ATS Debate: Round 1: Dragonrider vs. Illmatic67

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posted on Jun, 8 2003 @ 04:44 PM
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ATS Great Debate
Round One


Dragonrider vs. Illmatic67

Topic: Humans did not evolve, nor were they created. Instead, we were seeded by interstellar scientists of an alien extraterrestrial race.

Dragonrider will take the affirmative position, agreeing with the statement and will have first opening statement.

Illmatic67 will take the contrary position, and will have first closing statement.

Editing of your posts is strictly prohibited! For obvious reasons. Editing your post results in immediate forfeiture.

1- Competitors assigned the affirmative position go first with an opening statement, and have right of passing their opening statement post to their contrary position competitor. Opening statements cannot contain links.

2- Each competitor in turn contributes six posts to support their side of the topic. (For a total of seven posts) These are the only posts within the debate that may contain links to articles, or embedded pictures/graphics. (one link or graphic per post). No more than 18 hours between posts or you forfeit your turn.

3- The competitor representing the contrary position has first right of closing statement. As with the opening statement, they have an opportunity to pass to their competitor representing the affirmative position. Closing statements cannot contain links.

4- Each competitor can submit one rebuttal to their competitors closing statement, but cannot exceed 200 words. Rebuttals are not required.

This is a total of 18 posts, the debate is closed, and voting begins. Forum members will vote on the merits of your capabilities arguing your side of the position, not their opinion of the position.

The debate begins at 23:00 GMT today. Opening statement from the affirmative side is due by 17:00 tomorrow, or the opening statement is passed to the contrary side.

Good luck, and have fun.




posted on Jun, 8 2003 @ 11:20 PM
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Are humans homegrown, or were we seeded from the stars?

As it stands, the best evidence to date is that humanity, in the form of Australopithicus Afarensis, first walked the planet approximately 5 million years ago.

The accepted timeline for human evolution is this:

Australopithicus (Southern Man), 5 million to 2 million years ago
Homo Habilis (Tool Using Man) 2 million to 1.75 million years ago
Homo Erectus (Upright Man) 1.75 million to 200,000 years ago
Homo Sapiens Neaderthalensis (Neanderthals) 200,000 to 30,000 years ago
Homo Sapiens Sapiens (Modern Man) 30,000 to present.

It is obvious that human evolution has been accelerating throughout the fossil record in a geometric pattern, with ever decreasing time intervals for evolutionary "jumps" from one stage to the next.

The newest accepted theory of evolution does not specify a constantly/slowly changing evolutionary pattern, but rather a series of static timelines, interrupted at specific periods with a sudden "jump" to a new species. This "jump" is often interpretted as a mutation to the species that results in a benefit that helps the species develope, therefore those members with the mutation become dominant and overtake the rest of the species. Indeed, there is evidence that some species overlapped in the fossil record. The most interesting evidence is that Cro Magnon (earliest of Homo Sapiens Sapiens) coexisted for a short time with Neanderthal, and likely interacted.

Neanderthals extinction soon after this overlap is interpretted as Cro Magnon wiping out Neanderthal through competition or possibly conflict.

So what does all this have to do with aliens seeding the human race?

Quite a lot actually.

Up to about the point in evolution of Homo Habilis, human evolutionary steps were taking litterally millions of years each. Suddenly, around 200,000 years ago, we experienced the largest evolutionary jump, leading to the first truly intelligent human species. All subsequent human evolutionary jumps have occurred at lighting speed (relatively speaking) to the previous human existence, and indeed, compared to all other animals in the fossil record.

So we have an anomaly in the human evolutionary record, that has never existed, and has not existed since, and has never existed anywhere else in the fossil record. How did it get there?

The leading candidate for an explaination would be intervention from an outside source. Considering the time scale involved and the required genetic manipulation, this would have to be from a source not originating from this planet.

The theory of prehistoric extra terrestrial interaction and potential genetic manipulation was first put forward by Eric Von Danniken, and Zecharia Sitchin. Although both of these researchers have differing theories, the overall thrust of thier contentions are the same: The earth was visited in the ancient past, and the visitors influenced the path of human evolution.

These views are supported by multiple historical records from around the world that contain seemingly differing accounts, but when viewed through technologically savy eyes of today, they all seem to be describing events and things with a deffinite advanced technological content; The Vimanas of India (airborne vehicles), the Mayan flying dragon (airborne vehicles), the Ark of the Covenant (theorized to be anything from a radio of sorts to a self contained food production device to a nuclear reactor), and many other similar instances.

However, one very interesting piece of evidence exists suggesting prehistoric genetic manipulation of the human species. This piece of evidence is present in every living human being.

Telomeres.

Telomeres are the end strands of DNA that allow only a fixed number of cell divisions. At the end of the specified number of cell divisions, no further cell divisions occur, and those that are left continue functioning until they are damaged by oxidative damage or DNA repair error. Then they die.

In laymans terms, telomeres are a preprogrammed self destruct bomb in each cell that tells your cells, and therefore your body when to die.

