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FOX News: Transgender girl drops class after 200 protest for and against her.

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posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 11:38 AM
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I think its inappropriate to link transgender people with gay people. Being gay is something that is quite normal many species engage in this behavior and there are many benefits socially and biologically to having gay subset of a species.
Transgenderism is something else entirely. While it might be psychological, with its ever increasing numbers its probably chromosomal in nature akin to the rise in other genetic disorders orders. Sexual dimorphism isn't something that regularly occurs in nature and its not something that's just in someone's head its biological.

That being said its something that needs more study. People shouldn't be persecuted for being transgendered any more than someone should be for being autistic, born without a limb, being a little person or having an allergy. Accommodations should be maid and we need to determine ways to detect the issue so it can be corrected at as early an age as possible.

Still, forcing people into uncomfortable situations is assanine, no matter what anyone wants to believe about being "evolved" you never evolve past your biological make up. We are a bunch of apes bound by our genetic predispositions with fight or flight responses baked into our. No one is above their biology and all the hope love and hatred buried in our brains are still manifestations of chemical reactions.




posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 11:52 AM
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originally posted by: WhiteHat
a reply to: JadeStar

You keep explaining me a scientific process while I asked for how this process translate in a person's mind. I'm sure when you first felt and told others you are a girl you didn't knew all this scientific facts. What did you knew, and how?


Hi again


Sorry, it took me a while to catch up in responding to your long post.

The reason why it took me awhile to get to the way the brain difference manifested itself in my early life is because I was criticized for mentioning my personal experience earlier so I thought I would just stick to the science.

I do hope the last reply to the long post was personal enough. Another thing is I grow weary retelling a lot of that because that time in my life from birth until age 7 was a very dark period of time for me and a very stressed out family situation, thus emotionally draining to retell.

And since I and my parents detailed it all here in this thread I usually just refer people there.

I do hope my responses to your question have been complete. I will admit I was not quite sure where you were coming from at first so was more defensive than I probably should have been.

I want to reiterate that I greatly appreciate the very good questions you asked in an effort to understand the day-to-day life behind the science for someone born different.

I am so much happier now.




As for "scientific" that I use sometimes is a delicate allusion of the scientists who declare that pizza is a vegetable, that aspartame is safe for consumption and the ridiculous rise of obesity is genetic. Also that everything that make them money is safe and healthy.
There you go, a short post



That's not science. It's very poor reporting on science by a media that barely understands the process of scientific research.
edit on 4-9-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 12:12 PM
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originally posted by: dragonridr
Well your misinterpreting science a bit. Yes there are differences but nothing outside the norm for either gender. The differences your discussing is like the fiberous tissue called forceps minor. Males it tends to be thicker then females. But this rule doesn't pertain to all males. There are deviances in all things nature doesn't like strict rules

Now to say a transgender thinks like a woman you have to be able to define how a woman thinks. Not joking here even though it sounds like it. But individuals process information based off experience. The only effect the brain truly has on gender is hormone production. Now here is the problem what's the norm? There are females that produce large amounts of testosterone yet still like males. And of course males that produce a lot of estrogen yet still like females. Where is the tipping point? This much estrogen and your a female we don't know.

The other problem most people ignore First, sex-reassignment surgery involves treatment with cross-sex hormones that alter the brain. One I don't think this should ever be done until after the age of 18 in females and 20 in males. Then and only then are the changes in your body complete. The other problem is not all transgendered people are attracted to the the same sex a guy might want to be a woman but still attracted by them. To say science proves anything yet is wrong we just don't know.

As far as medical it's a huge unknown, for example " Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" recategorized transsexuals as suffering not from "gender identity disorder" (as it previously did) but from "gender dysphoria." In short, the mental disorder lies not in believing that you're a different gender but in the suffering caused by that belief.

