No mentioning Jesus death in Nicene Creed

And even though he was tortured and "almost killed" he was perfectly fine 3 days later?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: raymundoko
And even though he was tortured and "almost killed" he was perfectly fine 3 days later?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I made a post on the previous page going over a few different issues with the bible and this incident. I find it very odd that people who don't believe it would take a literalist point of view to then say it didn't happen. If you don't believe then the absolute least plausible view is the literalist view anyway. It's like I don't believe at all, because I don't believe I will use the most non believable view even for those who have faith to show why I don't believe.????????

At least with those who look at historically, geanology, or even the people and events aren't real but the lessons can be understood seem to use a much more honest approach for not believing.

In other words if you are one end of the spectrum ( don't believe) why would you then use the most unbelievable opposite end ( literalist) as the reasoning of non belief.

I would understand if you didn't believe and then took a historical view, then used actual history to argue disbelief. A literalist view though can't happen, the only way it could would be because of divine intervention and I guess that's the reason for being a literalist. But if someone doesn't believe in God, then taking the point of view that could only be explained by believing in God which non believers don't anyway, to then argue disbelief....anyone else find that whole concept a little nutty or is it just me?

In the end it's a personal chouce, make the best one for you.

You have to take a literalist point of view as that is all that is allowed here...

The Jews believe that one day all who are dead will be resurrected to a paradise.

They also have prophecy that a messiah will arise and die to then be resurrected.

Jesus had to meet those requirements to be accepted as the messiah. To come to the conclusion that he lived and never died makes him a mere prophet as the Muslims portray him and that the messiah has yet to come.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

a reply to: raymundoko

They also have prophecy that a messiah will arise and die to then be resurrected.

Can you cite that prophecy?

originally posted by: raymundoko
You have to take a literalist point of view as that is all that is allowed here...

The Jews believe that one day all who are dead will be resurrected to a paradise.

They also have prophecy that a messiah will arise and die to then be resurrected.

Jesus had to meet those requirements to be accepted as the messiah. To come to the conclusion that he lived and never died makes him a mere prophet as the Muslims portray him and that the messiah has yet to come.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

Who said literalist is the only view allowed here. I've posted from many points of view on these topics. Not only did ats not delete the post because they weren't literalist point of view but people actually debated based on the view I was posting from.

Sorry that's not true nor accurate. It's like saying yeah it's kind of nutty but the only way to do it.

a reply to: raymundoko

They also have prophecy that a messiah will arise and die to then be resurrected.

Can you cite that prophecy?

Just in case you're searching, don't bother. There is no such prophecy in the Bible.

a reply to: raymundoko

Oh, I've been in some pretty messed up conditions meself, and it's miraculous what a couple of days in a hospital bed can do, with some white-clad nurses and doctors to care for you. I fell down from a tree once (I know, it's getting old, but it's fitting, see?) and was nearly unable to breathe and move and every bone in the body hurt. Was rushed to a hospital with a ruptured lung and a displaced spine, and a surgeon stuck a knife into my chest to enable me to breathe again. Three days later I was discharged and walked out of the hospital without a limp. First night I managed to crawl down and up four floors to smoke, not once or twice, but three times. It did take me all night though. I'd love to have snapped a photograph of Jesus sneaking out of the tomb for a smoke and a boast with the nurses.

So Jesus had modern medicine?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Are you seriously asking about the Jewish messiah prophecy? Shirley, you can't be serious!

a reply to: windword

Isaiah speaks of one who will rise, perform signs, be falsely accused, killed with transgressors and buried in a rich mans tomb and born again in spirit. Ch 7, 50, 53

The psalms tell how the messiah will be tortured and crucified and how the body will not decay and will be pulled from Sheol. Ch 16, 22

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
In several forms? He was unrecognisable since they shaved off his hair and beard. He had to go incognito to avoid being caught by the Romans and crucified again. He was hiding. Would be pretty stupid to bail on your execution and then show up everywhere being recognisable, eh?

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
God doesn't lie either - but he veils the truth from those who consider themselves wise in their own eyes...

One day all truth will be revealed, but right now the truth is far too unpalatable for most...

"The truth tastes funny to those accustomed to a steady diet of lies." ~ Dave vonKleist

Also with knowledge comes great responsibility.

Knowledge in the wrong hands is not always a good thing.

Some things are best kept on a need to know basis.

"In fact, everything that My children need to know about how God thinks and works and judges and rewards, either before or after the Cross, is already in My Book."

www.ctestimony.org...

originally posted by: raymundoko
Are you seriously asking about the Jewish messiah prophecy? Shirley, you can't be serious!

a reply to: windword

Well, show it to me then, if you can. I'm telling you there is no prophecy of a dying and resurrecting Messiah in the Bible ie Old Testament.

Then you have never read it. Even in the book of acts they outline the various prophecies they claim Jesus fulfilled including his death and resurrection. I updated my previous post with the pertinent books and chapters.

a reply to: windword

a reply to: raymundoko

Show me the prophecy!

I don't care about people saying there's a prophecy, show me the prophecy! The New Testament claims to fulfill a lot of prophecies that aren't found in the Old Testament. Like, for example, Jesus was supposedly from Nazareth, a city that is never mentioned in the Old Testament, so that the he could be called a Nazarene, a non extant prophecy.

Why are you suddenly discussing Nazarene? You asked for a prophecy about the death and resurrection of the messiah, I gave them to you.

a reply to: windword

originally posted by: raymundoko
Why are you suddenly discussing Nazarene? You asked for a prophecy about the death and resurrection of the messiah, I gave them to you.

a reply to: windword

No you didn't! All you did was allude to the fact that the New Testament says there is such a prophecy. Show me the prophecy! There is NO prophecy about a Messiah that dies and is resurrected in the Old Testament.

I presented the example of Nazareth, because that also is supposedly, according to the New Testament, a prophecy. But, it is absent in the Old Testament.

So Jewish scholars who believe psalms and Isaiah talk about what will happen to the messiah are wrong?

a reply to: windword

a reply to: raymundoko

There is no prophecy in Psalms or Isaiah about a dying and resurrected Messiah, let alone one that is God incarnate!

But, please, cite the prophecies that you're referring to.

Why do you keep asking me to cite what I already did?

a reply to: windword

a reply to: raymundoko

I must have missed it. Where did you cite it? Saying that there's something in Isaiah and/or Psalms ins't a citation. Cite the verses. Prove your assertion!

a reply to: windword

Actually there is a prophecy about the Lord coming to his temple.

Malachi 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

According to Malachi the job of Messiah was to have been either a 3 or 4 man job. Also see this verse.

Malachi 4
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Now here's the problem with Malachi 4-5

Matthew 17
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

The problem I figured out here was that the first century apocalypse was botched. John the Baptist was supposed to have lived and accompanied Jesus Christ into the temple when he went there. Malachi 3-1 only had a partial fulfillment. It needs to happen again.