Assuming that the human race is some kind of genetic experiment, would it not be logical to build in a genetic self destruct mechanism? Considering how quickly the human race is evolving and advancing, would it not be a worry to the "masters" that we could someday overtake them in scientific advancement? Providing a finite lifespan, a rather short one at that, would go a long way toward slowing us down.



posted on Jun, 9 2003 @ 03:57 PM
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To state the accepted timeline of evolution while trying to prove that aliens created human life is a contradiction. There is no evolution. They either created us or they didn't. Let's just believe the erroneous idea of aliens creating human life. They would never use evolution. See, us humans did go through an evolution, just as posted above. But, if aliens would've formed us into life from their "own image" they would've created us, no evolution needed. Evolution is small time.

And the reason why humans accelerating according to dragronrider is because evolution. That's what evolution is all about, the process of change to a higher state. That's what happened. There wasn't no aliens. No alien created us. The earth was already here before life started, it was just a vast space of emptiness. Did the aliens "fix" the earth for us too?

If you want to try to prove to me aliens seeded life form you have to prove to me that aliens exist in the first place. There is no evidence of alien life. For all we know, we're alone in the universe. Only evidence we have of aliens includes either the word conspiracy or falsehood.

And let's take a walk in the dark and believe aliens seeded human lifeform. Where are they? The only believers of such a thing is the Raelians and they're like 60,000 strong. Three religions of the same God (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism) combined is ummm, let me think.... 3+ Billion strong. How come these aliens let a "Mystery God" take control of the earth. How come the aliens didnt send their own messengers and their book to humanity to tell us, "Hey, we're here and we're aliens?"

Oh, Aliens didnt build the pyramids either. Wonder why the pyramids are ever so precisely(sp?) aligned with the stars in the sky? Because the Ancient Egyptians were just that damn smart.

See, no big terms needed. You don't need to look in a dictionary to find what a word means here. It's just common sense.

What does Telomeres have anything to do with proving aliens seeded human life? Hmmm, sounds to me your deseparately trying to think of stuff. We die, because we die. That's the way it's always been. Nothing stays on top forever. Newton's laws of physics, whatever goes up must come down. Whatever has a beginning must have an ending to balance out the cycle of life. It's the cycle of life.

Back to this evolution thing. Humans arent the only things that have evolved. Animals went through evolution. Trees, plants, diseases, and bacteria all went through some kind of evolution. I bet aliens seeded all that too, right? Because they created bacteria out of their "own image" right?

Ladies and gentleman, it's a simple thing called Evolution. That's why we're evolution. God planted the seeds of life and He let Evolution do the rest...



posted on Jun, 9 2003 @ 07:12 PM
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I fear that there is NO contradiction in stating the timeline of human evolution when pointing out the possibility of extraterrestrial influence in our genetic makeup, except for those who are inexperienced in evolutionary paleontology.

For the untrained eye, indeed, this timeline simply shows how long it took humans to evolve to thier current point. For those who have experience tracking evolutionary trends, this timeline points out a very large discrepancy that modern science has yet to explain. For, at about 200,000 years ago, for some unknown reason, evolution kicked into high gear and cut in the afterburner. Something happened that has never happened before, and has not happened since... a truly sentient, self aware, intelligent entity evolved, at virtual lightening speed.

This very event has indeed stumped the worlds archeologists, paleontologists, zoologists and anthropologists. The hunt has been on ever since Richard Leaky found "Lucy" in Tanzania for the "missing link". Why is this search of such importance? Because the rapid evolution of an intelligent being in so short a time completely contravenes all accepted rules on evolution.

Indeed, evolution does not work in general the way as described with hominids at all. Evolution is generally an extremely slow process taking millions of years for any significant change whatsoever. Some species, such as the Shark, the Dragonfly, and the common Cockroach are virtually unchanged over more than 100 million years in the fossil record.

When I was in college, the paleontologists were split between vertebrate (with spinal column) and invertebrate (without a skeleton) paleontology. The common fight between the 2 camps was that although vertebrates were obviously the most advanced lifeforms, invertebrates represented 95% of all life on the planet.

With that in mind, consider that invertebrates, the oldest and most established life forms on the planet, with over 3.5 billion years to evolve, have reached the pinnacle of evolution and intelligence with the most advanced invertebrate lifeform... the Octopus.

Of even more interest is the story of the dinosaurs: These creatures were by far the dominant lifeform on the planet for in excess of 200 million years. Contrary to popular belief, they did NOT go completely extinct, but evolved... into birds. You and I dine on the modern decendent of T Rex whenever we visit KFC.

Now, keep these figures in mind... 3.5 billion years to produce the octopus, 200 million years for the dinosaurs... Consider that humanity has been on the planet in any form for less than 5 million years, and truly intelligent humanity has existed for only 200,000 years. In that time, we have practically becomes gods ourselves.

Perhaps now you see the anomaly of which I speak?

Why would an alien force modify our genetic structure, and allow us to evolve rather than make us from scratch in thier own image? That is a good question. The answer is that they were apparently looking for something other than what they were able to synthesize in a lab. All information available indicates that such alien intelligences already have the ability to create clones or totally synthetic lifeforms, in the form of the Grey aliens.

No, aliens did not create us from scratch in thier images, and they did not create our own biosphere around us, complete with all other early lifeforms. However, they did apparently find a perfectly suited biosphere for thier laboratory, rife with a multitude of vastly differing lifeforms.

