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Early silence and doubts about Jesus

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posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 05:25 AM
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First off: Try to actualy read the links you post, seriously; "Independent Confirmation and the Historicity of Jesus" has nothing to do with proving the existence of Jesus, and if anything, is nothing more than semantics.
The second site you recomended in proving the existence of ' Jesus Christ '
is servicing the word of Gospels and other Christian scriptures, not only that, it even uses Testimonium Flavianum, and if we are familiar with this work one woud know that the mention of Christ is a later edit and not something from the hand of Josephus. Tacitus, on the other hand, also seems to believe in the existence of a many other Pagan figures as historical, not too savvy. In fact, Mr. Amadeus had onces obliged members of ATS a nice diatribe on these so-called historical mentions of Christ. I'm sure ATS search should suffice in regards to Mr/Mrs Amadeus' posts.



And despite all the claims, assertions, the proofs, and evidences....

Isn't it mighty ironic how so many have tried to disprove and discredit this figure, Jesus, the Christ, and yet, this mysterious 'entity', this fictitious 'being', this 'non-individual' has soooooo influenced much of this world, from past to current society?


That's irrelevent and in no way ironic; as to how you contrived otherwise, is beyond me. Horus, the Egyptian diety that we should all be aware of by now, is more than likely the thematic figure of ' Jesus Christ '. His entire story is identical to that of Jesus Christ, not only that, much of the themes presents in the synoptic gospels seem startingly perfunctory with those of Egyptian religion, correct? As it were, this figure of HORUS had an intrinsic value to the Egyptians, and yet, was never regarded as a historical figure; HORUS was always sought as an allegorical persona, not one who had walked amongst wo/men. This can be elaborated amongst many other figures prevelent in many of the worlds major religions: KRISHNA [KRIST - CHRISTO; the words KRST have been found on many Egyptian tombs, aswell] has influenced an entire nation of peoples for thousands of years, yet, has never existed as a historical figure -- I'm not sure how you denoted 'influence' to 'historocity', nor do I see any relevent logic behind this.




Don't believe me, check any decent research library or a decent university library, but of course, you already know this, right? Side note: Btw, the Qu-ran (Koran) mentions Jesus as 'real' individual/entity. You missed listing that...along with Josephus, etc., etc.


My Univeristy has a entire floor in regards to theology; I'm not sure what your point is. There is not way I, or anyone else, could go through over 10,000 plus books in a year or two to surmise some relevent evidence on the existence of a man named ' Jesus Christ', can you?

As for the Qu'ran, once again, this is every more irrelevent, being that the Qu'ran is not a historical book; it's written as a uniting article for the peoples of the Arab Peninsula whom were constantly harrased for not having a Prophet and Godly inspired article of faith; Muhhamed had used the Qu-ran to galvanize the Arab Peninsula into one en masse and thwart the every growing greed of capititalism and individualism which had far superseded collectivism and fundamental altruism towards ones own clan. It's mention to Christ is hundreds of years after the so-called crucification of Christ -- it's as relevent as me typing this.

Remember, a 5th century Pope had once exulted, what profit hath not this FABLE not brought us.

Deep.




posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 09:06 AM
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I would have thought, the subjective lessons that fables teach are more important than the objective criteria by which the Author's writing style is evaluated.

I don't have the expectation that God commands or requires or utilizes objective data the same way humans do. But maybe He does.

I give Him a little more "slack." Why? Because I see the value of the Lessons, over the value of "proof." The Lessons are proof enough to me, because they produce the kind of outcomes that I define as "Good."

Outcomes, to me are more important than Process.



[edit on 31-12-2004 by defrag99]



posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 09:25 AM
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Well, do you want to talk about the sources that DO mention him and then opponents use the tactic that the reference to Christ was "added in later"?

That's a nifty trick for dismissing references.

Try Josephus - lived at the same time as Christ. He references him...but then critics want to say - No he didn't....somebody added that... yeah, okay.

