Gender neutral craze comes to The University of Tennesee

originally posted by: ketsuko
Here's another issue with this:

Imagine how complicated normal conversation or even writing would be with this although convos would be worse. If this is a voluntary policy,

FYI: There are many languages which do not have gender specific pronouns.

a reply to: JadeStar

This isn't one of them, and the issue I raised wasn't about gender in this or that language. It was about letting everone decide which set they wanted to be applied to them.

If I am in a conversation with three people I have just met, it is hard enough to remember names let alone now having to remember if one, two or all three want gender specific or gender neutral pronouns, not to mention having to remember to modify my sentences to reflect that fact every single time I switch up or attempt to just use a indefinite pronoun.

How would you use an indefinite pronoun in a mixed group? It would be improper to simply default to either gender specific or gender neutral when you have some who use one set and some who use the other - say four biological men with two who use gender specific and two who like gender neutral.

Caveat: "Indefinite" in the sense of using a he or she in a conversation that refers to an unspecified person with no clear antecedent. We do it when talking all the time.

Are you also going to go on a crusade against Spanish next? The whole structure of that language assigns gender to everyone and everything.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: JadeStar

This isn't one of them

English has shown a great propensity towards evolving.

Are you also going to go on a crusade against Spanish next? The whole structure of that language assigns gender to everyone and everything.

I am not going on any crusade and we're talking about English not Spanish.

originally posted by: JadeStar


The issue however is that gender dysphoria is not like schizophrenia.

my point was they did not know this back in the day.
50 years ago they were blasting schitzos with unsulin and shocking the # out of them.
from what i understand transgender is barely understood now in 2015.
that was my point

and ketsuko, i i have found it is easier of you just talk and say what is on your mind.
who cares who gets offended?

these days almost everyone is offended by something.

i have always felt that if a person gets offended by something i say, that says way more about that person than it does about me.
i dont actively try to offend people. but i am of the opinion that if it happens, it happens.
bfd

a reply to: ketsuko

people just take # way too serious and try to be offended. i really feel that way.

something as simple as saying "whats up guys" to a group of people
everyone uses this language.
i do it every day

its how language works.

at work i may walk into an area with 3 males and 7 females.....i still say whats up guys and they all acknowledge

a reply to: JadeStar

When you try to push English to change into a gender neutral position to suit yourself, you are.

Also, English does not evolve, it borrows. If anything, it's structure has remained more or less unchanged, including it's gender terminology.

If you find it offensive that English has gender specific terms, you should be MUCH more offended by the Romance languages like Spanish and French which are far more gender oriented and specific, and yet, somehow only English is considered "evil" and in need of change.

a reply to: JadeStar

It is such a complicated situation making the right decision can be a matter of life and death,

originally posted by: Mugly

originally posted by: JadeStar


The issue however is that gender dysphoria is not like schizophrenia.

my point was they did not know this back in the day.
50 years ago they were blasting schitzos with unsulin and shocking the # out of them.
from what i understand transgender is barely understood now in 2015.

It's actually better understood in terms of treatment. Which really is all that matters once you know someone is born this way, living and breathing.

I guess I see both sides of this debate.

On one hand I like the use of gender specific pronouns. My parents and I sacrificed a great deal so that I could have female pronouns. I like being a girl, woman, she, her etc.

Why would I want to give them up for some nebulous "gender-neutral" ones?

On the other hand before I was allowed to begin living as a girl publicly, at school I was still referred to as a boy even though at home I was allowed to be myself.

To someone who is not born trans it's hard to convey how hurtful that was and the feelings of depression which come along with being continually mis-gendered.

So for 5 years between 7 and 12 that was what happened. Girl at home, forced to be a "boy" at school.

Asking the school to use female pronouns when I was forced to present a boy image would have been asking too much.

But if the school didn't refer to boys and girls and divide us up and address me as a boy then that would have been preferable to what I had to go through during those years.

So for kids like I was and for transgender adults or non-binary adults maybe gender neutral is they way to go? I don't know.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: JadeStar

It is such a complicated situation making the right decision can be a matter of life and death,

I know this first hand.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: JadeStar

When you try to push English to change into a gender neutral position to suit yourself, you are.

But I am not.

Also, English does not evolve, it borrows. If anything, it's structure has remained more or less unchanged, including it's gender terminology.

It does both. There are words for things which didn't exist added to the english language every year formally. Not to mention informal or "slang" which is readily accepted into the english lexicon.

If you find it offensive that English has gender specific terms

But I am not offended that it does.