It would have however been thier goal to find a suitable lifeform somewhat well along the evolutionary ladder which would be a good test bed with which to perform some simple genetic modifications to increase brain capacity and congnitive abilities, and likely to increase reproductive ability so as to increase the speed of genetic mutations.

It is interesting that you bring up the Raelian religion (of which I am NOT a member), and compare it to the other well established religions. I would contend that those same religions you mention have no more verifiable proof than any assertions that I make in this debate, and would further assert that substantially less evidence exists to support the religious claims of these religions as pertains to the origins of man than what is known and documented and points to extraterrestrial origins for the human race.

I can also say with regards to the major religions that disinformation and diversion tactics are not a new phenomenon, and are far more effective when put in place far in the past, allowing them to be ingrained in popular culture throughout the years without question.

In answer to your question, I would contend that the "masters" were here far before any of the religions came about on thier own. As to why they were allowed to take over? Disinformation and diversion to obscure the truth.

Also it is interesting that you bring up the Pyramids of the Giza Platau in Egypt. I will admit, it has been well proven that the Egyptians were absolute masters of geometry, trigonometry and all mathmatical prowess needed for the engineering of these structures. It is also known that they possessed sufficient technical prowess to flawlessly assemble the 2.5 million stone blocks together on the Great Pyramid with such close tolerances that a knife blade cannot be inserted between blocks.

However, the mystery of how 2.5 million blocks, all weighing in excess of 10 tons were quarried over 10 km away, and transported up the Giza Plateau, and then up to the top of the 150 meter pyramid.

(It has been estimated that using modern technology and heavy equipment, it would take the entire construction fleet of the entire nation of Egypt over 30 years to complete a copy of the Great Pyramind).

Also of interest is why is Egypt not the only place on the planet with such pyramids? Why do pyramids exist in Central and South American, using many of the same construction techniques? Why are inscriptions found on these pyramids that are identicle to sanskrit? Why do pictograms in Central America describe elephants, an animal that never existed in Central America?

To further prove the presence of prehistoric aliens, I would like to mention the Dogon mystery... The Dogon tribe, of Mali West Africa, which still exists in stone age technology, have described very specific astronomical information, including the fact that Jupiter has at least 4 moons, and Saturn has rings, all in spite of the fact that they do not possess technology of telescopes or other instruments of direct observation. They have even mentioned the presence of the star Sirius, with 2 companions, one described as being supermassive and orbiting with a period of 50 years. This evidence has only been confirmed by the launch of the Hubble Space Telescope.

The Dogons claim this information was given to them by "Visitors from the sky".

Telomeres are a very interesting genetic mystery... They shouldnt be there. They exist simply to kill the human body at a predetermined time. Without telomeres, it is entirely possible for the human race to exist with an average lifespan in excess of 200 years.

What possible benefit would alien scientists gain from incorporating telomeres into human genetic makeup? First of all, it acts as a safe guard, a genetic guarantee that humans wont live long enough, and advance fast enough to become a threat to them. Secondly, because it limits human lifespan, it allows faster turnover in the population, allowing faster dissemination of any genetic favorable genetic mutations.

Illmatic, I hand the discussion back to you.



posted on Jun, 11 2003 @ 09:32 AM
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Before I begin I'd like to apologize for being so late in this response. I couldn't access the site for at least a day and my graduation was last night so I was on the run doing last minute things.

Ok, let's start.

I can explain the anomaly you speak of dragonrider. It's called Evolution. Again, that's what evolution is all about, the process of change to a higher state. During those mystery 200,000 years you speak of, it was just evolution taking it's course, and changing into 5th gear.

Your right, religion does not have any concrete proof of its beliefs, just faith. The same for the Raelians. They have no proof that aliens created us. And it's funny because the only proof they can come up with comes entirely from the Bible and the Qur'an. Hmmm, if the Bible and Qur'an held no water, why would the Raelians use it for all their beliefs.

Even if you don't believe in the Bible and al-Qur'an you cannot deny it's significance, especially al-Qur'an. If you ever read the book, it has scientific miracles in it that no man in the 7th century could ever though of, especially with no technology. It's even a proven fact that when secular scientists read the scientific miracles in al-Qur'an they were amazed at how much the Prophet Muhammad knew about the universe, Human Embryonic Development, Seas and Rivers, and more.

You ask how he knew all this information? Easy, he was inspired by God and only God. The Qur'an stresses the importance that Allah is ONE God and only ONE God. He's not a combination of alien scientists that created us. He is The One, which is what Allah means.

Now you ask why there are pyramids all over the world, which there is. The other famous ones being the Mayan Pyramids in Central and South America. The Olmec Pyramids too, the first civilization in the America's. You had the answer with you but you couldn't get it. You say the Ancient Egyptians were Masters of Geometry and Engineering. Well, they were also the Masters of Astrology and the Sea. How do you think the Mayan people evolved? Do you think they just poofed, and appeared in the America's? NO. The Mayans were descendants of Egyptian travelers who sailed the sea's way before Columbus did. 4,000 years before Columbus to be exact. They were the Masters of engineering, constructing awesome ships that sailed them to the America's. Why do you think pyramids in the America's are directly aligned with those of Egypt? Because the Egyptians were the Masters of Astrology also. For more information on this, you might want to read They Came Before Columbus.

