No mentioning Jesus death in Nicene Creed

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

What ever happened to «Jesus died to atone for the sins of humankind?» Try to question that in front of a packed Easter Mass. You don't wanna do that. Trust me. I actually did that once. I could have been killed at the spot had not the priest managed to pull me out of their claws and escorted me out the back. Never saw such a face on a priest ever. Last time I show up pissed in the Catholic Church during the most important Mass of the year. Won't happen again! Promise.

well, that IS an interesting response.

"jesus died for our sins - oh, you dont agree with us? WE WILL F***ING MURDER YOU IN FRONT OF HIS STATUE!!!"

a reply to: DISRAELI

Were you there? Present something more than your own personal opinion of what a word might imply. Let me help you, the word is actually Gr. παθόντα form of Gr, πάσχω «pascho» (see Thayer's def for Strong's 3958 below) simply means victimised, judged, suffering or undergoing a passion (looks similar to Heb. «Pasche» Passover), and Lat. Passus (not same as pass in modern English), means undergo or suffer. The word for Rise is Gr. ἀναστάντα is a form of the verb ἀνίστημι «anistémi», it means simply he rose with nothing implying him having been dead. Seen in connection, Gr. παθόντα, καὶ ἀναστάντα reads «He suffered, and he rose». Like I said no mentioning Jesus dying anywhere in the original text.

3958 pásxō (a primitive verb) – properly, to feel heavy emotion, especially suffering; affected, experiencing feeling (literally "sensible" = "sensed-experience"); "the feeling of the mind, emotion, passion" (J. Thayer).

It was Judas who was put on the cross. Most people don't know that Judas was Jesus's twin. Before the Roman centurions could apprehend Jesus, he arose bodily in a whirlwind. When Judas ran outside to tell what had happened, he was taken instead. This is knowledge that the church suppresses with the most vigor. This info comes from the Gospel of Judas portion of the Nag Hammadi texts.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim
As one who cannot tell the difference between TAU and THETA, you are not strongly placed to offer lectures on the meaning of Greek texts.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

If you return to life the doctor pronouncing you dead was wrong and made a near-fatal mistake. It just doesn't happen that dead people come back to life.

Actually people have been said to be buried alive and people have died for a period of time only to wake back up and scare the crap out of everyone, doc included. I get what you are saying though.

Risen/Rose can be anything. He suffered, then he rose and descended to heaven sounds to me like he died.

Otherwise he rose physically in the air waving to people bye. lol

People that claim they to talk to the dead... the "dead" say that On the 3rd day we all rise to heaven ( our souls not our bodies of course). The 3 days are said to be transitioning days from this life to the next. They are able to view their funeral and everything. Who knows.... I dont. Just stating my opinion and what I have gathered over the years to be credible information.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I am the first to admit my Greek is terrible, but this is just bollocks. The given transliteration of theta you bring up is completely irrelevant. Thera (the word I referred to in that other thread from the etymology of t(h)erion) comes from the same word as San-tori-ni, no Theta there, same word different language. It is common in English to transliterate Theta with th as compared to Tau which is normally written t, but the truth is theta and tau sounds almost identical, and in most cases a simple T covers it. As you will understand when researching words' etymologies is that the first thing that is out the window is morphology. The Th-sound involved with the Greek Theta isn't the same as th- in English at all, but an aspirated t, as in the t in tan /tàn/ [tʰân]. That— and sod off back to your hole.

originally posted by: MamaJ
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

If you return to life the doctor pronouncing you dead was wrong and made a near-fatal mistake. It just doesn't happen that dead people come back to life.

Actually people have been said to be buried alive and people have died for a period of time only to wake back up and scare the crap out of everyone, doc included. I get what you are saying though.

Buried alive sort of implies they weren't dead, right? And people have been pronounced dead and later proven to be alive plenty times, but none have been truly dead for more than a few seconds as the body starts decomposing pretty much straight away. Brains are mainly structural fat and can you imagine how the most complex structures we know in the universe— the brain— tackles decay?

Risen/Rose can be anything. He suffered, then he rose and descended to heaven sounds to me like he died.

I guess you meant ascended to heaven? Nevermind, it happened halfway round the globe anyway, descended works for me. But it sounds like dying because that is the myth our civilisation teaches us from we were wee kids, see, we suffer and die and our souls go to heaven. BS. We ARE in heaven. Earth is just another planet. We are already in heaven. I know that. You know that. We don't need a 1000 year old retold fairytale to let us make believe. And I also know I am very much alive.

Most Christians survived death by baptism, that was real easy, and I bet most of them could have figured out how to get stoned without too many hazards involved, and probably, 99.9% of all that ever suffered something or anything came out safe and well too, but can they survive crucifixion like Jesus did? Like a boss? And could they ever be forgiven for denying Jesus living when he needed it the most? I mean, now that they even know exactly how it could have been done and how it most likely happened if you ask me? Jesus survived the execution. No magic freedom of original sin. The rumours of his death are highly exaggerated.

