015 @ 08:24 PM
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originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: buster2010

Usually you have broken something when the cops pull you over. SO how is it unlawful for them to ask for ID?

Except when it comes to Nazi Joe. In his county you can be pulled over just because you have lowered your car or have tinted windows.


Tinted windows is not a pullable suspicion these days. SO many got prescriptions for it they stopped doing it all together in SC. And low suspension is a danger to you and other motorist if its due to your car being in dis repair in the shocks/springs dept. you ever seen a car flip when its suspension bottoms out? Its fine to stop and ask if your cars suspension is good and not about to break.



posted on Sep, 8 2015 @ 08:27 PM
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originally posted by: cenpuppie
Ah yes, that good Americanism for ya, the land of hypocrisy itself. As long as it's not Anglo-Saxons that's being targeted with out right bigotry and hatred, then it's all good.

It was okay to lock up the Japanese because they were Japanese. It's okay to target black folks with stop and frisk because their black. Okay to target Mexicans because their Mexicans. See the theme there?


GErmans were also under scrutiny in the US during WW2. Arent zey vhite too ja?



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 12:39 AM
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a reply to: yuppa

Not before though.
Nazis filled Madison square garden.




posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 01:53 AM
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originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: yuppa

Not before though.
Nazis filled Madison square garden.



Ach but zey vere aftervard mein freund ja?



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 01:56 AM
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a reply to: yuppa

I'm banned from Germany because of my war comments


Ve Have Vays to make ze Talk ze english svine!!.



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 02:16 AM
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originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: yuppa

I'm banned from Germany because of my war comments


Ve Have Vays to make ze Talk ze english svine!!.


Id prolly be banned from germany too lol!!



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 02:33 AM
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a reply to: Vroomfondel

If the black folks are committing crimes maybe they should be targeted.
Of course, no white folks commit crimes, do they?


How can he proceed without making either side go apoplectic with anger?
You mean by respecting the rights of everyone (which is supposed to be the point, isn't it?), he might have to give up his job? Sort of like that woman in Kentucky?


What was the first thing that went through your mind? Be honest now... It was cops. Cops love donuts.
That's just stupid. And not funny in the least.



If it is helping to catch people who are doing something illegal, why do you want it to stop?
Because it infringes on the rights of citizens. It means anyone can be detained if they do not have an ID on them.



How do you target criminal activity without targeting criminals?
So, everyone who looks Mexican is a criminal. Got it.



I think that slope is much more slippery than you would like to admit.
I don't think you are aware of which direction that slope goes.
edit on 9/9/2015 by Phage because: (no reason given)




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