FOX News: Transgender girl drops class after 200 protest for and against her.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

Once you reach maturity that is a whole different topic. To say being placed in an environment that that doesn't promote it, but provides emulation through upbringing is different. THAT is the difference between emulation and imitation.

a reply to: WhiteHat

Then the mood changes or we smarten up and realize it was a fleeting thing

Yep those are phases. Yes people do experiments but like you said they are fleeting.

So see if the children who are not truly transgender children think they are that way by influence it will not last long.

a reply to: Vector99

Oh so you mean positive reinforcement? (or you could say that this is negative reinforcement)

a reply to: Deaf Alien

Once you reach a mature level that you can think for yourself without any outside influences, I support it 100%

Children are influenced whether you believe it or not. Environmental situations can ease or deter the influence.

There are several cases of transgender regrets, but not many public cases of it.

a reply to: Vector99

Children are influenced whether you believe it or not. Environmental situations can ease or deter the influence.

Yes I know that. That is not debatable. What is debatable is can the children be so convinced that they are of the opposite sex from influence that it will last for the rest of their lives?

Tho I do know about the environmental situations. They do mess people up, especially children.

There are several cases of transgender regrets, but not many public cases of it.

We all regret things anyway. Part of being humans. But I'd like to know the statistics of those people who regretted it though. I have and do know several transgender people and they seem happy.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

as hard as it is to come out, how hard do you think it is to say later in life you were wrong?

a reply to: Vector99

For those non transgender people who actually believe they are? I'd imagine incredibly hard.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

And I support those that do, once they reach maturity level and still feel the same.

you HAVE to admit for some it's a phase. Wait til you are done growing and maturing to make it official.

After that? I'll be in that parade with you no hesitations to support you.

a reply to: Vector99

Oh I know you do support those people. I am glad you do. I have many LBGT friends.

The problem though is the depression and possibly suicide among transgender children and teenagers. How would we deal with that? As you see, it's not so simple as you think.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

we got this lil thingy we are talking over, it's not hard to make a private forum.

a reply to: Vector99

Oh it's fine. Our conversation is very relevant to this topic.

Some people here in this thread are very doubtful about Lila. After reading their posts explaining their reasons, I got to admit that I am not too sure about Lila. We don't have the full story.

People should stop calling him "she" and if HE does not follow school rules then HE is out, the school board where kind enough to make facilities just for this weirdo and he throws it back in their face.

Just because he wears a wig and girls clothes does not make him a female, to be honest I think these transgender people have a mental disorder.

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
a reply to: kaylaluv
Abnormalities none the less.

Couple of MAJOR differences:

Mental disorders like Schizophrenia prohibit people from living normal lives because they can't tell what is reality around them. Transgender people are fully able to discern reality around them - they are able to work, learn, effectively communicate with others, etc. They typically don't crawl around on all fours, refusing to act like humans, nor do they hear voices or drool, nor are they unable to speak coherently.

There are medications and therapy that people with mental disorders can take advantage of that will greatly alleviate or eliminate their symptoms. There have been NO successful medications or therapies that have eliminated the transgender person's situation. The only cure is to have the transgender person live their lives as the gender they identify with. That is the ONLY cure that has worked fairly consistently.

Of course, some day in the future, science might find a way to diagnose gender dysphoria at birth (or even before), and physically alter the brain (with drugs or surgery) to change someone's gender identity, but we certainly aren't there yet. So to say that they are just crazy and need mental help is being ignorant of the facts.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Mental disorders like Schizophrenia prohibit people from living normal lives because they can't tell what is reality around them.

Oh yes thank you so very much! That's a major difference! That right there is a very excellent answer.

We can't compare homosexuality and gender dysphoria to schizophrenia.

Stellar post my friend. I would give you more stars if I could.

originally posted by: Vector99
Jade you have to look at the other side of the coin.

I have, and from every angle which is one reason I did not immediately respond once the thread was reopened several times after people got heated.