So in truth we can't say transgendered are in any way outside the norm. And we can't say these differences are large enough to say they are males or females brains. All we can do is go off the individuals beliefs. And I don't think children should ever go through gender reasignment that is an adult decision with life alt wrong consequences


Did you read all of the research I linked to, everything you've brought up has been addressed. I feel as though I am talking to a brick wall when and repeating my self when people bring up the same points which the research has addressed and which they would know had they read it.

So here, if you haven't already read links below:

Science has known for as long as I have been alive that what a transgender person thinks in their head is determined by physical differences in structures in their brain which are completely normal for the gender they say they are but not for the body that brain inhabits.

The first study to conclude this was back in 1995, the year I was born. SEE: Study Links Brain to Transsexuality - New York Times, Nov, 1995.

Excerpt:


The discovery is the first detection of a difference in transsexual brains and could at least partly explain why such individuals describe themselves as "women trapped in men's bodies."

The finding may also cast light on the larger issue of sexual identity, of what makes a person feel comfortable -- or tormented -- in the skin of a man or a woman.

Significantly, the region of the hypothalamus does not differ in size between gay and straight men, and so it cannot be said to play a role in male sexual orientation. Other recent studies have focused on identifying minor brain discrepancies between homosexual and heterosexual men, in general reporting that gay brains appeared comparatively feminine. Such findings, which remain deeply contested, have troubled many people for the simple reason that gay men overwhelmingly think of themselves as men, not as abnormal women. But genetic men who undergo sex reassignment often claim that they felt like girls from early childhood on.


More recent studies confirmed the initial work…


In the 1990s, scientists began to compare these sexually dimorphic regions in the brains of transsexuals and the rest of humanity. Early work in this area required the examination of brains postmortem; recent studies use images of the living brain.

The results show that when individuals of Sex A—despite having the chromosomes, gonads and sex hormones of that sex—insist that they're really Sex B, the gender-affected parts of the brain typically more closely resemble what's usually seen with Sex B.

Consider an obscure brain region called the forceps minor (part of the corpus callosum, a mass of fibers that connect the brain's two hemispheres). On average, among nontranssexuals, the forceps minor of males contains parallel nerve fibers of higher density than in females. But the density in female-to-male transsexuals is equivalent to that in typical males.
- Wall Street Journal - Dec 6, 2013


The people who determine what is a "mental disorder" have concluded it is not a mental disorder just a physical difference in our brain which we are born with. It is in the DSM so insurance covers treatment.

From The American Psychiatric Association:


Access to medical care (both medical and surgical) positively impacts the mental health of transgender and gender variant individuals.

Being transgender or gender variant implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities; however, these individuals often experience discrimination due to a lack of civil rights protections for their gender identity or expression. Transgender and gender variant persons are frequently harassed and discriminated against when seeking housing or applying for jobs or schools, are often victims of violent hate crimes, and face challenges in marriage, adoption, and parenting rights.

Discrimination and lack of equal civil rights is damaging to the mental health of transgender and gender variant individuals. For example, gender-based discrimination and victimization were found to be independently associated with attempted suicide in a population of transgender individuals, 32% of whom had histories of trying to kill themselves, and in the largest survey to date of gender variant and transgender people 41% reported attempting suicide.

The APA joins other organizations, including the American Medical Association and the American Psychological Association, in endorsing strong policy statements deploring the discrimination experienced by gender variant and transgender individuals and calling for laws to protect their civil rights.
– The American Psychiatric Association, 8/16/12, Release No. 12-36

My brain's hypothalamus has a female neuron-count and structure. Its been that way since before birth.

For more information see: Transgender kids show consistent gender identity across measures - Psychological Science - The Journal of the Association for Psychological Science.