Otherwise he rose physically in the air waving to people bye. lol

Bungie. Reversed. Probably lost a bet. Iron-age penalty for stealing donkeys and creating havoc in the City. At least he didn't have to think about the costs of his rampage, his accountant went off and killed himself. All Jesus had to do was getting away fast without a trail, him saying to the Boys he's leaving for «Heaven», well, sounds plausible.

People that claim they to talk to the dead... the "dead" say that On the 3rd day we all rise to heaven ( our souls not our bodies of course). The 3 days are said to be transitioning days from this life to the next. They are able to view their funeral and everything. Who knows.... I dont. Just stating my opinion and what I have gathered over the years to be credible information.

When you die, time stops, the given body you inhabit dies, stops working. In notime your nous is back in another version of yourself, for we live in a multiverse, see? And for all you know you may have died a million times without having noticed it, since your mind automatically transferred to another idle version of your self. That's how I see it anyway.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
When you're dead, you're dead, there's no way back.

The Word of God says otherwise.

He's usually right yah know...

So does all the evidence...

Speaking of which, wheres yours?

Opinions are cool, but a little evidence goes a long way.

All of my research suggests that there is a massive amount of evidence that says just the opposite.

Even Jesus' own disciples refused to believe at first that He had come back from the dead so guess that's understandable...

I have to admit that when I first started researching this I was very reluctant to believe it as well.

It took me a long time but when I finally realized that the vast majority of what people are saying about it is a lie, THAT'S when things began to finally come together.

I eventually learned that there is a HUGE amount of disinfo regarding it.

The fact that people are being raised from the dead on a daily basis to me is proof that death IS in fact reversible.

The evidence is just far too massive for it to be not true.

Bush pastors Rolland and Heidi Baker for example have seen over 100 people raised from the dead in Mozambique...

T.L. Osborne has raised over 100 people from the dead in Africa.

Smith Wigglesworth raised at least 25 people from the dead including his wife.

David Hogan's ministry in Mexico has raised over 400 people from the dead.

Dave Roberson has raised 30+ people from the dead.

When you add to that the fact that so many of these are coming back with proof, Colton Burpo's case for example, who died and met his own unborn sister that he had never even been told about, things get even more interesting.

Death IS in fact reversible.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. Such occurrences as this are happening with increasing frequency in the world. In one ministry alone, in Mozambique, Iris Ministries with Rolland and Heidi Baker have seen over 100 people raised from the dead, many of them documented-and miraculous healings that bring entire villages to Christ (over 8000 last count).

blog.godreports.com...

Surprise Sithole has prayed for 8 dead people who came back to life! Those under him prayed for more than 100 dead people who have come back to life!

Rolland and Heidi Baker, Founders of Iris Ministries, have seen more than eighty people raised from the dead in their ministry in Africa...

When Heaven Comes Down

CALEME, TERESOPOLIS, Brazil – People of the barrio of Caleme have witnessed Saturday 5 dead bodies raised from the dead in the street. Another 10 bodies from the morgue have been raised to life. One woman who drowned and was dead was also raised back to life. The people in Caleme reported that 5 American men went near the 5 bodies and yelled, “Rise and live in the name of Jesus.” The dead bodies started to shake and stood up and walked and are alive.

At the nearby morgue, there were 10 dead bodies in the hallway. People said that 5 foreign women went near the bodies and said, “Rise and live in the name of Jesus.” The dead bodies shook and stood up shaking and walking and were alive. People were screaming, yelling. Riot at the barrio of Caleme.

These 5 dead bodies in the street of Caleme have been dead since Wednesday January 12. The 10 dead bodies in the morgue have been left in the hallway since Wednesday. People have talked to the dead risen. They were still weak but were able to talk and they said, “I was in a dark place many people crying, shouting. Was I asleep? Now I am alive!” “I know I was dead. I was in a dark, ugly place. I do not know what happened, but I am back to life. God is alive.”

16 Dead Bodies Confirmed Resurrected from the Dead

Then Jesus appeared to two of His disciples on the road to Emmaus. He started from the very beginning of the Scriptures and explained that He was the Messiah - God’s plan to take away the sin of all who would believe in Him. Jesus wanted them to understand God’s plan, and believe in Him. He wants the same for us today.

The two disciples ran back to find the other disciples and tell them that Jesus was alive. Still, the other disciples did not believe because they had not seen Jesus." ~ Mark 16:12-13

The Raising of Lazarus

Jesus, intensely moved again, came to the tomb. (Now it was a cave, and a stone was placed across it.) Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the deceased, replied, “Lord, by this time the body will have a bad smell, because he has been buried four days.” Jesus responded, “Didn’t I tell you that if you believe, you would see the glory of God?”

