Early silence and doubts about Jesus

What is truth?

The truth is that I am and there is.

Order? Compared to what? A dis-ordered universe?

The order that is the binding force of creation. That ensures that there is existence not non-existence. The order of cause and effect. The order that is mirrored in all of creation.

God is chemical reactions?

The elements have a beginning. God does not have a beginning.

Perfection? what is perfect?

God is perfect. He is the clearest, most powerful and highest state of being.

After every arguement I've heard from theists, the only thing God is, is senseless.

You cannot make sense of what you cannot understand. Don't even try to.

In other words it's scientific dogma? The scientific church does not ordain it so it cannot be logical?

All semantical arguements aside, yes. Science could accept God if it was presented in a logical manner. Unfortunately, it is all arguements from ignorance.

When will you understand that we don't want acceptance from your Scientific Church. Rather, you will have to accept, that there are forces beyond your comprehension at work in this universe. You will have to accept that you cannot judge an unobservable universe. You have to accept that there is an unobservable universe.

And that is an arguement from ignorance. Evolution does not state we came from nothing, it addresses how species evolve over time through nature. The mechanism is natural selection.

We are not discussing the effects but the cause. In the logical world there is a beginning, a middle and an end. What is the beginning, the middle and the end of the universe?

I can substantiate it through the Bible. I have, you know this, so then you ask me to absolutely prove it, with some type of knowledge outside of the Bible, which you know, is impossible. Im just going by what their book says. Note that I dont necessarily believe all of the events happenend in the Bible, im their story to show how Jesus represents not only "love" but the God of the OT as well, which commanded the israelites to commit genocide.

Well, then let's hear those passages that show this. You do realize that if Jesus's way and truth was from the OT, then there would be no NT.

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

When will you understand that we don't want acceptance from your Scientific Church. Rather, you will have to accept, that there are forces beyond your comprehension at work in this universe. You will have to accept that you cannot judge an unobservable universe. You have to accept that there is an unobservable universe.

We do accept this, yet we still strive to understand the universe, and not say Goddidit everytime something isnt understood.

We are not discussing the effects but the cause. In the logical world there is a beginning, a middle and an end. What is the beginning, the middle and the end of the universe?

Im not sure. Im also not sure if the universe has a first cause, or why a first cause would HAVE to be "truth, love, absolute, perfection, harmony" etc. In other words, what you feel to be "God".

Well, then let's hear those passages that show this. You do realize that if Jesus's way and truth was from the OT, then there would be no NT.

I never said Jesus' way and truth was from the OT, I said that he represents the God from the OT. What passages are you looking for? The passages where God commanded the israelites to commit genocide?

Alex, I can't follow this anymore; it's too much straining at gnats.

For those who have a personal relationship with the Father, with the Son or with the Holy Spirit, all this techno-babble just gets in the way.

Maybe I'm just lazy, but, God and I visit and He gives me good advice; and I just as soon leave it at that.

No more pontificating. Happy New Year. I'm getting a glass of wine and calling my daughter.

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel

When will you understand that we don't want acceptance from your Scientific Church. Rather, you will have to accept, that there are forces beyond your comprehension at work in this universe. You will have to accept that you cannot judge an unobservable universe. You have to accept that there is an unobservable universe.

We do accept this, yet we still strive to understand the universe, and not say Goddidit everytime something isnt understood.

Alec, it is perfectly logical for a person to say 'God did it.' Any Christian, and alot of others, know that God did it. Now comes the hard part - How did he do it. We know he did it, so the only thing we need to find out is how. That may be an impossibility, but we can try anyways. What's the worst that can happen? We don't find out. How are worse off? Can't we try to understand something that we know God did?

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel

Well, then let's hear those passages that show this. You do realize that if Jesus's way and truth was from the OT, then there would be no NT.

I never said Jesus' way and truth was from the OT, I said that he represents the God from the OT. What passages are you looking for? The passages where God commanded the israelites to commit genocide?

I am almost sure that one of the passages you will refer to is in Joshua 7, where Achan and his family are killed. Does this mean that you don't believe that there should be any punishment for wrong doings? God told them to utterly destroy the place and take nothing for themselves. Achan ignored that, he took plunder for personal gain.

I just thought of something else...
Are you saying that the conquest of the promised land is genocide, becasue when you used the word 'genocide,' I assumed that you were talking of Jews killing Jews.

The conquest of the promised land is a hard thing to understand. Before Abraham had any sons, God came to him and told him that he was going to be that father of many nations and that the land of Canaan would always belong to him and his line. (Genesis 12:7) Joeseph is sold into slavery and then ends up in the courts of the Pharoah. To make a long story really short, Joeseph brings his family down to Egypt after he is made second only to the Pharoah. They live there for a very long time. After a while, Egypt no longer considers the Jews friends, but slaves and then we move on to the happenings in Exodus.