Excerpt:

A study with 32 transgender children, ages 5 to 12, indicates that the gender identity of these children is deeply held and is not the result of confusion about gender identity or pretense. The study, led by psychological scientist Kristina Olson of the University of Washington, is one of the



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 12:19 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar

I do understand a lot more now than at the start of this thread, although not without difficulty, as I explained to EKron.
There will always be missing parts and some things I'm not yet convinced about, as for the whole kids transition part, but that is a matter of personal opinion, not a fundamental disagreement.
I'm always glad when we, people, can understand each other by civilized meanings.
Have a great day



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 12:22 PM
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originally posted by: nemonimity
I think its inappropriate to link transgender people with gay people. Being gay is something that is quite normal many species engage in this behavior and there are many benefits socially and biologically to having gay subset of a species.


You are correct in that sexual orientation and gender identity are separate issues however you are unaware that there a many species which change their gender identity at one point or another during their lives

So in some respects transgender also exists in the animal kingdom in some form. It's just rarer just as it is rarer than homosexuality in humans (1-in-300 as opposed to 1-in-10).



That being said its something that needs more study. People shouldn't be persecuted for being transgendered any more than someone should be for being autistic, born without a limb, being a little person or having an allergy. Accommodations should be maid and we need to determine ways to detect the issue so it can be corrected at as early an age as possible.


And that's what is going on and why I and others who were transgender children got all of this sorted out before reaching adulthood.

Yet some people continue to insist that's a bad thing despite plenty of medicine and anecdotal evidence to the contrary...but I digress….



Still, forcing people into uncomfortable situations is assanine, no matter what anyone wants to believe about being "evolved" you never evolve past your biological make up. We are a bunch of apes bound by our genetic predispositions with fight or flight responses baked into our. No one is above their biology and all the hope love and hatred buried in our brains are still manifestations of chemical reactions.


Again… people were once uncomfortable swimming with people with different skin color and hair texture than their own. That didn't mean they were right and history shows they they were very unenlightened people clinging to irrational fears and bigotry.

It amazes me that people somehow don't recognize that is what often happens to people who are misunderstood and that reaction continues today just directed at different people.

Example: Almost no one today would say gay people have mental disorders and can be cured through aversion therapy or became game due to parental influence or other "environmental factors" but its perfectly ok for people to suggest it for transgender people despite science already saying "that's not how it works." and the layperson mostly unaware of
edit on 4-9-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 12:30 PM
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originally posted by: WhiteHat
a reply to: JadeStar

I do understand a lot more now than at the start of this thread, although not without difficulty, as I explained to EKron.
There will always be missing parts and some things I'm not yet convinced about, as for the whole kids transition part, but that is a matter of personal opinion, not a fundamental disagreement.


Thank you I'm glad we could help you learn more and gain better insight into what goes on in our heads. Feel free to send a U2U Ekron or I and we'll be happy to discuss it further privately if you like?



I'm always glad when we, people, can understand each other by civilized meanings.
Have a great day


This **** x1000 so much.


edit on 4-9-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 12:39 PM
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originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: JadeStar

The best way to tell is to talk with their family, their close friends, interview people who have known them intimately in some way and look at their history.



I mentioned a while back that there has been no mention of Lila's parents. None at all that I can find.

As you say, this story lacks information. It lacks a LOT of information.



On one hand I see this as a big red flag.

Then I take my rush to judgment hat off and try to put myself in her parents place. I know that my parents would not have wanted the public attention because of my difference.

However I also would never have worn a skirt or anything else without tucking, even around the house at home much less in public so idk….

I support her in principle but I do not support how she's gone about this at all but I could say the same about the girls who protested against her, the school administration which apparently did little to develop a clear policy and educate with clear, accurate, current information regarding transgender student accommodations and the sensation heavy, information weak media treatment of the story.
edit on 4-9-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 12:44 PM
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The school provided facilities for her to use in private, at great expense.

She chose to reject them, and instead wants to use the female rest rooms and changing facilities.

Bottom line, transgender or not, if you have a penis, you don't belong in a high school girl's locker room.



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 12:48 PM
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originally posted by: WhiteHat

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: poncho1982



that's my point children should NOT be allowed to make such a choice


Like how gay children shouldn't be allowed to make such a choice. Like way too many LGBT teenagers been too depressed and some killed themselves?


