How to reduce Gun violence without gun control

originally posted by: rockintitz
a reply to: openminded2011

potential violent individuals

Ugh. That includes everyone.

I get where your going with this but mental illness will never cease to exist. 7 billion people.. There's gonna be quite a few bad ones.

The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. So do your civic duty and pack some heat.

That is exactly right.

And when and if they get our guns, there will only be bad guys left with guns. And then true ugliness will bee seen. (Bad guys will be federal gun toting officers as well as other law enforcement with guns.)

There won't be any good guys left with guns if the guns are taken away.

originally posted by: openminded2011
a reply to: DAVID64

If you go back and read my original post, I stated that the mental health system as it stands doesnt work very well. What I am suggesting is a revamp to try to identify and treat potential mass shooters before they become violent.

What signs do these mass shooters give to indicate that they are going to go out and kill people?
What do you revamp?
A city cop in Reading, PA went nuts some years ago and shot two innocent people and then committed suicide. He had plenty of co-workers that should have noticed any signs. The problem was that he didn't exhibit any signs that he was going to do that.
Sometimes seemingly normal people snap.

a reply to: openminded2011

I had to sign up for an account just to reply to your thread.
So if I may... Mental illness is only a small part of the equation here.

Two days after the Church shooting in Charleston
Bryce Williams bought the first of 2 Glocks.

now in the Manifesto he sent to ABC news he wrote

It is unclear whose initials he is referring to. He continues, “As for Dylann Roof? You (deleted)! You want a race war (deleted)? BRING IT THEN YOU WHITE …(deleted)!!!” He said Jehovah spoke to him, telling him to act.

The soo called experts claim this shooting was a reprisal for being let go from his old job, but by his own admission this was his retaliation for his perceived race-war.

then just this morning we have the story of the Texas sheriff’s deputy ambushed in ‘execution-style killing’ at gas station.
Washington Post

where a big black man sneaks up behind this officer and shoots him in the back
Surveillance Images of Facebook

Possible race war attack??? to early to say right now but the thought is frightening and by far outstrips the gun control issue...

Still lets take a peek at one of the cities with the harshest gun control polices in the nation. Baltimore.

There were 45 people killed in Baltimore during July 2015, the most in one month since August 1972. Most came from historically impoverished neighborhoods, and all but two of the victims were males, all but two of them black.

Already this year (2015), the city has recorded more homicides this year than in all of 2014, when 211 people were killed. and yet popular media only reported on the one case of a young black man dying while in police custody. wonder why that is???

so what does that mean?
Gun control or not...race war or not...mental illness or not... It means the bad guys are no longer afraid... no fear for or of the consequences...It means, in places, civilization is coming unraveled !

a reply to: openminded2011

It’s the Republican congresses who don’t want to spend money on mental health or spend money on anything.

It’s also the GOP congress who won’t ever do gun control


Now after all these mass killings they are slowly FINALLY coming around to spending on mental health

Republicans Pushing Mental Health Care Over Gun Control Were Once Against Key Mental Health Laws

www.huffingtonpost.com...

It's definitely a mental health issue.

In London you could buy a gun in 5 minutes and shoot up anywhere en masse...


But it just doesn't happen.

So it's either mental health treatment here is much better...


Or the gun culture over your side is rancid.


But it can't be that.

Can it?

Of course a society where violence is everywhere: on TV, movies, books, and even sports that pervade the culture don’t help. Add this and more to the zillions of guns in the hands of citizens and you have a recipe for violence unprecedented in the world...

There’s also massive racism, sexism, and a culture of hatred in the country... and of course our black OP MK Ultra secret bandits

The US is the worst country when it comes to these types of killings

The United States Has Had More Mass Shootings Than Any Other Country

Nearly one-third of the world's mass shootings have occurred in the United States, a new study finds. Adam Lankford, an associate professor of criminal justice at the University of Alabama, has released the first quantitative analysis of public mass shootings around the world between 1966 through 2012. Unsurprisingly, the United States came out on top—essentially in a league of its own.

Over those five decades, the United States had 90 public mass shootings, defined as shootings that killed four or more victims. Of the 170 other countries examined in the study, only four even made it to double-digits: The Philippines had 18 public mass shootings, followed by Russia with 15, Yemen with 11, and France with 10.

This is a serious problem and the fact is WERE NOT DEALING WITH IT on any level

originally posted by: rockintitz
a reply to: openminded2011

potential violent individuals

Ugh. That includes everyone.

I get where your going with this but mental illness will never cease to exist. 7 billion people.. There's gonna be quite a few bad ones.

The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. So do your civic duty and pack some heat.

Well the problem is they'll say packing heat DOESN'T protect you. I'll link this as an example:
www.cnn.com - Ban guns, end shootings? How evidence stacks up around the world...

For starters, only the tiniest fraction of victims of violent crime are able to use a gun in their defense. Over the period from 2007-2011, when roughly six million nonfatal violent crimes occurred each year, data from the National Crime Victimization Survey show that the victim did not defend with a gun in 99.2% of these incidents -- this in a country with 300 million guns in civilian hands.