So they took away the stone. Jesus looked upward and said, “Father, I thank you that you have listened to me. I knew that you always listen to me, but I said this for the sake of the crowd standing around here, that they may believe that you sent me.” When he had said this, he shouted in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” The one who had died came out, his feet and hands tied up with strips of cloth, and a cloth wrapped around his face.

When Jesus died there was a violent earthquake and the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom. The Bible says tombs were opened and many bodies of saints arose from the dead. It says that after Jesus' resurrection they went into Jerusalem where many people witnessed their return to life. ~ Mt 27:51-53

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" ~ John 11:25

a reply to: burdman30ott6

The Nicene Creed was the 4th Century's attempt at political correctness....

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
When you're dead, you're dead, there's no way back.

The Word of God says otherwise.

Paul's opinions is The Word of God?

(gave the rest of your post to Terra Mater, she seems to have liked it.)

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
Paul's opinions is The Word of God?

Yours certainly aren't...

The fact that your opinion is all you ever post tells me somethings obviously very wrong with the picture.

I refuse to take anyone seriously who appears to be hiding the reasons why they believe what they believe.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

It doesn't say giving up his spirit. It says giving up his pnauma, his breath, his lungs stop working. I did that once meself actually. Had to go through the exact same procedure as Jesus too actually, but I am still alive. To stop breathing doesn't mean that you die. It means you stop breathing. Like I said, it happens, no death need apply.

*whispers: right! *

See how the whole "translated" and edited versions are so unreliable?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Yes I meant ascended. lol

The people that have died to come back and tell their experience say they knew immediately or eventually they were "dead". They saw their body and their family as well as their funeral. They understand life clearly on the other side.

Im still in the same reality I was born in. I can tell Im not "dead" yet.

My point is Jesus may have suffered and rose but we dont know how he rose or if he even existed.

We either have faith he did or we dont

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
Paul's opinions is The Word of God?

Yours certainly aren't...

Damned right they're not. Did you have to check?

The fact that your opinion is all you ever post tells me somethings obviously very wrong with the picture.

Wait. What's WRONG with THIS picture?!? Am I not entitled to share my research and opinions? Do I have to speak the Word of God every damn time I post here.

I refuse to take anyone seriously who appears to be hiding the reasons why they believe what they believe.

Hah bloody Hah!

Bollocks! Had his suffering-or-not been controversial it would most likely NOT have been any references to it

Of course it was controversial. And of course controversies are the subject of creeds. That's why they had councils and wrote creeds--to resolve controversies. The really big ones, back in the day, were primarily Christological. That's why the Son gets so much attention in the Nicene Creed, the Father only a brief introduction, and the Holy Spirit is just a footnote. The Creed emphasizes the distinct personhood of the Son vis-a-vis the other persons of the godhead, that this person (the Son) and not the others suffered, and that the suffering was real.

It doesn't say giving up his spirit. It says giving up his pnauma, his breath, his lungs stop working. I did that once meself actually. Had to go through the exact same procedure as Jesus too actually, but I am still alive. To stop breathing doesn't mean that you die. It means you stop breathing. Like I said, it happens, no death need apply.

If you want to cherry-pick definitions and ignore context, sure. We could also say Jesus "gave up his flatulence" and let loose a mighty fart. It would be contrary to a couple thousand years of unbroken tradition, but if we were really obstinate, we could force that reading onto the text.

Of course, it's not only the Gospels that say Jesus died. Paul says so, in 1 Cor 15:3. John of Patmos says so in Rev 1:5. Clement of Rome says so in 1 Clem 24:1. And there's Ignatius of Anticoch in his letter to the Ephesians (19:1). And Irenaeus in Against Heresies (V.7). It was the universal belief of the Ante-Nicene Church that Jesus died on Golgotha.

What ever happened to «Jesus died to atone for the sins of humankind?» Try to question that in front of a packed Easter Mass. You don't wanna do that. Trust me.

Right, it's generally considered bad form to go to a religious observance and start theological arguments in the middle of the ritual. Some religions, in some places, would have tortured you or killed you for that. Rudeness is not tolerated equally around the globe.

I am not a biblical scholar by any means. Lee Strobel explains in his book, A Case for Easter, how no human could survive what the Romans put Christ through what they did and then also survive a crucifixion.
As far as the resurrection is concerned, here is a 6 or so minute clip of Lee Strobel's explanation.

youtu.be...

Sorry, I'm a bit technically challenged and I am trying my best to learn how to link and embed things.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
What's WRONG with THIS picture?!?

Lots...

The 'swoon' theory has been disregarded by almost all scholars.

Even Christianity's own enemies have admitted that the theory is ridiculous.