Gay children is something else. There is a different sexual orientation; you either like something or you don't.
More like when everybody likes apples and once in a while someone likes oranges - straights and homosexuals.
The trans kid would be the one who thinks that apples are oranges and viceversa.

edit: please just don't get offended anyone, it is a simplification for the sake of giving an example.


Not offended but it really is a bad analogy. Transgender people don't think women are men and men are women.

The fact is both homosexuality and transgenderism are something people are born with. They may have very different causes but they are pretty resilient to every form of aversion therapy and "re-education".

Gender identity people know usually before kindergarten. It's who you, I or anyone else is.
Sexual orientation often doesn't become clear until after puberty. Its who one is attracted to or sexually desires.

A very key difference IMHO.
edit on 4-9-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 12:53 PM
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originally posted by: babybunnies
The school provided facilities for her to use in private, at great expense.

She chose to reject them, and instead wants to use the female rest rooms and changing facilities.

Bottom line, transgender or not, if you have a penis, you don't belong in a high school girl's locker room.


And most Psychologists and/or Psychiatrists who evaluate and work with trans kids usually recommend that such accommodation should not exclude them in a way which may harm their social development as the gender they are living as.

My psychologist specifically cautioned my school against that compromise for that reason.

That's also been the decision of the court on the same grounds: Transgender first-grader wins the right to use girls' restroom - CNN - June 2013

Really I think the best solution (given what I've seen of Lila and the scant information on her) would have been to make a private area for Lila which did not remove her from the other girls until those girls were comfortable enough with her that it was no longer necessary.

But again, we know so little about Lila or her psychological state, maturity level, history of gender expression. All things we should know if she were under psychological evaluation and supervised medical care.
edit on 4-9-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 12:57 PM
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originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
I think I speak for everyone when I say input from transgender members is appreciated and uniquely enlightening.


Thank you for taking the time to listen, Gordon. It is much easier to communicate when not being browbeaten.


That being said...
JadeStar and Ekron, you must realize your testimonials are bound to contain biases and cannot be considered empirical evidence of anything. Any competent psychologist would scoff at the suggestion that the transgender experience can be understood through one person's account.


Well, here you've had at least two that have basically said the same thing. Psychologists and researchers have accumulated data and statistics for well over fifty years from the tens of thousands of personal accounts. Subjective, biased stories? Maybe but cumulatively, they paint a pretty clear and conclusive picture.

Honestly, the "transgender experience" can only truly be understood by those that have lived it. Some things are on a level impossible to access verbally to even explain to someone else. When we say this is something part of our soul or whatever spark of spirit exists at the center of our being, it still fails to convey the depth and complexity of it all. I lack the language that can make another fully comprehend. Maybe a Vulcan mind meld would do it?


originally posted by: WhiteHat
I never observed any dissociation between what I feel to be and what I am, so I can never be sure what exactly make me what I am. My body and my mind were always one, always in accord. So when you say your mind is saying you are one thing but the body is another is very hard to grasp that. Is not in the regular people's spectrum of experience.


You are right, this is absolutely beyond the grasp of regular people's spectrum of experience and the dissociation of what one may feel them self to be and what they are and lack of clarity of why that might be is a fairly apt description of GD. This is why it is so threatening to some and why all kind of wacky things are thought up to try and rationalize it. If this wasn't something I lived with and went through, I'm not so sure I would believe any of it myself. Try as we might or whatever kind of scenario we may propose to try to put people in our shoes, it is mind bending and hard to get.


As I said I cannot be sure. Is not something ever happened to me or that I can verify. My belief is that I would probably listen to my body and build my identity based on that. After all the body is our fundamental material form of existence in this world.


Really? After living your whole life and having children, if you woke up one day with dangly bits you would build your identity around that? The body may be our fundamental material form of existence in this world but we don't interface that the world with our genitals. Your answer confuses me but I do appreciate the theoretical exercise.