In these issues, I ultimately end up at WHATEVER and walking away, because people get so selective in what they will admit as "evidence", and that selectivity is usually biased according to which side they've married themselves to.



posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 10:13 AM
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Is it true that the only eyewitness of Jesus's alleged ressurection was Mary Magdeline that later recounted the tale to a very jealous Peter (I think it was).

I know her letters/books were burned by the Catholic Church, not included in the bible and she was wrongfully demonized as a prostitute for nearly 1500 years in some pretty nefarious efforts by the church to subjagate her role (and the role of women in the church).

But is it true?

Christianity is based on the word of a women who's own "word" Christianity dismissed and tried to eradicate?

PS - She and Jesus were sooooooo doing it.

[edit on 31-12-2004 by RANT]



posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 10:33 AM
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Hearing the "still small voice of God" is more than reading a bunch of information (including inconsistencies and secondary agendas) out of an old Book.

"For all who are led by God's spirit, these are God's sons ... you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: "Abba, Father!" The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God's children."

Romans 8:14-16

For some of us, the Bible may be a set of fables inspired by Cosmic Entity, but it leads us to have a telepathic relationship with an ET by the name of "YHWH."

The Book is just a series of cues--never has to be an objective reality in and of itself at all. How would you expect a Cosmic Entity to speak to humans and their experiences, except as "stories" ??

It's the relationship--not the content--that matters and counts to me.

The whole argument about objective data is so irrelevant (to me). You know what I mean?



posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 10:46 AM
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Well, considering there are a dozen paintings from different painters from the 13 and 14th century depicting Jesus with UFO's in an age of the fundamentalist Christian Church. It must mean there is a connection of Jesus to the UFO phenomena.

Alec Effiel, you say it is discrediting to have a blind a faith in Jesus or god. However, you have a blind faith in evolution, a conscious human being arising from stellar dust. So, should I "discredit" you?

I see no ills in believing Jesus existed. What ill is there in believing a man existed that preached messages of love and peace and healed people? I find Jesus's messages, irrespective of whether he is fictional, to be empowering.

[edit on 31-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by RANT


PS - She and Jesus were sooooooo doing it.

[edit on 31-12-2004 by RANT]


OH MY GAWD!

You are soooooooooo going to hell...

lol



posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Well, considering there are a dozen paintings from different painters from the 13 and 14th century depicting Jesus with UFO's in an age of the fundamentalist Christian Church. It must mean there is a connection of Jesus to the UFO phenomena.

Alec Effiel, you say it is discrediting to have a blind a faith in Jesus or god. However, you have a blind faith in evolution, a conscious human being arising from stellar dust. So, should I "discredit" you?

I see no ills in believing Jesus existed. What ill is there in believing a man existed that preached messages of love and peace and healed people? I find Jesus's messages, irrespective of whether he is fictional, to be empowering.

[edit on 31-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]


Im still trying to figure out how I have blind faith in evolution. Blind? I study it. Faith? Faith isnt required, there is logical evidence. Your comment about us arising from stellar dust just shows your ignorance of the matter.

There is a difference in believing God or Jesus and blindly accepting it. Funny also, how everyone remembers the feel-good messages of Jesus, and forgets what he actually represents, a God who commands nations to completely wipe out groups of women and children on his whim who he will send to hell anyways.



posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 01:25 PM
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Im still trying to figure out how I have blind faith in evolution. Blind? I study it. Faith? Faith isnt required, there is logical evidence. Your comment about us arising from stellar dust just shows your ignorance of the matter.


So your belief is logic and our belief is illogic? That is also called dogma. You practice what you say you oppose.


There is a difference in believing God or Jesus and blindly accepting it. Funny also, how everyone remembers the feel-good messages of Jesus, and forgets what he actually represents, a God who commands nations to completely wipe out groups of women and children on his whim who he will send to hell anyways.


What does he represent? Do you have anything incriminating on Jesus?

[edit on 31-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 02:24 PM
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It always surprises me when someone is surprised by illogical arguments.

We ought to expect that by now.