Now you speak of a West African Tribe in Mali? Let's see... According to you they live in stone age technology yet their able to describe very specific astronomical information. Well my answer to that is the Egyptians did the very same thing. That's nothing special. They are of no alien race.

They claim they got their information from "visitors from the sky" The ELOHIM? No, they got their information from themselves. And again, they "claim" Do they have any proof?

Back to the telomores. I'm sorry but I still don't know why this has anything to do with alien seeding human life. In the Bible, Adam lived to be 900 years, Noah like 700, Abraham like 800. Where were the telomores.

And you say aliens planted telomores in us so we can't live long and advance to supernatural heights? Well if aliens had the power to create us, don't you think they have the power to destroy us? Couldn't they just send a super duper nuclear bomb to earth if we ever "got out of hand...?"



posted on Jun, 11 2003 @ 07:01 PM
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Illmatic,

I wouldn't worry too much about your delay in posting on the debate. Due to the vicious DOS attack suffered by ATS, I think all debates are now at least 24 hours behind schedule. Besides that, I would never begrudge someone for running late due to thier graduation. (Illmatic, congratulations on graduating, and continuing on the next great step in life. May your life only continue onwards and upwards!
)

And with that, onwards and upwards we go:

Your explaination for the differences in human evolution over the past 200,000 years is interesting, but I fear inaccurate. If you assertion, that evolution in higher organisms naturally accelerates as these organisms advance were correct, there is a simple experimental model that would prove it.

"Lucy" (Australopithicus Afarensis) is considered the split point in evolution between what later became Homo Sapiens Sapiens (modern man) and mans closest genetic relative, the Chimpanzee. After the conclusion of the Human Genome Project, it was discovered that humans differed genetically from the Chimpanzee by approximately 1%. (Kind of scary to consider that such a small amount of genetic difference represents such a huge physiological difference.... it also serves to show just how little artificial genetic manipulation is needed to successfully spark intelligent evolution, leading to modern man)

Likewise, it has been found that modern Homo Sapiens Sapiens differs from Australopithicus by approximately the same amount or slightly more, less than 2% genetically.

The genetic difference between Australopithicus and Chimpanzee is far smaller, approximately one tenth of one percent. Essentially, Chimpanzee is just a step and a sneeze away from "Lucy", genetically speaking.

If your assertion were correct, that evolution of humans were natural, the evolution on both branches after "Lucy" should be equivalent, and the genetic difference between both Human and Chimpanzee from Australopithicus should be about the same.

Its not.

Regarding the scientific facts contained in both the Bible and the al Qur'an you cite, you are correct, at least in that scientific activities are described therein that are only today being found through modern science to be scientific in nature. Indeed, much of what is described in both books are being found to be nothing more than true science and technology, as described through the eyes of men who didnt understand this technology, and were at a loss as to how to correctly describe what they saw. Ironically, this significantly strengthens the arguement for prehistoric influence by aliens.

In the words of Arthur C. Clarke "Any sufficiently advanced technology would appear to be indistinguishable from magic."

A classic example is found in the Book of Ezekial, in the Bible. Indeed, so much controversy surrounded this book that a Nasa spacecraft engineer took it apart passage by passage in an attempt to debunk the theories of prehistoric aliens described in the Bible. After months of research on the subject, this Nasa scientist found that Ezekial was, to the best of his ability, describing a totally technological space craft of very defined abilities. This scientist went so far as to produce an engineering report, based on descriptions in Ezekial, that described a spacecraft, apparently nuclear powered, capable of both atmospheric and orbital flight, with further deductions on the crew, flight characteristics, potential mission profiles, and comparison to modern spaceflight technology (estimated to be approximately 150 years advanced from space technology at the time this book was written, which was in the 1970s).

You mention how much knowledge the Prophet Muhammad held regarding much natural science: is it not beyond possibility, that perhaps Muhammed was one of the aliens, or at least one of the trusted few humans entrusted with specific scientific knowledge by the aliens, in order to influence human social and religious development?

You mention that Allah is ONE god... but, if indeed aliens were to modify our very being for unknown purposes, and wished to maintain some control over the development of our social and cultural structures, would it not be logical to "plant" individuals with the ability to influence large numbers of people with great wisdom and scientific knowledge, in order to start and guide social and religious movements? (Yes, that does open the possibility that Muhammed, Jesus, and Buddah among other significant religious figures were aliens or "plants")

In answer to your question regarding why do the Raelians borrow so much from Christianity and Islam? Simply because they understand that a large number of thier recruits or converts will come from the large religions, and therefore borrowing certain aspects of each that fits with thier ideology will make conversion of new members easier.

Regarding the Mayan and Olmec pyramids, you mention the "colonization" theory, that certain seafaring Mediterranian civilizations managed to cross the oceans and influence large aborigional populations. This is a theory that has been floated in anthropological and archaeological circles for years: The general consensus in these same circles for this theory is that it may have occurred on a very sporadic basis, with very limited, if any, interraction with indiginous populations, certainly not on a scale that would seriously influence the host populations to build using the same technology and technique as used in Egypt.