Taking another stab at that because you tend to think about chemical processes and hormones coursing through your body, what about if you had your ovaries and uterus removed? What about menopause? There's no doubt we are a gazpacho of chemical soup that can have many influences upon us, but they do not rule our consciousness or control our behavior and actions with ultimate authority.

At any rate, these discussions are much more pleasant and productive when people aren't condemning us or somehow trying to invalidate our existence and experiences. Thank you to those that have tried to keep this thread a civil discussion and exchange of information.

Thanks also to JadeStar for her patience, poise and decorum and for starting the thread and helping to guide things along (and for being a friend).


edit on Fri Sep 4th 2015 by EKron because: (no reason given)

edit on Fri Sep 4th 2015 by EKron because: damn keyboard



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 12:58 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar

A first grader?

It almost seems it easier for a child to get a sex change than a pack of smokes these days.



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 01:03 PM
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originally posted by: Rosinitiate
a reply to: JadeStar

A first grader?

It almost seems it easier for a child to get a sex change than a pack of smokes these days.


Its not. Trust me. But there is a lot more media attention today. The same was going on when I was a kid but no one knew and there were a LOT of kids and parents on the closed forums for families going through this.

I luckily didn't have cameras shoved in my or my parents face back then because so few people knew about this stuff in general.

In a way the increased exposure of transgender issues both helps these kids, "I Am Jazz" is an great show for instance for families who are going through this, but it also means that there is more risk that a child who is trans enrolling in school may face more opposition and exposure. Neither of which can be healthy.
edit on 4-9-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 01:32 PM
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originally posted by: babybunnies
The school provided facilities for her to use in private, at great expense.



At great expense?

Something that may have been overlooked. Lila refers to the "Gender Neutral FACULTY" bathroom.



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 01:32 PM
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originally posted by: poncho1982

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: poncho1982



JadeStar said it herself. She took blockers from the age of 12.


So it was forced on her?


At 12, even if she wanted it, it's too young. Way too young.


Actually it's not. I had 12 years to contemplate all this, 6 of which were pure hell. You can not compare what trans kids go through in terms of self examination with your childhood.

For people whose body and brain match they don't really think about their gender. For us it's different.

We are often acutely aware our body is wrong. That its uncomfortable. That we aren't truly ourselves with them And It's not a phase, it's not fanciful and I was evaluated FOR YEARS before even taking t-blockers or hormones even became an option.

In short we're born into and faced with an existential crisis so we spend a lot of time thinking about ways out of it.

They may range from silly, like when I asked Santa to bring me a magic wand to make my body like my sisters (awkward for him I'm sure), to resourceful, like finding various ways of hiding our genitalia from view when naked so we don't look so different in the mirror, to sad, like praying every night to wake up as a normal girl.

We have examined ourselves and done self analysis for years before taking blockers becomes an option. And then we have even more time before deciding to develop as female or male.

Please read this: Transgender kids show consistent gender identity across measures - Psychological Science - The Journal of the Association for Psychological Science.



How much more do you know about life now, that you did 12 years ago? Now imagine a mind that has only been on this planet for 12 years making that kind of lifelong decision.


Gender identity is pretty well established by kindergarten age.



I only hope that she is one who doesn't regret it later.


I know I won't. I'm very happy in my own skin now. I love my body, I love my life, I love my boyfriend. I am actually happy now.
Most of all I love my family for supporting me and allowing me to be happy and have about as normal a life a girl like me can have.

Most of the regrets you hear from the those handful of people who are transgender women who have them often go back to things which could have been prevented from developing by doing what I did to stave off male adulthood.


She's already talked about how disappointed she is that she cannot biologically have a child. A feeling that I can 100% relate to, it infects my thoughts daily.


I am not really disappointed because I never expected that I would be able to have one. There are limits to what medical science can do right now and I knew that then. But who knows what advances may be made in the future?

I would say my emotions around the baby issue are not such that I regret all the wonderful things which occurred in my life since I began transitioning at 7 and especially after I completed surgery 10 years later.