I am simply saying that English may evolve to include more gender neutrality as need arises. Not by force but out of necessity. That may be what we are witnessing and your perception of it is that it is forced.

you should be MUCH more offended by the Romance languages like Spanish and French which are far more gender oriented and specific, and yet, somehow only English is considered "evil" and in need of change.

Look, I am a student studying to become an astrobiologist.

Most people assume that if we find some species of advanced aliens they will be just like us with males and females etc. But what if they are not? Plenty of species on earth are asexual or hermaphroditic.

How would we refer to the gender of our new alien overlords if they evolved on another planet from an asexual or hermaphroditic species?

I don't know, but we'd find a way. We'd come up with new pronouns because that is what we as English speakers do more readily than those who speak the romance languages.

a reply to: JadeStar

There are several reasons you can't be gender neutral though. Want to recommend something do it. But accept not everyone will do it. If it stays at a recommendation whatever. Beyond that it's ridiculous. The problem I see is pushing it beyond recommendations and that is the problem.

Nothing offensive about he she, man woman , boy girl. The difference is a reality and needed.

originally posted by: Reallyfolks
a reply to: JadeStar

There are several reasons you can't be gender neutral though.

What do you refer to someone you meet online perhaps in a forum like ATS, whose gender is not readily apparent from their username or avatar?

a reply to: JadeStar

I ask if I care then follow with honey or dude depending on response. /sarcasm. But online is not real world and is nothing like being in front of someone. Be it biological or social gender identity the difference is needed.

As stated the human brain works on classification of information. Gender is a basic one. So unless you work to change the way a brain functions it's an exercise in failure, causes problems, and not realistic.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Reallyfolks
a reply to: JadeStar

There are several reasons you can't be gender neutral though.

What do you refer to someone you meet online perhaps in a forum like ATS, whose gender is not readily apparent from their username or avatar?

either he
or they
of them
i would think most people use the same language

a reply to: JadeStar

The problem with forced gender neutrality is that it strips identity from the people who have it just to try to solve problems for others.

Can you prove that the problem you had is common enough to strip all gender identity from daily language? You said yourself that you don't really want your gender stripped now.

Not only that, but this will wind up being like removing scores from kids sports events. Do you honestly think the kids don't know the score even if the adults kid themselves into believing that there is no score? So you can force the teacher not to say "boy" or "girl" and you can take the signs down, but the kids are well aware of who is and who isn't and they will treat each other accordingly. All you've done is remove the adult supervision from the equation and forced it underground where no one in a position of authority is monitoring because we've made it all "neutral" so they aren't doing that now.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Mugly

originally posted by: JadeStar


The issue however is that gender dysphoria is not like schizophrenia.

my point was they did not know this back in the day.
50 years ago they were blasting schitzos with unsulin and shocking the # out of them.
from what i understand transgender is barely understood now in 2015.

It's actually better understood in terms of treatment. Which really is all that matters once you know someone is born this way, living and breathing.

if course it is.
and 50 years from now it will be even better understood..thats how medicine works
we dont usually go backwards as far as treatment.
today you can have surgery and take pills
50 years ago you would have been electro shocked
5000 years ago trepanation would have been the treatment of the day

a reply to: Mugly

Or "you" which can get you into trouble because think you are referring to someone personally whether you are or you aren't.

originally posted by: Reallyfolks
a reply to: JadeStar

I ask if I care then follow with honey or dude depending on response. /sarcasm. But online is not real world and is nothing like being in front of someone. Be it biological or social gender identity the difference is needed.

As stated the human brain works on classification of information. Gender is a basic one. So unless you work to change the way a brain functions it's an exercise in failure, causes problems, and not realistic.

No one is arguing that. But there is nothing about the human brain or English which requires there only to be two gender pronouns. As I said I like the pronouns I am assigned now but at one time I didn't.

So I can see both sides of this issue.

originally posted by: Mugly

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Mugly

originally posted by: JadeStar


The issue however is that gender dysphoria is not like schizophrenia.

my point was they did not know this back in the day.
50 years ago they were blasting schitzos with unsulin and shocking the # out of them.
from what i understand transgender is barely understood now in 2015.

It's actually better understood in terms of treatment. Which really is all that matters once you know someone is born this way, living and breathing.

if course it is.
and 50 years from now it will be even better understood..thats how medicine works
we dont usually go backwards as far as treatment.
today you can have surgery and take pills
50 years ago you would have been electro shocked
5000 years ago trepanation would have been the treatment of the day

Agreed.

I suspect in the future things like nanotechnology will reconfigure the body of babies who are identified prenatally as transgender.

It seems most ignorant people's issues are "but you were born blah blah blah so that's all you'll ever be".

Problem solved.