The only real evidence we have regarding the "colonization" theory is the crossing of the North Sea by the Vikings, and establishing small bases in Greenland, Newfoundland, and Nova Scotia. The outcome of this was a very short lived trading empire with the Vikings, which eventually collapsed and the Vikings retreated back across the North Sea to northern Europe, leaving behind a few historical records of Scandinavian traders in the legends of the North American tribes they encountered.

Consider that the Vikings had far less distance to travel, with intermediate bases, and with far advanced seafaring technology to what the Egyptians had available (traveling 3-4X the distance with no intermediate bases), the colonization theory becomes unlikely at best.

Indeed, Native American populations did not just appear: The best information available is that they immigrated from Siberia via the Beiring Land Bridge during the great ice age approximately 40,000 years ago. This fits with many creation legends of the Eskimo, and this population would have easily filtered south into North, Central, and South America. This would also have been tens of thousands of years before the Great Pyramid of Giza was constructed, therefore cross polination of construction techniques could not be a possibility... unless "visitors" brought this knowledge.

Your remarks about the Dogon Tribe in Mali are totally inaccurate I am afraid. You equate the Dogon with the Egyptians in scientific knowledge: this is like comparing apples to coconuts. At the height of thier civilization, the Egyptians were working bronze, copper, and many other metals. They had great engineering and mathematical knowledge, and indeed had substantial astronomical information at thier fingertips. However, the Egyptians NEVER recorded any astronomical event or object that correlates to what the Dogon reported. Indeed, the Egyptians NEVER recorded any astronomical observations with the specific details that the Dogon mention.

The Dogon, to this day, live in a stone age society. They have no technology or mathematical skills that could possibly predict or interpret the specific details that they report. What proof do they have? They need none: Modern science provides the proof for them. The observations they report are proven, through modern direct observation to be 100% accurate. Indeed, the fact that Sirius has a supermassive companion with an orbital period of 50 years has only been learned in the past 10 years with the Hubble Space Telescope, the most advanced observation instrument that humanity has ever built. Yet it was described by the Dogon more than 100 years ago.

Regarding Telomeres: You mention that in the Bible, Adam, Noah, and Abraham lived extremely long lifetimes. I observe that all of these people were very significant biblical/religious figures. I also observe that in the event that Telomeres were somehow deactivated the lifespans you describe would be very possible and likely. With these facts in mind, I would refer you to my earlier arguement about possible alien "plants", IE, specific individuals, possibly genetically modified to deactivate thier telomeres, giving them long lifespans, making them appear "immortal" to the normal humans around them. These people would be entrusted with scientific knowledge and the ability to influence large numbers of people in order to help shape and control the social, religious and cultural development of the Humans.

You ask if aliens created humans, why resort to telomeres when a nuclear weapon would be well within thier means. I would refer you to the Bible, and the story of Sodom and Gommorah, and the modern Dead Sea. The Bible describes Sodom and Gommorah as being destroyed by a giant blast from the sky: in modern eyes, this sounds very much like a description of a nuclear detonation.

Archaeologists have narrowed the location of Sodom and Gomorrah to adjacent to the modern Dead Sea in Israel. The Dead Sea is very interesting, as the entire area is impregnated with very strange heavy metal compounds that are consistent with the detonation of a fusion weapon. (Radiation is not detected, but so much time has passed that any radioactive fallout would have decayed and no longer be detectable).

Illmatic, I hand the discussion back to you.



posted on Jun, 13 2003 @ 05:02 PM
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Up to this point this has been a very good debate, I'd think you'd agree. But I'm going to tell you this for your own benefit. Your responses have been very good, especially since you wrote 30% of it.


I'm sticking to my main argument: Evolution- the process of change to a higher state. I'm afraid you haven't proved yet that aliens seeded human life. All you've done was post really big words about this and that which really did happen, but it happened due to Evolution, not aliens. Prove aliens exist first.

Allah only created us. He didn't create another civilization. Allah sent us the prophets: Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc. They all share the same exact message. The existance of the ever living God. Whatever you want to call him: Yahweh, Elohim, Jah, or Allah. He's ONE. There has been many miracles done in the His Name. Whether scientific or healing miracles. It's been documented. You say the aliens planted something in the Prophets' to have them live longer? Well how about all the evil men in the world back then? They all lived long also, for example Nimrod.

The visitors from the sky can be anything. It can be Iblis himself (Satan)

"He was known as the king of the air" -ephesians 2:2

Let's not forget that Iblis was the smartest angel of God. He was the bringer of light.

Satan cannot live this earth. This earth is a closed dimension. Nothing extraordinairy can ever enter or leave earth. God will not allow it. For example let's look at the story of Job.

"One day the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan also came with them. Yahweh said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered Yahweh, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it." Job 1:6-8

Satan is living amongst us. He's on the earth right now. There is no hell. God will not allow him to leave this earth because Satan could've already.



posted on Jun, 14 2003 @ 12:33 AM
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Illmatic,

I would agree, this is a great debate so far, and you have been a wonderful opponent. Im not sure I understand your reference to my 30% posts, unless you mean the bulk of it consists of factual information and the remainder is my opinion (which would be about accurate
)

(Does that mean you are conceding some points? I certainly hope not, this debate is going much too well to end it prematurely!)