It's just something that if I think about and reflect on in a "what if I had been born a normal girl?" way saddens me.

But you know what? Its like my sister says, that urge to want to have a child just means I'm normal emotionally. Plenty of women not born with my difference cannot have children of their own for one reason or another yet still wish they could have there own.

And there are plenty of children which need parents so adoption is a real possibility in my future. I'd say probably a certainty.

Ideally my boyfriend and I would love to adopt a transgender child, (who better to understand them and their special needs growing up than a mom who was born like them?) even an older one because they are harder to place for many reasons but we'd be open to any child in need who is harder to place.

I will say that mothers who do not appreciate the gift they are given in the ability to have children and abuse their child mentally or physically or have children to get government assistance both sadden and make me feel a little cheated.

But, I am only 20. I have more than a few years before he and I should even consider children.



If a child at 12 thinks this way, then the treatments and surgeries should be held off until adulthood.


So I'd have gotten a deep voice and beard. Um. no thanks.


If by 18 they still feel that way, then fine. but as a child...no.


Prevention of male puberty is one reason I believe I was socially accepted as a girl more than others who have gone through it, for instance Lila (if she is actually trans.)
edit on 4-9-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 01:39 PM
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originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Deaf Alien

I am not too sure about this Lila fella.


There's no real indepth information.

I looked up Hillsboro, MO. It's a town of less then 3000 (2010 census), located in the middle of the state.

I was surprised the high school has a "Gay-Straight Alliance" group.


Almost all do now.



There has been no mention of her parents. No mention of professionals. No mention of her upbringing. Was she raised in a religious home with little access to information?


That's what I was thinking would be the only way she could not have known about people being transgender. I mean she'd have to not only be in a religious household but Amish one.

I don't buy that part of her story. Again, another red flag.



We just don't know anything except the little bit in the media. Did Lila herself notify the media? Or a "concerned" citizen.

Did Lila want this media attention? Or was it forced on her?


I wish we knew.



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 01:41 PM
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originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Annee

And most of their regrets have to do with either the fact they waited until after puberty to begin treatment so that their transition is not as successful, or the harsh treatment they receive from society. Very, very few have said that they don't think they were really transgender to begin with.


^^^^ THIS



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 02:06 PM
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originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
I think I speak for everyone when I say input from transgender members is appreciated and uniquely enlightening.

That being said...
JadeStar and Ekron, you must realize your testimonials are bound to contain biases and cannot be considered empirical evidence of anything. Any competent psychologist would scoff at the suggestion that the transgender experience can be understood through one person's account.


A valid concern and one that as a scientist (ok, scientist in training) I am constantly aware of not just in this discussion but life itself.

I am constantly guarding against confirmation bias whether its reading or watching news, shopping or browsing and posting ATS. It's a discipline which if practiced regularly tends to weed out a lot of bad, incorrect or misleading information.

I also tend to prefer to refer to scientific studies in general because i'm a science nerd and read papers on ArXiv for fun sometimes.

But as a woman I am also keenly aware that people process information differently. Some people process and respond better to personal history, life experiences and relationships being outlined than they would to a clinical study.

I've gone with both in this and other threads based on the request, need or my reading of the person I am responding to.

edit on 4-9-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 02:09 PM
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a reply to: EKron




The body may be our fundamental material form of existence in this world but we don't interface that the world with our genitals. Your answer confuses me but I do appreciate the theoretical exercise.

So you see, this is the big difference in our perception, and neither one of us can really grasp the other.
My body is not my genitals only, but is defined by genitals. Every cell in my body, from inside out feels like in accord with this.
My body is my portal to the outside world and everything that gets in gets as an woman's experience.The way I move, or I talk, the way I perceive every sensory things, the way I think, everything. But it makes sense that you cannot feel that harmony with your own body if inside you feel different. And it makes sense for me to not understand how can you feel different from your own body.