This theory was first proposed by the European scholars Bahrdt and Venturini just two hundred years ago, almost eighteen hundred years after Jesus' time. This view has not been widely held by non-Christian scholars since the 19th century rationalist theologian David Strauss dealt it a death blow. He wrote:

"It is impossible that a being who had stolen half dead out of the sepulchre, who crept about weak and ill and wanting medical treatment... could have given the disciples the impression that he was a conqueror over death and the grave, the Prince of life: an impression that lay at the bottom of their future ministry."

Strauss himself was an opponent of Christianity, but he admitted that this theory was particularly ridiculous and weak. Nowadays almost no Western scholar holds to this theory.

www.unchangingword.com...

The Swoon theory has been thoroughly refuted by many people, and very few continue to bring it up as a possibility. The Swoon theory falls apart quickly when you consider that Jesus had undergone six trials, was beaten, then scourged with 39 lashes that left His back raw, exposed, and bloody. He had a crown of thorns forced upon His head, ripping His scalp.

He had been crucified with nails in the hands and feet, and He hung there for six hours bleeding and dehydrating. His spear-pierced side emitted blood and water. He was left in a tomb for three days and was tightly wrapped up. Was anyone in this condition able to revive, get himself out of the tight wrappings, and then walk on pierced feet?

Could He single-handedly move a large stone with hands that were unusable due to the wrist piercings which severed the median nerve and paralyzed them? Could He then somehow get by the armed guards given the charge of watching the grave-side? Are we to believe further that Jesus managed to walk a long distance on feet which had been pierced and then appear to the disciples as a victorious conqueror of death? It makes no sense. In fact, it would take more to believe this ridiculous conjecture than it would to believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

carm.org...

Such strange "twists" to the swoon theory have been virtually ignored by scholars with good reason, for serious problems invalidate each of these theses.

It is no wonder that such a variant hypothesis has had very little following even among critics. The late dates of the sources and the lack of recognition by both Jesus' loved ones and his enemies alike, even at extremely close range, together with his glorified but scarred post crucifixion appearances, combine to make this assertion quite unpalatable to scholars.

www.garyhabermas.com...

The swoon theory is one of Satan's oldest lies concerning the Resurrection. This theory proposes that Jesus did not rise from the dead, because He never really died. Instead, Jesus went into a deep coma or "swoon" from the severe pain and trauma of the Crucifixion. Then, in the cool atmosphere of the tomb, Christ revived, somehow escaped the strips of cloths that were wrapped tightly upon Him, and then appeared to His disciples.

The swoon theory flies in the face of the facts. You see, the Roman guards were experts at execution and would be put to death if they allowed a condemned man, like Christ, to escape death. The guards were certain Jesus was dead, because when they thrust a spear into His side, it brought forth blood and water. This was their final proof of His death because this occurs when the heart stops beating.

Amazingly enough, people still subscribe to this theory. Not because it's plausible. Not because it's logical, but because it's something to hang their doubt on. The truth of the matter is that Jesus Christ has risen!

www.jesus.org...

This theory completely ignores the evidences of His death and would require a greater miracle than the resurrection.

...preceding the crucifixion, Jesus was exposed to a brutal flogging by the Roman soldiers. Some people would die from this kind of beating even before they could be crucified. On other occasions the victim would go into a state called Hypovolemic shock. It is a condition in which the person suffers the effects of losing a large amount of blood. In this state, the heart tries to pump blood which isn't there.

Once a person is hanging in the vertical position, crucifixion is essentially an agonizingly slow death by asphyxiation. This would go on and on until complete exhaustion would take over, and the person would'nt be able to push and breathe anymore. To say that anyone could survive such a punishment and survive is lunacy.

binnyva.tripod.com...

a reply to: Murgatroid

The 'swoon' theory has been disregarded by almost all scholars.

I'm so sick of this kind of BS when it come to the fallacies of religion, and specifically, the resurrection of Jesus. What you really mean is, most intellectually dishonest, biased Christian Bible scholars disregard the "swoon" theory.

People don't rise from the dead. If Jesus existed, and the stories are to be believed in the slightest, then Jesus survived his ordeal. Either that, or people were making stuff up. Bodies don't come back from the dead.

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
Organized religion is a huge fabrication.

100% correct...

Which is why Jesus opposed religion and the religious people hated Him so fiercely.

IMHO God is NOT religious.

Nor is He the one behind religion.

"What if I told you Jesus came to abolish religion... just because you call some people blind doesn’t automatically give you vision..."

That is semantics though... It tries to set up "religion" as all of the other religions and philosophies, and the mystical and faith-based focus on Jesus' salvation somehow not religion. It's important to realize that most non-Christians don't buy that argument at all.

Just because we aren't capable of resurrection, doesn't mean that Jesus or Ets can't. Actually, any race advanced enough would probably achieve this eventually. We can clone already. Who's to say there aren't others out there who can achieve much more?