You wish to maintain your assertion that all human evolution is due to natural evolution? Well, that is certainly your perogative. I don't know of any statute that requires the mental acceptance of any given idea, regardless of how much supporting evidence is presented in the ideas favor. Therefore, you may certainly maintain your assertion as long as you wish!

I would however point out that I have shown(accurately) an obvious discrepancy in the genetic evolution of Homo Sapiens Sapiens, one that has been known of in the circles of anthropology, archaeology, and zoology for many years now, and is the subject of investigation as "one of the great mysteries of science".

I have shown that humanity began an accelerated route of evolution approximately 200,000 years ago, which is something that has NEVER happened in the fossil record, before or since, with ANY other species on the planet.

I have shown that this accelerated rate of evolution is totally anomalous, and indeed violates all established laws concerning natural evolution, as observed in all other species on the planet.

I have shown that humanity has undergone a significantly larger amount of evolution since our simultaneous split from "Lucy" than our closest genetic relative the Chimpanzee. If we were indeed progressing at a normal evolutionary rate, both humans and chimps would have evolved the same amount. We have evolved far more in the same amount of time.

I have shown just how little genetic manipulation is needed to create a very large phsyiological difference over an appropriate time scale. (Only 1% difference between humans and chimps... If that genetic difference were started 200,000 years ago, it would likely only take the modification of a couple of base pairs of DNA, not a complete reengineering)

I have shown that we humans, to this day, carry with us in our very being the legacy of this modification in an unnatural feature, the telomeres.

That is a large amount of proof right there. Indeed, in the abscence of performing a direct experiment in DNA, or commissioning an experienced microbiologist or geneticist to go through the Human Genome results with a fine tooth comb for other clues (which would likely resolve this dispute unequivocally) this is VERY convincing proof. Unfortunately, I doubt that Simon has enough of a budget associated with ATS to run such experiments or to commission such research.

I fear that you have posted little compelling evidence to refute the fact that human evolution has been abnormal in nature.

I also consider the Dogon mystery to be a very convincing point in support of aliens on earth in the past. Again, you have unfortunately posted little compelling evidence to refute this information.

I find it interesting that you bring up so much material associated with the creation of the world by God, Allah, or the One God. (I would point out that in scientific grounds, religion and evolutionary theory are mutually exclusive).

Ironically, when viewed through scientific eyes, your posts provide very clear evidence supporting the presence of aliens in prehistoric times, and may even provide proof of thier presence today.

Allah only created us. He didn't create another civilization. Allah sent us the prophets: Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc. Posted by Illmatic67

Indeed. What if we were to simply substitute an Alien intelligence for Allah? For the world, and even for your beliefs, it wouldnt change much, although it does change one important thing: who exactly created the human race.

Keep in mind, the genetic modifications leading to the creation of the human race took place LONG before these books were written, and even before the men who wrote them were born, or thier parents were born (although, thier existence was likely being planned, for just the reasons I am about to lay out for you)

(I guess, as a geologist, I have a slight advantage in this field, as geologists have already readjusted thier thinking to far longer timelines than most people have.)

Consider: If an Alien intelligence created the human race, and then wished to monitor its progress, as the human race advanced, the aliens would be interested in a way to influence and control our species. Because they would possess such advanced technology, and because the human race would be ignorant of technology, the advanced aliens would be looked upon as gods. This is the very beginning of the world we now have.

The aliens would likely seize upon this worship by the humans, and it would not take a great deal of imagination to see how they could find a very effective way of influencing and controlling the entire human race through thier own beliefs. It is what would now be termed a psyop (psychological operation).

The alien intelligence would easily put together a legend, ready made to be broadcast to the human race, a legend that would put them in a worshipped light, and allow the aliens to hand down wisdom as they saw fit, and to also hand down decrees that the humans would follow and obey.

Thus was born Yaweh, Allah, God, and a dozen other names. The consolidation of worship to a singular individual did much to concentrate the focus of human attention, and divert it away from other factors that may have led to an "enlightenment" of the humans about thier true origins.

Of course, the following of religions today is not a surprising event, considering that the religions were engineered from so long ago for that very purpose. I see that these alien intelligences likely had a sense of timelines similar to that of a geologist... they understood that thousands of years after such religions were established, they would be ingrained parts of human society, and as such, would be above questioning. The religions WOULD BE the truth, and any review of facts surrounding it would not be allowed.

Which of course is exactly what they intended to happen.

You say the aliens planted something in the Prophets' to have them live longer? Posted by Illmatic67

I do. I believe the evidence is there to show this to be fact. All of these people were very significant biblical people, all of them did much to expand and promote thier religions. All of them were reputed to have lived extended lifespans. As I previously argued, it would be a simple matter for the aliens to genetically modify an individual to deactivate thier telomeres, giving them a very long lifespan, and programming them to spread thier gospel far and wide (which is exactly what they did, as documented in the various religious records).

Let's not forget that Iblis was the smartest angel of God. He was the bringer of light. Posted by Illmatic67

I am particularly interested in this part. There are many writings indicating a "battle of the gods" in times past, which includes the use of weapons never before seen at the time, but are now recognized as weapons we now possess, such as nuclear weapons.