If I close my eyes and imagine my self in heaven, for example, I see my self as a woman. I dream of myself as a woman. There is no aspect of my physical, mental or spiritual life that it comes in other form than a woman. It is my identity and it comes from the body I was born with; how could I be something else? Never knew nothing else but this female body.
Take this body away from me and what remains? Where or what I would be? A thought?

I agree that I am more than a woman, but my gender is at the base of everything. I'm a human. I'm a woman. I'm an artist. In that order.
Being a human and a female (or a male for that matter) needs no remainder for nobody, it's obvious. So we mostly present ourselves with our profession, our religion, our status in the world. But all these are attributes of the same very basic reality, our race, gender, skin color, in a word - our body. And so far nothing tells me about my gender except my body.
Maybe if there would be only a single gender for all we would have skipped that part; "I am human" would have been enough. But we are two genders, physically.So we identify ourselves with what differentiate us from others.

When you enter a room full of strangers you expect to be immediately identified as a woman, right? How awkward would be for somebody to in fact ask you if you are a man or a woman? So if we expect from others to identify us by our body, what is so strange to identify by that ourselves?



Taking another stab at that because you tend to think about chemical processes and hormones coursing through your body, what about if you had your ovaries and uterus removed? What about menopause? There's no doubt we are a gazpacho of chemical soup that can have many influences upon us, but they do not rule our consciousness or control our behavior and actions with ultimate authority.


Well, this is something worth pondering.
Menopause it means only the end of the reproductive function, the ability to get pregnant. The rest of the body remains more or less with the same set up. No woman thinks she becomes a man at menopause.
And neither her body. So again the mind and the body will be in harmony.

Removing some important female organs will almost sure cause a disruption in the hormonal setup, but again is not like some testicles will grow instead; she is still a woman in a woman's body, with some parts missing. And this are extreme measures that probably cause some unusual reactions. The normal setup is mind and body in agreement = identity. Any conflict there and we have a world of complications.

Like I said, is not only the genitalia that define a woman. When a trans person makes a transition, is not only vagina that it worries about, right? Is also the voice, the hair, the curves, the skin, the size of the hand, like you mentioned. The laugh. The cry. The way she's scratches her back.
All this, and much more that I cannot quite explain makes someone a woman. As opposed to a man. And all this come at birth in one big package that is working together for the rest of our life. What reason in the world could someone have to question this as long as it all works as it is supposed to?

Like I said, as long as we never experienced each other's perception is normal to not understand. But maybe you can trust me on this: for most people their body tells them what gender they are.
edit on 4-9-2015 by WhiteHat because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 4 2015 @ 02:21 PM
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originally posted by: poncho1982

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: poncho1982
At 12, even if she wanted it, it's too young. Way too young.



Hormones blockers are given pre-puberty to stop the physical changes.

This gives the child additional years to mature and make decisions.

Of course they need to be given at 12. Maybe even younger.


Then they take away the absolute life changing effect of hormones that may well change their mind. How can all options be eliminated, if that one HUGE life altering event is stopped?

As I said, I was a late bloomer. I experienced it. i KNOW what it feels like to be denied the hormones.

If they are TRULY trans, then even after puberty, they will feel the same. Before that, it's just the absence of hormones.

There are PLENTY of trans people who transitioned after puberty. Even well into adulthood.



I would ask the other transgender people of ATS who transitioned after puberty what they would have preferred.(perhaps that is worth of its own thread?) There are about a dozen who are out but I am not sure how many are transsexuals.

I know that from all that I've read and the handful adult transgender people I came into contact with when my parents were getting me the help I needed, as well as those I met at the hospital after surgery have all expressed emotions ranging from being thrilled that someone as young as me had transitioned and them wishing they could have done the same to a couple who were almost insanely jealous of my childhood to the point of weirding me out and kinda scaring me.

All I know is I am glad I never grew a beard, got chest hair and began to sound like barry white.

That would have destroyed me and I'd have been looking for the least messy, quickest way to go quietly into that good night.
edit on 4-9-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)




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