In fact, a study of 198 cases of unwanted entry into occupied single-family dwellings in Atlanta (not limited to night when the residents were sleeping) found that the invader was twice as likely to obtain the victim's gun than to have the victim use a firearm in self-defense.

The author of the study, Arthur Kellerman, concluded in words that Justice Thomas and Scalia might well heed:

On average, the gun that represents the greatest threat is the one that is kept loaded and readily available in a bedside drawer.

A loaded, unsecured gun in the home is like an insurance policy that fails to deliver at least 95% of the time you need it, but has the constant potential -- particularly in the case of handguns that are more easily manipulated by children and more attractive for use in crime -- to harm someone in the home or (via theft) the public at large.

First let me say I support your opinion.

The root cause of violence is a human caused problem. You can remove all the guns, knives, picks, wire, and other like items that can cause harm to others.  We can have our legislators legislate laws on all weapons till the cows come. At the end of the day we have not or are not solving our root cause problem.

Mental illness whether it be caused by genetic disorders or is caused externally by the human environment is the serious root cause of our violence towards one another. It's the elephant in the room.

Until we the American public can see the elephant and do something about it; we will continue down this violent road.

Mental illness is a huge problem. Although our Psychiatric Mental Health community has made some healthy strides in helping us; they need to do much much more. At present much research is being conducted in both medications and one on one and group therapy. However, the current model is reactionary. The Mental Health system is trying to resolve the mental issues after the mental issues have manifested. In my opinion, and I have already posted about this subject, the Professional Mental Health System must move towards a proactive model. Focus must be to prevent mental illnesses before manifestation. Especially in the areas of human behaviors at an early age.

We must reach down deep into our souls to determine if we really want to make this happen. Why? It's going to be very expensive. It's going to come out of our pocket books. And.... do we really want the Mental Health Society to enter into our private lives to the degree necessary to rectify this violence. They'll need to know how we parent, how do we function as a person mentally, do we have violent behaviors, do we beat our spouses and children, do we nourish our children properly. This will need to be done at the earliest age possible. This will take many years to see results and mistakes will be made by the mental health professionals.

I could go on but I hope I get my point across.

It's our problem to fix if we have the courage, fortitude, and accept our private lives will be altered. It would be a major philosophical life change for all of us.
a reply to: openminded2011

originally posted by: Iamnotadoctor

originally posted by: rockintitz

originally posted by: Iamnotadoctor
a reply to: openminded2011

If a person suffering from a mental illness is trying to find a gun to shoot some people with, but finds it very difficult to get one, the likelyhood of them doing significant damage to large groups of people is far less.
A gun makes it very easy to kill a lot of people quickly before they can be subdued, whereas a knife makes things a lot harder for the person to wound many people.
It's quite simple when you think about it.

Wrong.

Mass Stabbing

A simple answer for a situation with an active shooter would be to have someone there to return fire.

Why do you think so many of these shooters go for places where the victims are likely unarmed?

The problem here is that people like you don't want to have any restrictions on your guns.
So inevitably you have to say "nope, nope, wrong, can't happen, wrong, wrong, won't work, nope", to any suggestions, no matter how logical they are.

What's your "logical" solution to end violence?

I'll wait...

I'd just like to note that violence of pretty much all sorts has been decreasing in the United States since the late 1980s or so. (You can look up official statistics on the FBI's website.) I have no idea if mental health treatment in the US has been getting *worse* since then but I somehow doubt it. It is true that guns are generally more widespread (a lot have been sold these past thirty years, and concealed handguns weren't as big a thing thirty years ago as they are now.)

The difference between then and now as I see it? The crazies have figured out how to get our attention. And we're egging them on whenever we read their manifestos, tweet about their shootings, and watch their trials.

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: openminded2011
a reply to: DAVID64

If you go back and read my original post, I stated that the mental health system as it stands doesnt work very well. What I am suggesting is a revamp to try to identify and treat potential mass shooters before they become violent.

What signs do these mass shooters give to indicate that they are going to go out and kill people?
What do you revamp?
A city cop in Reading, PA went nuts some years ago and shot two innocent people and then committed suicide. He had plenty of co-workers that should have noticed any signs. The problem was that he didn't exhibit any signs that he was going to do that.
Sometimes seemingly normal people snap.

Ok, Lets look at the example you are giving. Obviously that cop DID have some issues that no one noticed, but if he had been able to go in for some kind of mental health screening like you can now go in for a blood pressure check, isnt it possible that infrastructure in existence might have picked up on his problems and gotten him help before he went on a shooting spree? That is the point I am trying to make. If we had more and better mental health care we might be able to prevent some of these events from happening.

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: openminded2011
It’s the Republican congresses...It’s also the GOP congress...

Are you a bot?

a reply to: DAVID64
That's right. The shrinks themselves will tell you upwards of half the population suffers from mental illness at some point in life. Those pseudo-scientists are constantly creating new 'disorders.'