I find it very likely, in a long term, large scale project as this looks like, that some factionalization could develope among the alien groups. Perhaps Ilbis was a faction that decided to "enlighten/illuminate" the human race as to its actual origins, and explain that the alien intelligence was in fact a biological race, just as humans are.

As this action would naturally threaten the power structure that had been developed around the newly established religions, the alien intelligence would likely brand Ilbis as evil, forcing humans to not associate with him, discrediting him, and making humans not trust him.

It is interesting that the main thrust of this concept is to reject knowledge and not ask questions.

Of course, you are likely to ask, how else can I prove that aliens existed? Can I show you a physical example of thier presence here?

To this, I have to point out that governments across the planet have a long standing policy to prevent such information from being known or found by the general public.

Perhaps, this in itself is evidence of alien presence here, still, today? In order to conceal itself.



posted on Jun, 16 2003 @ 11:44 AM
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It seems your main argument is this 200,000 year span in which you claim the evolution process kicked into high gear. That's cool. It is indeed suspicious, it can even raise up some serious questions. Did aliens seed human life being the last of them, I'm afraid.

I want to look at this Ezekiel reference of yours. Please give me the exact chapter and verse so I can read it on my own. I believe it's there. But you have to understand the Book of Ezekiel to understand that he may have described an "alien spacecraft". The majority of the book is prophecies. Ezekiel has prophecies of the end times in this book. So, it's very possible that Ezekiel could just had been describing an object of the future, such as a shuttle or airplane.

Allah created man in his own image. It's very possible that angels of Allah could be aliens. It's possible. But if this were true remember: Allah is superior to his angels. Angels in Hebrew meaning Sons of God.

In the Bible it talks about the sons of God being attracted to the daughters of man and coming down from the heavens and mating with them. In the Bible it talks about chariots of fire in the sky, could that mean flying saucers. Indeed, the Bible could mention alien life. But in the Bible their not aliens, their angels.

"As they walked along and talking together, a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah was taken up to heaven a whirlwind." 2Kings 2:11

Could this be an alien abduction?

The point is we do not know what aliens are. We think aliens are things we see on TV and in Movies. Anything out of the ordinairy we call aliens and that's not accurate because it can be something more than an alien, possibly an angel.

Now this doesnt mean Allah is an alien because we can't even start to imagine what Allah is. He can be the Universe, Time, Gravity, or Light. We can only describe His total manifestation by capitalizing His title.

If aliens, or what we call aliens are angels than there's no way they seeded human life. Allah is superior to his angels.

This is clear when Allah cast Satan out of his presence when he disobeyed Allah's command. What did He tell Satan? He told them to bow down to Adam, His creation.

"Behold! We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam":
They bowed except Satan: he said, "Shall I bow to one whom You created from clay?"
He said, "Do You see? This is the one whom You haved honored above me! If You will but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway- all but a few!"

Allah said: "Go your way, if any of them follow, verily Hell will be the recompense of you all - an ample recompense"

Qur'an, Sura 17:61-63

So then Satan went to the Garden of Eden and you know the rest.



posted on Jun, 16 2003 @ 07:05 PM
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Unfortunately, I cannot find my personal copy of this book (The Spaceships of Ezekiel, by Joseph Blumrich): I believe a friend has had it for the past couple of years


However, the net is quite an easy place to find the material contained in this book, and I have done so for your perusal.

A few excerpts for you to investigate, and the link is a very complete summary of his work.

Because I had to rely on translations, I used six diferent bibles, ranging in time from early in the last century to 1972, edited by Jewish, Roman Catholic, and protestant translators. Besides these, I used two highly detailed biblical commentaries.

My application of aircraft (specifically, helicopter) and spacecraft engineering principles to the reports of the prophet resulted in the penetration of Ezekiel's visual descriptions, and the replacement of these by known structural configurations. The final result is shown by the drawing at the beginning of this paper. There we see a quasi-conical main body, supported by four helicopter units, which carries the command capsule atop its rounded upper portion. We should consider that Ezekiel first saw this vehicle at a distance of about 1,000 meters; at the moment the nuclear engine fired, probably with some white clouds of condensation (because of the engine's "chilldown" phase) shooting past the craft's main body.

In these fiery, dynamic surroundings Ezekiel notices the moving rotors, see the landing legs and mechanical arms attached to the helicopter units. His first reaction is to compare the helicopters with man-like figures, but he then finds in the term 'living creatures' an expression of admirable vagueness to reflect his uncertainty. During final decent and landing, Ezekiel observes the protective covers of the helicopter's gear mechanisms, which he able to describe best by comparing them with human faces. he notices the red-hot radiator -glowing coals- (Chapter 1, verse 13)

13. "As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning."

covering part of the lower central body; the prophet is fascinated by the wheels which, in their basic form, are the only element he recognizes and thus describes in great detail.

www.earthportals.com...

Allah created man in his own image. It's very possible that angels of Allah could be aliens. It's possible. But if this were true remember: Allah is superior to his angels.Posted by Illmatic67

I would agree with this in intent. In response to your referencing Allahs superiority over his angels, I do not see a discrepancy here... All evidence indicates some form of heirarchy in alien encounters, between the greys and the reptoids, as the most reported types. That would only be logical, and indeed, if these aliens did possess significant genetic engineering abilities for them to "design" a specific type of creature to a specific function. Therefore, if we substitute aliens in the place of Allah, there would likely be a "head alien" in charge of his subservient aliens...

