ATS Debate: Round 1: Dragonrider vs. Illmatic67, page 1

Illmatic,

I wouldn't worry too much about your delay in posting on the debate. Due to the vicious DOS attack suffered by ATS, I think all debates are now at least 24 hours behind schedule. Besides that, I would never begrudge someone for running late due to thier graduation. (Illmatic, congratulations on graduating, and continuing on the next great step in life. May your life only continue onwards and upwards!

)

And with that, onwards and upwards we go:

Your explaination for the differences in human evolution over the past 200,000 years is interesting, but I fear inaccurate. If you assertion, that evolution in higher organisms naturally accelerates as these organisms advance were correct, there is a simple experimental model that would prove it.

"Lucy" (Australopithicus Afarensis) is considered the split point in evolution between what later became Homo Sapiens Sapiens (modern man) and mans closest genetic relative, the Chimpanzee. After the conclusion of the Human Genome Project, it was discovered that humans differed genetically from the Chimpanzee by approximately 1%. (Kind of scary to consider that such a small amount of genetic difference represents such a huge physiological difference.... it also serves to show just how little artificial genetic manipulation is needed to successfully spark intelligent evolution, leading to modern man)

Likewise, it has been found that modern Homo Sapiens Sapiens differs from Australopithicus by approximately the same amount or slightly more, less than 2% genetically.

The genetic difference between Australopithicus and Chimpanzee is far smaller, approximately one tenth of one percent. Essentially, Chimpanzee is just a step and a sneeze away from "Lucy", genetically speaking.

If your assertion were correct, that evolution of humans were natural, the evolution on both branches after "Lucy" should be equivalent, and the genetic difference between both Human and Chimpanzee from Australopithicus should be about the same.

Its not.

Regarding the scientific facts contained in both the Bible and the al Qur'an you cite, you are correct, at least in that scientific activities are described therein that are only today being found through modern science to be scientific in nature. Indeed, much of what is described in both books are being found to be nothing more than true science and technology, as described through the eyes of men who didnt understand this technology, and were at a loss as to how to correctly describe what they saw. Ironically, this significantly strengthens the arguement for prehistoric influence by aliens.

In the words of Arthur C. Clarke "Any sufficiently advanced technology would appear to be indistinguishable from magic."

A classic example is found in the Book of Ezekial, in the Bible. Indeed, so much controversy surrounded this book that a Nasa spacecraft engineer took it apart passage by passage in an attempt to debunk the theories of prehistoric aliens described in the Bible. After months of research on the subject, this Nasa scientist found that Ezekial was, to the best of his ability, describing a totally technological space craft of very defined abilities. This scientist went so far as to produce an engineering report, based on descriptions in Ezekial, that described a spacecraft, apparently nuclear powered, capable of both atmospheric and orbital flight, with further deductions on the crew, flight characteristics, potential mission profiles, and comparison to modern spaceflight technology (estimated to be approximately 150 years advanced from space technology at the time this book was written, which was in the 1970s).

You mention how much knowledge the Prophet Muhammad held regarding much natural science: is it not beyond possibility, that perhaps Muhammed was one of the aliens, or at least one of the trusted few humans entrusted with specific scientific knowledge by the aliens, in order to influence human social and religious development?

You mention that Allah is ONE god... but, if indeed aliens were to modify our very being for unknown purposes, and wished to maintain some control over the development of our social and cultural structures, would it not be logical to "plant" individuals with the ability to influence large numbers of people with great wisdom and scientific knowledge, in order to start and guide social and religious movements? (Yes, that does open the possibility that Muhammed, Jesus, and Buddah among other significant religious figures were aliens or "plants")

In answer to your question regarding why do the Raelians borrow so much from Christianity and Islam? Simply because they understand that a large number of thier recruits or converts will come from the large religions, and therefore borrowing certain aspects of each that fits with thier ideology will make conversion of new members easier.

Regarding the Mayan and Olmec pyramids, you mention the "colonization" theory, that certain seafaring Mediterranian civilizations managed to cross the oceans and influence large aborigional populations. This is a theory that has been floated in anthropological and archaeological circles for years: The general consensus in these same circles for this theory is that it may have occurred on a very sporadic basis, with very limited, if any, interraction with indiginous populations, certainly not on a scale that would seriously influence the host populations to build using the same technology and technique as used in Egypt.

The only real evidence we have regarding the "colonization" theory is the crossing of the North Sea by the Vikings, and establishing small bases in Greenland, Newfoundland, and Nova Scotia. The outcome of this was a very short lived trading empire with the Vikings, which eventually collapsed and the Vikings retreated back across the North Sea to northern Europe, leaving behind a few historical records of Scandinavian traders in the legends of the North American tribes they encountered.