So, what we end up with is that there are now squatters in the land that was given to the Israelites. Since the people were not going to move out peacably and there was no room in God's commands for marrying outside of the tribes of Israel, they had no choice but to remove them with force.

So little evidence? What about the disproportionate controversy which even kings and centuries have not been able to eradicate?

Evidence is merely a token that the mind has painted itself into a corner.

Truth on the other hand, needs no upbringing.

��

[edit on 2-1-2005 by sozzledboot]

[edit on 2-1-2005 by sozzledboot]

We do accept this, yet we still strive to understand the universe, and not say Goddidit everytime something isnt understood.

In those forces that are beyond your understanding and comprehension. In that unobservable universe. Is the logical possibility of a supreme intelligence.

Im not sure. Im also not sure if the universe has a first cause, or why a first cause would HAVE to be "truth, love, absolute, perfection, harmony" etc. In other words, what you feel to be "God".

Hence, here is your first scientific logical violation: an uncaused universe. That is the truth that we are telling you "I am" and "There is" There is order and perfection. There is consciousness - "knowing that I am"

The logic of the first cause being God. Is that uncaused perfection, order and consciousness cannot arise from chaos, disorder and no-consciousness in the same way an apple tree cannot give oranges..

The logical truth is that "I am" and I am a part of the universe and the universe is a part of me. I am the universe. The universe is conscious. What emerges from a source will return to the same source.

Isn't it very arrogant, ignorant, bigoted and egocentric of you to think that consciousness is a phenomena that only applies to you? How do you know that mother Earth is not conscious?

I never said Jesus' way and truth was from the OT, I said that he represents the God from the OT. What passages are you looking for? The passages where God commanded the israelites to commit genocide?

I am looking for the passage from Jesus's gospel that ties him to the God of the OT. Surely, you should know these passages, otherwise how could you know Jesus represents the OT God.

[edit on 2-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child

I am looking for the passage from Jesus's gospel that ties him to the God of the OT. Surely, you should know these passages, otherwise how could you know Jesus represents the OT God.

I don't want to repeat the whole list here, but on page two there's a whole list of arguments Jesus had AGAINST the OT concept of Law--Laws which Israel had attributed to God the Father.

He refuted many elements of the Law with respect to "straining at gnats and swallowing camels." He did NOT perpetuate the parts of the law that called for ethnic cleansing and stoning for sins.

Good Effects--Justice and Fairness--were more important to Him than the "due process of Sanhedrin legalism" itself.

And He was willing to disturb the Peace, in order to make some changes to the practice of "what was lawful."

Matt 10:34 -- "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to t6he earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's foes will be members of one's own household."

Christians who swallow the Law whole are making the same "errors" that Jesus rebuked in the Israelite Jews of his day.

Let's be clear about that.

Originally posted by defrag99
Secondly, Jesus had some problems with the way the previous Covenant had been man-handled:

Mark 2:5-12 Jesus rebels by forgiving sins on his own.

Jesus was being rebellious in the sense that it went against what the Jews believed at the time, not against the spirit of the Word of God. Jesus was trying to make a couple of points � One, he was God. If only God can forgive sins, then if he is forgiving sins, he is God. Two, they were so concerned with the rituals and the appearance of following the Law, they lost sight of God and the reasons for the Law in the first place. Jesus was trying to bring them back around to what was real.

Originally posted by defrag99
Mark 2:15-16 Jesus rebels by eating with sinners

Again, Jesus was trying to impress on the people that they don�t have it right. God didn�t want people to be shunned because they are sinners. We are all sinners. There is no difference between us and them.

Originally posted by defrag99
Mark 2:18-20 Jesus rebels by not fasting on fasting days.

There were very few days that the Jews were [I]required[/I] to fast. Most of those who were fasting were doing so in an attempt to show others how pious they were. Because fasting was specifically for coming closer with God, Jesus was telling them that there was no need to be fasting while he was there, but they can resume after he is gone.

Originally posted by defrag99
Mark 2:23-28 Jesus rebels by breaking the sabbath.
Mark 3:1-6 Jesus rebels by healing on the sabbath.

These are all the same as above.

Originally posted by defrag99
Mark 3:11 Jesus' divinity is acknowledged by a demon.

All of those who were cast down will recognize God and his power over them.

Originally posted by defrag99
Mark 3:12 Jesus demands that his practices be hidden.
Mark 3:20-21 Jesus is considered insane by his relatives.
Mark 3:22-30 Jesus condemns those who condemn his exorcism.