As others point out, in a previous thread about the decision to allow people who are trans to serve in the military I stated that I too would be uncomfortable showering with a transgender woman who was not discrete about concealing her different genitalia around me or any other women in a women's changing room or women's space.

Key word: discretion.

I also have always qualified my support of Lila with things such as "if Lila is really trans" in this thread while cautiously supporting her in principle because I once face something similar from one set of parents out of a school of around 1,000 students.

So I have experienced life on both sides of this discussion: Both as a girl who faced similar but minor opposition (compared to what Lila is facing) over the school allowing me to use the girls room when I still had male genitalia. And now as a 20 year young woman who is suspicious of transgender people who aren't discrete about concealing their birth difference. Ekron, another woman born differently expressed similar sentiment elsewhere in this thread.


Both sides have concerns which they feel are legitimate ones.


However, only one side's concerns seemed to be the prime focus and concern of many in this thread when we lack data as to whether they are as legitimate. Does Lila like girls? How does she feel about her penis? We don't know. The same goes for the social media the threats made against Lila. Where are the screenshots? Did Lila report them to school administrators? What was their reaction? Again, we don't know.

Many do not feel I should be allowed to assume Lila could be physically harmed using the boys room or psychologically scared for life due to being ostracized.

Again. Double standard.

Very little was said about the very real likelihood that Lila would be vulnerable to being attacked in the boys facility or that being forced to draw attention to her difference each time she had to use facilities which if she is trans, could have a very negative impact on her social development as the gender which matches her brain's physical structure which would be the same as the girls protesting against her.

Beyond the fact that the girls who were against her were well supported in this thread I was also afraid that expressing support for both sides of this issue would lead to me being bullied and attacked by another ATS member who did so in the military policy change on transgender people thread.

From what I've seen I would be concerned because as others have stated Lila doesn't seem to know that she should conceal her difference.

Nearly every legit transgender girl does EVERYTHING the CAN to conceal their difference from others and their self. That said, maybe she just doesn't know how yet?

I do not know Lila so I can not tell you if she is legitimately trans but I find the prejudiced reaction to automatically assume the worst about her shockingly ignorant.

I would have loved to hear from her parents, her psychologist (was she ever formally evaluated by her doctor or therapist as being transgender? we don't know, thanks lamesteam media.)

I'd also have liked to hear from the girls who protested in SUPPORT of her because her parents probably know her better than anyone and those in support obviously have their reasons for supporting her which in absence of an assessment of her from medical professionals is better than her simply stating her case.

We lack data. And in the absence of a more complete picture, people due to their own biases and fear, fill in the blanks and assume the worst in her.

I found that to be extremely reactionary and prejudicial.

The girls in the locker room felt uncomfortable enough to stage a protest, in high school. A walk out protest.

And yet others protested for her but one group seems to be considered valid in their opposition and the other is ignored in their support because the former feed in to a media which exploits fears and promotes fear over education and reason not just on this issue but so many other widely misunderstood issues. (Don't get me started on the sad state of science journalism in the US.)

Serving the needs of one does not vindicate the need of the transgender.

Nor does serving the needs of those who have fears about her which may or may not be legitimate depending on the nature, discretion and character of Lila for which we have no 3rd party professional medical opinion and assessment.

I hate to go into the law here, but the law says penis = boy.

Then explain why the law permitted me to use the ladies restroom everywhere, change my birth certificate and have an F on my Washington State drivers license before I had surgery. That is not a new thing either. It's been that way since before I was born.

I understand that surgery is NOT available to a minor. I also understand that 100+ girls were NOT ok with it.

And the opinions of the girls who were ok with it protested in support of her are of no relevance?

If so then. why the double standard?

The result ended up the same in the end. Lila had her own locker room instead of staff facility room because everyone else left.

Which is unfortunate since what might have been a teachable moment (as was the case in my school) turned into a problem due to lack of information. Sadly in a place of education.

I suspect that her schools administrators are to blame for that.

Students should be learning not walking out in protests for any reason. People protest things all the time based on lack of education or information.