Consider that the Vikings had far less distance to travel, with intermediate bases, and with far advanced seafaring technology to what the Egyptians had available (traveling 3-4X the distance with no intermediate bases), the colonization theory becomes unlikely at best.

Indeed, Native American populations did not just appear: The best information available is that they immigrated from Siberia via the Beiring Land Bridge during the great ice age approximately 40,000 years ago. This fits with many creation legends of the Eskimo, and this population would have easily filtered south into North, Central, and South America. This would also have been tens of thousands of years before the Great Pyramid of Giza was constructed, therefore cross polination of construction techniques could not be a possibility... unless "visitors" brought this knowledge.

Your remarks about the Dogon Tribe in Mali are totally inaccurate I am afraid. You equate the Dogon with the Egyptians in scientific knowledge: this is like comparing apples to coconuts. At the height of thier civilization, the Egyptians were working bronze, copper, and many other metals. They had great engineering and mathematical knowledge, and indeed had substantial astronomical information at thier fingertips. However, the Egyptians NEVER recorded any astronomical event or object that correlates to what the Dogon reported. Indeed, the Egyptians NEVER recorded any astronomical observations with the specific details that the Dogon mention.

The Dogon, to this day, live in a stone age society. They have no technology or mathematical skills that could possibly predict or interpret the specific details that they report. What proof do they have? They need none: Modern science provides the proof for them. The observations they report are proven, through modern direct observation to be 100% accurate. Indeed, the fact that Sirius has a supermassive companion with an orbital period of 50 years has only been learned in the past 10 years with the Hubble Space Telescope, the most advanced observation instrument that humanity has ever built. Yet it was described by the Dogon more than 100 years ago.

Regarding Telomeres: You mention that in the Bible, Adam, Noah, and Abraham lived extremely long lifetimes. I observe that all of these people were very significant biblical/religious figures. I also observe that in the event that Telomeres were somehow deactivated the lifespans you describe would be very possible and likely. With these facts in mind, I would refer you to my earlier arguement about possible alien "plants", IE, specific individuals, possibly genetically modified to deactivate thier telomeres, giving them long lifespans, making them appear "immortal" to the normal humans around them. These people would be entrusted with scientific knowledge and the ability to influence large numbers of people in order to help shape and control the social, religious and cultural development of the Humans.

You ask if aliens created humans, why resort to telomeres when a nuclear weapon would be well within thier means. I would refer you to the Bible, and the story of Sodom and Gommorah, and the modern Dead Sea. The Bible describes Sodom and Gommorah as being destroyed by a giant blast from the sky: in modern eyes, this sounds very much like a description of a nuclear detonation.

Archaeologists have narrowed the location of Sodom and Gomorrah to adjacent to the modern Dead Sea in Israel. The Dead Sea is very interesting, as the entire area is impregnated with very strange heavy metal compounds that are consistent with the detonation of a fusion weapon. (Radiation is not detected, but so much time has passed that any radioactive fallout would have decayed and no longer be detectable).

Illmatic, I hand the discussion back to you.

Illmatic,

I would agree, this is a great debate so far, and you have been a wonderful opponent. Im not sure I understand your reference to my 30% posts, unless you mean the bulk of it consists of factual information and the remainder is my opinion (which would be about accurate

)

(Does that mean you are conceding some points? I certainly hope not, this debate is going much too well to end it prematurely!)

You wish to maintain your assertion that all human evolution is due to natural evolution? Well, that is certainly your perogative. I don't know of any statute that requires the mental acceptance of any given idea, regardless of how much supporting evidence is presented in the ideas favor. Therefore, you may certainly maintain your assertion as long as you wish!

I would however point out that I have shown(accurately) an obvious discrepancy in the genetic evolution of Homo Sapiens Sapiens, one that has been known of in the circles of anthropology, archaeology, and zoology for many years now, and is the subject of investigation as "one of the great mysteries of science".

I have shown that humanity began an accelerated route of evolution approximately 200,000 years ago, which is something that has NEVER happened in the fossil record, before or since, with ANY other species on the planet.

I have shown that this accelerated rate of evolution is totally anomalous, and indeed violates all established laws concerning natural evolution, as observed in all other species on the planet.

I have shown that humanity has undergone a significantly larger amount of evolution since our simultaneous split from "Lucy" than our closest genetic relative the Chimpanzee. If we were indeed progressing at a normal evolutionary rate, both humans and chimps would have evolved the same amount. We have evolved far more in the same amount of time.

I have shown just how little genetic manipulation is needed to create a very large phsyiological difference over an appropriate time scale. (Only 1% difference between humans and chimps... If that genetic difference were started 200,000 years ago, it would likely only take the modification of a couple of base pairs of DNA, not a complete reengineering)

I have shown that we humans, to this day, carry with us in our very being the legacy of this modification in an unnatural feature, the telomeres.