In the Bible it talks about the sons of God being attracted to the daughters of man and coming down from the heavens and mating with them. Posted by Illmatic67

I would interpret this as the best discription that the authors at the time had for the obvious transfer of genetic information between aliens and humans.

Bible it talks about chariots of fire in the sky, could that mean flying saucers. Indeed, the Bible could mention alien life. But in the Bible their not aliens, their angels. Posted by Illmatic67

Again I would agree. Because early man had no true knowledge or concept of life outside of this earth, it would be difficult or impossible for any aliens to be described as being extraterrestrial. A description of "god" would be far easier and fitting in thier psyche.

Could this be an alien abduction? Posted by Illmatic67

Quite likely. There is no evidence to suggest that alien abduction is a new phenomenon, rather, due to the new openess with which it is discussed, those who have survived such experiences are more willing to discuss them.

I would point out that the abduction phenomenon fits the model of what we do with tracking "tagged" wildlife... it would be logical for aliens to come back periodically and see how thier creations were progressing.

If aliens, or what we call aliens are angels than there's no way they seeded human life. Allah is superior to his angels. Posted by Illmatic67

Allah (the head alien in this substitution), may not have personally created humanity, but then, most administrators are not the ones who do the actual hard work: they delegate. The Angles, or the subservient aliens, likely genetic scientists, were the ones to actually make the changes that created humanity, under directions from above.

They bowed except Satan: he said, "Shall I bow to one whom You created from clay?" Posted by Illmatic67

A direct biblical reference to Humanity being created from something the aliens found on the planet???



posted on Jun, 18 2003 @ 09:57 AM
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Illmatic67 must post soon or face default



posted on Jun, 18 2003 @ 10:14 AM
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Nice link. I read the passage in the Bible about Ezekiel's spacecraft.

Now, tell me exactly why this proves the theory that aliens seeded human life?



posted on Jun, 18 2003 @ 05:43 PM
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Now, tell me exactly why this proves the theory that aliens seeded human life? Posted by Illmatic67

This proves the early prehistoric and historic presence of aliens on our planet, with interraction with humans.

The example you cited about sons of the angles/gods (aliens) interacting with the daughters of man is a clear reference to the sharing of genetic information between aliens and humans.

The still unresolved Dogon mystery certainly provides proof even in prehistoric realms that aliens were present and in contact with early humans.

I have already shown evidence for the abnormal pattern of human evolution as compared to every other life form to appear in the fossil record. I have also shown evidence of a genetic anomaly present in the human genetic code, and the purposes for its being present.

It is not a great logical leap to connect these facts into a seamless setting whereby at about 200,000 years in the past the human race as a species underwent some kind of genetic manipulation which resulted in a very sudden, extreme genetic shift, and accelerated development into Homo Sapiens Sapiens.



posted on Jun, 21 2003 @ 07:41 PM
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dragonrider and I are ready for our closing statements. William gave us permission to give our closing statements early so here I go.

This has been a great debate, I enjoyed every single part of it.

Aliens could not have seeded human life. There is no proof of such theory. We dont even know for sure that aliens even exist, except for a couple strong faithful followers of the Raelian Movement.

I would like to say it was Evolution that kicked into high gear, therefore accelerating the human development process.

There's no proof that says aliens didnt seed us, but there's also no evidence to say they did.



posted on Jun, 21 2003 @ 07:59 PM
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Closing Statements

I would agree this has been a great debate, and I found it to be an honor to debate an opponent like Illmatic67. I would like to debate you again on another topic sometime.

I have shown that the human race did not evolve in the same manner as any other known lifeform in the fossil record. I have shown that an anomaly exists in the human chain of evolution that has not been explained by normal science. I have also shown that genetic advancement of the human species is proceeding at a far more rapid pace than anything else in the fossil record. The best explaination for this anomaly is the intervention of an outside influence on our genetic structure. Considering physical and technical requirements to make such an anomaly in a species genetic makeup, the only possibility is the presence of an alien intelligence in prehistoric times, approximately 200,000 years ago.

I have also shown that a genetic anomaly exists and is still currently present in our genetic makeup, the telomeres. I have shown that it should not be there, and what the effects are if it were not present. I have also shown that this is most likely a safety device in our genetic makeup installed by an alien intelligence to moderate our advancement.

I have shown in numerous examples the presence of alien technology in our prehistory and even in our recorded history. I have also shown the likelihood of the influence of alien intelligence in the advancement of our history, culture, and society based on interaction with genetically modified, highly educated biblical/religious figures, acting as "plants" for the alien intelligence.

I have shown that very specific knowledge of astronomical events exist with stone age people with no possibility of learning this information through any modern source, but has been corroborated recently with modern technology. The only explaination for this transfer of astronomical information is the early interaction of these peoples with highly advanced aliens.

Upon preponderance of this evidence, it is clear that the human race did not evolve naturally through normal evolutionary means. It is clear that the human race evolved at an abnormal speed, and this could only be caused by the interaction of alien beings in the far prehistory.



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