This is simply wrong � he condemned no one. He simply corrected them. They said that he was casting out demons in the name of satan. He replied that it was impossible to do that.

Originally posted by defrag99
Mark 3:31-35 Jesus spurns his natal family.
Mark 4:2-9 Jesus a mystic of parables, not a rabbi.

�Rabbi� means teacher. Verse 1 states that he began to teach them�

Originally posted by defrag99
Mark 4:10-34 Jesus tells secrets to close disciples only.
Mark 5:5-8 Jesus' divinity acknowledged by a madman.

Not a madman, demon possessed. See above.


I wanted to go through every one, but the response would be very long and I can see that 99% of these are misunderstood or taken out of context or both. I would be happy to explain them to you in detail if you want to hear it.

Jesus had no problem with the covenant with Israel. He was a part of the covenant. What he had a problem with was misinterpretation of the Law. When He told us to keep the Sabbath day holy, he did not mean that we were to forsake others in need if they happened to be in need on the Sabbath. The Jews took the letter of the law too far and then paraded themselves in front of others as the most holy people. They had so much to do just to keep up their appearance of being holy, that they walked away from God. Jesus was simply trying to bring them back to God.

Originally posted by defrag99
Now, please tell me:

How did Jesus SUBSTANTIATE the excesses of Jewish killing that Moses (an Egyptian raised in the Pharoah's court) wrote down and the nation of Israel slavishly followed?

Moses was not an Egyptian, but he was raised in Pharoah�s court. The only thing that did for him was that he was not killed outright when he demanded that the Israelites be let go. Moses commanded no killing. Moses did not enter the promised land. Joshua did enter. He also went to war with the people there. He did it because God told him to do it. Why did God tell him to do it? Because this was the land given to the Israelites back in Genesis 12. The people living there now were not just going to walk away from a place that they could have been living for generations. That meant they were going to have to be forced out for the Israelites to live there. Also, if they were forced out, but not utterly destroyed, then they would come back and fight again once they had recuperated from the last defeat. Israel would be in a constant state of battle.

Originally posted by defrag99
Just tell me this.

Further, since Paul in Hebrews says Christ died once for all time so that sinners need never die again for their sins--why is so-called Christianity still opting for the death penalty, whenever Fundies can keep it in place?

Where is mercy?

Just tell me.

Are you really suggesting that those who believe in Christ and his sacrifice will never die? If not, what are saying here? The Apostle Paul is speaking of a spiritual death. He is basically saying that since Christ died for our sins, we will not need to spend an eternity in hell paying the price for that sin.

Mercy? God has mercy for you. It is in his outstretched hand, right now. He desires that none should perish, but they have to step forward and accept the gift. For those who don�t, they have chosen their path and the consequences.

Your studies in the Bible are a good start. I encourage you to keep going until you find the truth. It is there. I will help you if you like.

Originally posted by Jerrbert

Jesus was being rebellious in the sense that it went against what the Jews believed at the time, not against the spirit of the Word of God. Jesus was trying to make a couple of points ? One, he was God. If only God can forgive sins, then if he is forgiving sins, he is God. Two, they were so concerned with the rituals and the appearance of following the Law, they lost sight of God and the reasons for the Law in the first place. Jesus was trying to bring them back around to what was real.

Jesus didnt claim he was God he always said that he was teaching the word of his father God, he never claims to be God , but was thought to be Lord, and King of Kings which has a differnt distinction.

?Rabbi? means teacher. Verse 1 states that he began to teach them?

Very true Rabbi is the teacher of the word, Rabbi also can be used under the elder perceptions where in a more knowledgable older person is the reference, while yes physically on earth he was only about in his low to mid 30's when he died his age transended his physical existance as he was before he was here on earth.

Originally posted by defrag99
Just tell me this.

Further, since Paul in Hebrews says Christ died once for all time so that sinners need never die again for their sins--why is so-called Christianity still opting for the death penalty, whenever Fundies can keep it in place?

Where is mercy?

Just tell me.

This was covered in the phrase give unto Caesar that which is Caesars, loosy interpreted by most as only pertaining to money that was not the case, it incompassed society laws should be followed as well, but should be over ridden by God's laws , God made it possible for kings,pharoes to come into power to give a leadership role but did not say that they had to comply with his requests in the making of society laws, he said they could make laws but Christians and or Jews must first follow his law in their personal lives.

And in the case of death the death of the body is in design but spiritual death is not the reference to the second death is that you are stricken from the book of life and cast away from the presence of the Lord and God and that you shall not dwell in heaven the spirit will not be as told to us brought to an end sinner or not the soul or non earthly life is not terminated even lucifer shall be alive and cast into hell for ever after the war, he is not destroyed but defeated.