I understand why they felt they should but just because they did does not give their reasons for doing so any validity if Lila truly is trans.

I've said elsewhere that these issues would be best dealt with on a case by case basis. Broad brushes tend to miss a lot of details but reactionary fear in the absence of real data can and often has been used against misunderstood or marginalized people, often with tragic consequences

a reply to: JadeStar

True, we don't know if Lila has been identified as transgender by a licensed therapist(s). If so, than I would assume the therapist(s) should be working with the school administration on how best to handle Lila's situation. Has that been happening? I don't know...

a reply to: JadeStar

However, only one side's concerns seemed to be the prime focus and concern of many in this thread when we lack data as to whether they are as legitimate. Does Lila like girls? How does she feel about her penis? We don't know. The same goes for the social media the threats made against Lila. Where are the screenshots? Did Lila report them to school administrators? What was their reaction? Again, we don't know.

They are valid concerns. I do understand the other side points. Actually I do agree. We do not know much about Lila. As burdman would say, he doesn't want some stranger going in there after suddenly saying that he is a transgender girl.

And the opinions of the girls who were ok with it protested in support of her are of no relevance?

If so then. why the double standard?

Oh yeah that is true. Nobody on either side will change their minds so thats why I proposed a solution.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
a reply to: JadeStar

I just got back and read the rest of your posts, and if you don't mind I would like to answer you.

First of all let us putt aside all that bigotry and ignorance accusations, so we can make the air more breathable and people more willing to get your point.

Lets not because those accusations are valid based on the gap in knowledge between the people who have studied and worked closely with transgender kids and adults for the last 30 years and the ATS members who feel their opinions no matter how misplaced should have more validity than the research of neurologists, endocrinologists, psychologists and other medical professionals.

What is not ok about your replies in all of these threads is that you make everything so personally. We talk, here and in other posts about trans issues as a general topic, and people express their opinions, justified or not. But then you come in and make it all about you and your feelings and your childhood and your parents and so on; which I am sorry to say is a cheap and unfair tactic.

No, but yours actually is a cheap and unfair tactic.

I'll explain.

My experience and my parents raising me is adding data to a discussion of an issue from people who actually have dealt with it you know, for real rather than an esoteric debate in isolation.

You have a problem with people who might be better informed than the average ATS user . I get that.

I get it, you want to nullify and silence me because of what I and my parents have brought to the table. First hand experience.

But if you want to remove that then you might also want to ask women not to contribute anything front their personal experience to subjects such as domestic violence or bar minorities not share anything from their personal experience dealing with discrimination from topics about racism.

Or astronauts from discussions about space for that matter.

It's a tactic to take people who might be opposed to the majority view out of the picture.

Nice try but it's total fail.

(continued)

a reply to: JadeStar

You take it however you want, I clarified my position.
I don't try to nullify you since I'm talking with you and I ask pertinent questions about the topic at hand.
But anger and hurt feelings are never a trustful adviser.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
a reply to: JadeStar Because further arguing with you will mean a direct attack on you. Can you see my point?

That you believe people on ATS are incapable of parsing factual information from the person who delivers it? Or that they can not participate in a civil way? Yes. And you're wrong. Either that or I give this forum too much credit.

And if everybody is willing to express their fair opinion about a general topic, most will restrain on expressing their opinion on you, personally. And if they do is a given that you will feel offended

As long as it is on topic and not a personal attack I would not be offended. As I said, people can hold whatever opinions they want. That doesn't make all opinions scientifically valid.

It's just as true for people who want to ignore the wealth of scientific evidence that I and others were born with female brains despite once having male genitals (and vice versa) as it is for people who believe the world is flat in the Space Exploration forum.

What you want to do is limit the discussion to people with no first hand knowledge or expert opinion for whatever reason.

Again if one wants to ignore scientific evidence due to personal dogma they're free to do so and I should be free to hold the candle in the dark for those who may actually be willing to re-evauate their belief based on better or more complete information.