That is a large amount of proof right there. Indeed, in the abscence of performing a direct experiment in DNA, or commissioning an experienced microbiologist or geneticist to go through the Human Genome results with a fine tooth comb for other clues (which would likely resolve this dispute unequivocally) this is VERY convincing proof. Unfortunately, I doubt that Simon has enough of a budget associated with ATS to run such experiments or to commission such research.

I fear that you have posted little compelling evidence to refute the fact that human evolution has been abnormal in nature.

I also consider the Dogon mystery to be a very convincing point in support of aliens on earth in the past. Again, you have unfortunately posted little compelling evidence to refute this information.

I find it interesting that you bring up so much material associated with the creation of the world by God, Allah, or the One God. (I would point out that in scientific grounds, religion and evolutionary theory are mutually exclusive).

Ironically, when viewed through scientific eyes, your posts provide very clear evidence supporting the presence of aliens in prehistoric times, and may even provide proof of thier presence today.

Allah only created us. He didn't create another civilization. Allah sent us the prophets: Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc. Posted by Illmatic67

Indeed. What if we were to simply substitute an Alien intelligence for Allah? For the world, and even for your beliefs, it wouldnt change much, although it does change one important thing: who exactly created the human race.

Keep in mind, the genetic modifications leading to the creation of the human race took place LONG before these books were written, and even before the men who wrote them were born, or thier parents were born (although, thier existence was likely being planned, for just the reasons I am about to lay out for you)

(I guess, as a geologist, I have a slight advantage in this field, as geologists have already readjusted thier thinking to far longer timelines than most people have.)

Consider: If an Alien intelligence created the human race, and then wished to monitor its progress, as the human race advanced, the aliens would be interested in a way to influence and control our species. Because they would possess such advanced technology, and because the human race would be ignorant of technology, the advanced aliens would be looked upon as gods. This is the very beginning of the world we now have.

The aliens would likely seize upon this worship by the humans, and it would not take a great deal of imagination to see how they could find a very effective way of influencing and controlling the entire human race through thier own beliefs. It is what would now be termed a psyop (psychological operation).

The alien intelligence would easily put together a legend, ready made to be broadcast to the human race, a legend that would put them in a worshipped light, and allow the aliens to hand down wisdom as they saw fit, and to also hand down decrees that the humans would follow and obey.

Thus was born Yaweh, Allah, God, and a dozen other names. The consolidation of worship to a singular individual did much to concentrate the focus of human attention, and divert it away from other factors that may have led to an "enlightenment" of the humans about thier true origins.

Of course, the following of religions today is not a surprising event, considering that the religions were engineered from so long ago for that very purpose. I see that these alien intelligences likely had a sense of timelines similar to that of a geologist... they understood that thousands of years after such religions were established, they would be ingrained parts of human society, and as such, would be above questioning. The religions WOULD BE the truth, and any review of facts surrounding it would not be allowed.

Which of course is exactly what they intended to happen.

You say the aliens planted something in the Prophets' to have them live longer? Posted by Illmatic67

I do. I believe the evidence is there to show this to be fact. All of these people were very significant biblical people, all of them did much to expand and promote thier religions. All of them were reputed to have lived extended lifespans. As I previously argued, it would be a simple matter for the aliens to genetically modify an individual to deactivate thier telomeres, giving them a very long lifespan, and programming them to spread thier gospel far and wide (which is exactly what they did, as documented in the various religious records).

Let's not forget that Iblis was the smartest angel of God. He was the bringer of light. Posted by Illmatic67

I am particularly interested in this part. There are many writings indicating a "battle of the gods" in times past, which includes the use of weapons never before seen at the time, but are now recognized as weapons we now possess, such as nuclear weapons.

I find it very likely, in a long term, large scale project as this looks like, that some factionalization could develope among the alien groups. Perhaps Ilbis was a faction that decided to "enlighten/illuminate" the human race as to its actual origins, and explain that the alien intelligence was in fact a biological race, just as humans are.

As this action would naturally threaten the power structure that had been developed around the newly established religions, the alien intelligence would likely brand Ilbis as evil, forcing humans to not associate with him, discrediting him, and making humans not trust him.

It is interesting that the main thrust of this concept is to reject knowledge and not ask questions.

Of course, you are likely to ask, how else can I prove that aliens existed? Can I show you a physical example of thier presence here?

To this, I have to point out that governments across the planet have a long standing policy to prevent such information from being known or found by the general public.

Perhaps, this in itself is evidence of alien presence here, still, today? In order to conceal itself.