What do you give a God who has everything? (Index thread)

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
If God did not want human sacrifice then why did he require the human sacrifice of his Son on the cross?

The comment in the text was referring to "human sacrifice" in the standard sense, in which (as in other forms of sacrifice), a third party is making the offering.
The death of Jesus is understood to be a self-offering, which is a different kind of situation.

This thread being deliberately focussed on the Old Testament, I won't be getting into New Testament arguments.

a reply to: ZeussusZ
We can make it "nearly everything", if you're going to get picky.
The title took that form because it was a fairly obvious reference to an old cliche.

a reply to: DISRAELI

The lesson being taught by the story of the Garden of Eden is that obedience is missing.
So that is something which he still wants from us.

So, God wants "us" to give up our free will in exchange for obedience? Yeah, that's something he can want all day, and not get from me.

I guess God is a "Wanting" God.

a reply to: windword
I expect he has received your message.
You and he can sort that out between you.

a reply to: DISRAELI

We've been through this. There's nothing in the Garden of Eden story to validate your theory. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden for becoming like their creators, "knowing good and evil". Not because of disobedience, not because of "original sin".

Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever "-- therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

Since God is all present and all knowing, it had to have been within his will and his plan that Adam and Eve ate of the fruit.

originally posted by: windword
We've been through this. There's nothing in the Garden of Eden story to validate your theory. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden for becoming like their creators, "knowing good and evil". Not because of disobedience, not because of "original sin".

And I've been through this in my own relevant threads.
Firstly, "knowing good and evil" was an act of disobedience. They had been told not to do it, and they disobeyed. So expelling them for that is expelling them for disobedience.
Also they became "like God" only in one respect, not in every respect. They were "knowing good and evil", that is, deciding for themselves the boundary between the two categories.
When did we last discuss this? If we're going to go round in circular arguments, I would rather save work and paste the originals.

a reply to: DISRAELI

So expelling them for that is expelling them for disobedience.

That's not what the Bible says. The Bible is clear about that. They were evicted, not for disobedience, that in and of itself is not a crime that was eviction worthy. What was eviction worthy was their becoming like God, knowing good and evil, and if they continued their residence in the garden, they would have lived forever. God didn't want them to live forever, since they now knew good and evil, so he sent them out.

God must have known that he serpent would outsmart Eve, and that Eve would tempt Adam, but he allowed the serpent to influence them anyway. If God is all knowing and all present, then their eating the fruit had to be within his will and within his plan. It can't be any other way.

Further, God told Cain that he must master sin.

Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.

Sin can't be mastered if we're instead killing animals, or expecting God to kill a perfect human, placing our sin on another to bear for us.

a reply to: windword
And before then, he said to Adam "Because you have...eaten of the tree of which I commanded you 'You shall not eat of it...".
These two speeches are just two different ways of describing the one basic issue that they were detaching themselves from the will of God.
And "expulsion from the garden" and the "curse" outlined to Adam are two different ways of describing the same outcome.

I'm not going to follow you into your maze of "he must have thought this and intended that", because I see no need for it.
Your first post in this thread was your substantive argument.You don't want to obey God, so you are looking for reasons not to obey him.

a reply to: DISRAELI

And before then, he said to Adam "Because you have...eaten of the tree of which I commanded you 'You shall not eat of it...".

Exactly....you prove my point. They were punished one way for disobedience. They were evicted because they had become like God.

Eating the fruit had to have been part of God's plan from the beginning. It symbolizes adolescence. The story is one of mankind reaching a point of adolescence, in which a young man/woman leaves home. There comes a time when young people will not, should not and can no longer follow their parents rules, and have to strike out on their own. This is the story of the Garden. They no longer have access to daddy's wallet and have to make a go of it from scratch, braving the cold cruel world on their own.

Your first post in this thread was your substantive argument.You don't want to obey God, so you are looking for reasons not to obey him.

That comment was based on your theory that God already "has" everything, but wants my obedience. I reject that theory and I reject the concept of a God that "needs" or "wants" anything from me.

a reply to: HUMBLEONE

How about a pair of furry pink panties and a electric lime green tu tu?

pssst, won't work, they're HIS already......

a reply to: DISRAELI

Your thoughts and prayers are enough.
Given honestly of your own free will.

It will not even cost you a dime for the "phone call".

S&F

Gods want us to want him and he wont force us too, it must be our free will. If we come to him by faith through his son we are a living sacrifice.

Thanks Disraeli

Why does God care that we bow down to him?

Is he afraid we'll bow down to someone else?
Like ourself?

Isnt God like the God?

What is he insecure or something?

a reply to: NowWhat
"Fear" is the wrong word.
When a teacher wants the class to focus on the blackboard and himself rather than looking out of the window or sending text messages, is that fear?

I put it to you that obedience may be in our own best interests because
a) On the presumption (implied by the title) that the Creator God is making the demand, accepting it is a recognition of reality.
b) The most fundamental commands are about our treatment of each other. This is what Jesus was pointing out.
In effect, "Obey me" and "Love one another" are the same instruction.
The choice is between that, which will move us forward, and our obstreporous self-will, which will pull us back.

For information;
In the near future there will also be an Index thread covering the question of "Remedies for sin in the Old Testament", which has been the theme of a parallel series of threads.

God only wants bananas.

a reply to: boymonkey74
I suggested what I thought was a better answer in the opening post.
(Looks like it's only us tonight. I've only just worked out where all the Americans are).