I mean, "placing limitations on imagination" is a veritable growth industry.



posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 04:12 PM
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So your belief is logic and our belief is illogic? That is also called dogma. You practice what you say you oppose.
I never said that. I said some people have illogic reasons for believing in certain things.



What does he represent? Do you have anything incriminating on Jesus?


He represents God, which is also the God of the old testament, the one who commanded the israelites to perform genocide, sparing not even women and children. Just read the old testament, it shouldnt take too long before you find some repungent acts. Oh, and Jesus killed two pigs.



posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 04:27 PM
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Where does it say, Jesus killed two pigs? It's not in my concordance.

Secondly, Jesus had some problems with the way the previous Covenant had been man-handled:

Mark 2:5-12 Jesus rebels by forgiving sins on his own.
Mark 2:15-16 Jesus rebels by eating with sinners
Mark 2:18-20 Jesus rebels by not fasting on fasting days.
Mark 2:23-28 Jesus rebels by breaking the sabbath.
Mark 3:1-6 Jesus rebels by healing on the sabbath.
Mark 3:11 Jesus' divinity is acknowledged by a demon.
Mark 3:12 Jesus demands that his practices be hidden.
Mark 3:20-21 Jesus is considered insane by his relatives.
Mark 3:22-30 Jesus condemns those who condemn his exorcism.
Mark 3:31-35 Jesus spurns his natal family.
Mark 4:2-9 Jesus a mystic of parables, not a rabbi.
Mark 4:10-34 Jesus tells secrets to close disciples only.
Mark 5:5-8 Jesus' divinity acknowledged by a madman.
Mark 6:2-8 Jesus, son of Mary, offends the synagogue.
Mark 7:10-13 Jesus revises the Law of Moses
Mark 7:14-23 Jesus rebels against Moses' dietary Laws.
Mark 7:25-30 Jesus rebels by healing non-Jews.
Mark 8:27-30 Jesus demands his divinity be kept secret.
Mark 9:38-40 Jesus shows kinship with all itinerant exorcists.
Mark 10:2-8 Jesus rebels against traditional Jewish divorce.
Mark 11:15-18 Jesus rebels against the Temple authorities
Mark 11:27-33 Jesus rebels against the Elders.
Mark 12:13-17 Jesus stands up for Caesar and his taxes
Mark 13:1-2 Jesus spurns the Temple at Jerusalem
Mark 14:22-26 Jesus rejects Passover and institutes his own rite.
Mark 14:50-52 Jesus involved with midnight baptisms
Mark 14:53-64 Jesus is condemned for saying he is divine.
Mark 15:15 Jesus is hung on a tree, evoking a Jewish curse.
Mark 16:17-20 Jesus commands miracles (essentially, magic) for all his followers for all time in the future.

Now, please tell me:

How did Jesus SUBSTANTIATE the excesses of Jewish killing that Moses (an Egyptian raised in the Pharoah's court) wrote down and the nation of Israel slavishly followed?

Just tell me this.

Further, since Paul in Hebrews says Christ died once for all time so that sinners need never die again for their sins--why is so-called Christianity still opting for the death penalty, whenever Fundies can keep it in place?

Where is mercy?

Just tell me.



posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 05:11 PM
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Jesus cast demons out of a man, had the demons go into two pigs, and had the pigs run off a cliff.

Jesus also represented a God that commanded genocide. How did he substantiate it? Jesus and God are one, what you are asking me is a nonsensical question. They arent two complete seperate entities.



posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 05:37 PM
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There are all kinds of ways to establish famial unity.

My five kids and I don't agree about the time of day; yet we are family.

So, I don't get your point. Are you criticizing Jesus, His Father Yahweh, or the whole concept of a Cosmic Covenant between ETs and humans?

Jesus rebuked the way His Father's Law was being practiced; and it cost Him His Life.

What further repudiation would you like to see--of the lack of Mercy that Israel had adopted at that point, and has still kept into practice until this very day?

Well, what goes around, comes around.