Imagine a society where a teenage depression diagnosis restricts a person from owning a gun for life. That's where I would see this kind of thing going - straight to Orhell.

The UK has banned guns.

Great.

People there get killed with knives, stones, cinderblocks, and any other convenient implements.

We DEFINITELY need to address the problem, and not the symptom.

Great post, OP.

a reply to: mysterioustranger

I'm amazed! Where I'm located, the shelves have been bare and just recently multiple stores have been getting more quantity of multiple calibers. The price for 9mm has been around $29.95 for 50 round, just to give an example. 22LR, impossible to find and when I do find them, they are $65 for 500 rounds. Not like the old days when a person could get Federal 550 rounds for $11.99. Looks like I might need to drive up to Detroit.

originally posted by: Iamnotadoctor

originally posted by: rockintitz

originally posted by: Iamnotadoctor
a reply to: openminded2011

If a person suffering from a mental illness is trying to find a gun to shoot some people with, but finds it very difficult to get one, the likelyhood of them doing significant damage to large groups of people is far less.
A gun makes it very easy to kill a lot of people quickly before they can be subdued, whereas a knife makes things a lot harder for the person to wound many people.
It's quite simple when you think about it.

Wrong.

Mass Stabbing

A simple answer for a situation with an active shooter would be to have someone there to return fire.

Why do you think so many of these shooters go for places where the victims are likely unarmed?

The problem here is that people like you don't want to have any restrictions on your guns.
So inevitably you have to say "nope, nope, wrong, can't happen, wrong, wrong, won't work, nope", to any suggestions, no matter how logical they are.

So, you are locked in a conference room at work with a group of coworkers by an armed guy that was just fired. He's chained the door and you are all screwed. How exactly is having more armed people around not going to help? If a coworker locked in the same place had his gun, would you tell him not to save you all and pray that police come?

Just as you claim someone else has to inevitably say 'nope, nope, wrong, wrong,' it seems that you are in that situation.

a reply to: openminded2011

Obviously that cop DID have some issues that no one noticed,

He did?

but if he had been able to go in for some kind of mental health screening like you can now go in for a blood pressure check, isnt it possible that infrastructure in existence might have picked up on his problems and gotten him help before he went on a shooting spree?

How often should we get these screenings? Every day?
If we get them every day, what do we do when there are still people going off the deep end because they had their breakdown after the screenings(and before the next day's screenings)?

Whether people on the site want to acknowledge it or not, it is mind altering drugs basically causing the generated hate and blood lust that is violence these days. From alcohol to Adderal people medicate themselves to "cope" with their day to day business and interactions. These days it is too easy to be prescribed some kind of drug to make a person "feel" better. These drugs alter the mind in ways that is ultimately unknown. Each one of us have different reactions to the same drugs. Stopping the taking of a drug does not stop the changes that have or will occur inside the brain. Almost all of them are very dangerous.

I think that when a person is found with any drug in his/her possession (except marijuana, which seems to be 99.99% benign unless mixed with PCP) they should immediately be kneeled down and shot in the back of the head. I know this is crass, but if you have seen and experienced the groups of people that cannot and will not escape the pull and addiction that is legal and illegal drugs and the terror and turmoil it causes, you may have the same feelings, I don't know.

Doctors should not be allowed to prescribe any mind altering drug. If a person is determined to be in need of a mind altering drug, they should be institutionalized during the administration of the drug and kept until it is determined that there is no drug(s) in their system and no harm has affected the brain. Only then should they be released and supervised for another six months.

I can see the CIA wringing its hands at the thought of the above paragraph...

The only mental Illness is thinking that Illness is mental.


Nietzsche wrote an essay on psychology called "Genealogy of Morals" where he (a German) asked why all these British Academics were tossing thousands of years of morality into the trash and pushing their new thing called Psychology. As though no one on Earth had ever asked moral questions before.


Further he asked why?

– These English psychologists, who have to be thanked for having made
the only attempts so far to write a history of the emergence of morality, –
provide us with a small riddle in the form of themselves; in fact, I admit
that as living riddles they have a significant advantage over their books –
they are actually interesting! These English psychologists – just what do
they want?

Genealogy of Morals
Page 1
Line 1

Well here we are 128 years later and we can answer the question with experience. These psychologists want authority, and unquestioning loyalty from their patients. Other than that, they have cured no one, created many monsters, and continue to fail to prevent anything. (Robin Williams anyone?)

And these are the people who are going to judge the fitness of an individual to own a firearm.

I think not.

In fact I think an escalation is the only "sane" (to borrow their term) response.




Mike Grouchy

No, seriously. Knives?! . . . freakin knives ...?
Tell that to the woman at the end of this video.






With the increase in firearm sales in America we have seen approximately

85% reduction in home invasion
30% reduction in firearm crime

We have our arms. We are ready. This is no planet of sheep.







Mike Grouchy