Frankly, all I'm getting out of your argumentation is that you are one angry guy. You say God "commanded." How do you know? Just because someone wrote that down?

"Well, the moon is made out of green cheese."

Does this statement make it so??

Where is Mercy? Where is the Love of God? FYI, it's not in the Old Law Covenant, is it?

No. It's not. Even if it says it is. Even if it was written down that way.

"Actions speak louder than words." "Talk is cheap." is what is REAL.

God dealt with reality when He programmed Creation and our DNA.

These run and hold TRUE. Words are merely maps of mentations.

Words can never, by definition, be TRUE to Reality--least of all, history.



[edit on 31-12-2004 by defrag99]



posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 05:54 PM
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My five kids and I don't agree about the time of day; yet we are family.
True, but you are all seperate entities, it would naturally make sense that you dont all agree with everything.


So, I don't get your point. Are you criticizing Jesus, His Father Yahweh,
They are the same thing.


Jesus rebuked the way His Father's Law was being practiced; and it cost Him His Life.
Not really. Jesus says he came to fufill the law, not to destroy it.


You say God "commanded." How do you know? Just because someone wrote that down?

"Well, the moon is made out of green cheese."

Does this statement make it so??
Makes me wonder then, why you believe in the Bible at all.


Where is Mercy? Where is the Love of God? FYI, it's not in the Old Law Covenant, is it?
Not in my opinion, but I dont see the love of God love through Jesus either.


No. It's not. Even if it says it is. Even if it was written down that way.
More wishful thinking as to what the nature of an ill-defined deity REALLY is.


"Actions speak louder than words." "Talk is cheap." is what is REAL.
True, the slaughter of women and children commanded by God speak more volumes than words ever could.

Yeah, im one furious guy.


[edit on 31-12-2004 by Alec Eiffel]



posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 07:32 PM
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The moment people stop believing in god, and start beliecing in the IDEA of god the world will be a better place. Believing in the idea of god retains all the ideals of peace and love, but eliminates extremist behaviour due to one person believing their god is the only true god. If it turns out jesus never existed, we're still sweet, because the ideas are still valid. If it turns out budhha is actually the true god (even though he said something along the lines of "do not worship me as a god because i am only one man"), then it's still all cool, because the ideas of god (peace, love, cooperation etc) are still there and still valid.



posted on Dec, 31 2004 @ 07:42 PM
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Not a bad idea, Lord Goofus, so long as your idea of God is actually your inner perception of Him and not merely somebody else's idea put forth to control your behavior to benefit HIM.

Remember, the story says God gave us Free will and Dominion.

That means, we don't have to do what other people want us, prefer us doing; we must do what we feel is right, inside.

Remember this, and God is not afar off from anyone.

We are responsible for effects we create in time; that is the Lesson that cause-and-effect teaches.

Whatever ideas or beliefs get a person to that realization is what will work for peace with justice.

May the new year find us all in peace with justice for all human beings.



BTW, who ever told you YHVH and Yeshua are the same person? Not true.
See Psalm 83:18 in any translation. YHVH is the Father and Yeshua is the Son, in their language.

[edit on 31-12-2004 by defrag99]



posted on Jan, 1 2005 @ 02:30 AM
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I never said that. I said some people have illogic reasons for believing in certain things.


How is that different from saying their beliefs are illogical?


He represents God


Which God does he represent?



posted on Jan, 1 2005 @ 02:40 AM
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How is that different from saying their beliefs are illogical?


It isnt. But I never said everyones reasons were illogical, only that some have illogical reasons for believing. Would you agree that "I believe because my pastor tells me so" is illogical?




Which God does he represent?


The God of the Old Testament.



posted on Jan, 1 2005 @ 02:49 AM
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It isnt. But I never said everyones reasons were illogical, only that some have illogical reasons for believing. Would you agree that "I believe because my pastor tells me so" is illogical?


What is a logical reason to believe in God?


The God of the Old Testament.


Did Jesus not say he is the way and he is the truth? How could he be the way and the truth, if his way and the truth was from the Old Tesament?

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]



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