It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Russia Inadvertently Posts Its Casualties In Ukraine: 2,000 Deaths, 3,200 Disabled

page: 3
25
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 30 2015 @ 01:25 PM
link   

originally posted by: stumason


"Officially" neither one sent anything. That is the point of the entire debate.


They have, with the admission they are paying the soldiers for being there and paying them/their families if they are injured or killed.


Source? You are simply believing that this is sourced. Russian soldiers have to leave the army and join as volunteers. We know it's probably not like this, but we also know the coup was supported by USA.


Russian regulars have been caught inside Ukraine. Russian weapon systems only available to the Russian Army have been observed in Ukraine and Russia is paying those soldiers who fight...


Again, heresay, some propaganda here and there.


In a vote which took place after Russian troops swarmed the peninsula, a vote which has not been recognised by any other nation around the world, a vote which took place under occupation and a vote in which


Russian troops were already in the peninsula since, you know, there is a base. Still a vote nonetheless.


Do you?


I do, but nobody seems to care about the difference between propaganda and real evidence. So if you play the game that a faction heresays are facts then I don't see why you have to not admit the other faction propaganda as fact.
You are just treating this conflict like a football match where taking a side is independent of any fact.

The USA/NATO is most probably responsible for the raise of tension to have an excuse to impose sanctions on Russia and cut the supply of gas in Europe, Germany in primis. Together with the Arab Spring and the massive outflow of immigrants this puts a lot of pressure on all european countries, probably to "convince" them on signing the TTIP and support the Quatari pipe and at the same time weakingn Assad's ally.

But you seem to be convinced that the anglo-american empire is just here like an ONG devoted to save the world. In that case you need real facts because the narrative doesn't support at all this view. There are big interests behind and your warmongering isn't going to solve anything. Nor to mention that this whole story raised support for Putin in Europe when he was at an all-time low.
edit on 30 8 2015 by Mastronaut because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 30 2015 @ 01:54 PM
link   
a reply to: Mastronaut




"Officially" neither one sent anything. That is the point of the entire debate.


Well that's because the US hasn't, and Russia thinks the world can't see the truth...and the debate is about the number of casualties from Ukraine, so where does the US come in to play here?

Is the US killing those soldiers in Ukraine?



Again, heresay, some propaganda here and there.


And confessions from the Russian troops caught.


one of the prisoners gave his name as Alexander Alexandrov. He said he had been on a spying mission in Ukraine as part of a 14-member special forces group from the Russian town of Togliatti.


www.reuters.com...

And the separatists have admitted to the Russian military being involved in Ukraine...

news.vice.com...



The USA/NATO is most probably responsible for the raise of tension to have an excuse to impose sanctions on Russia and cut the supply of gas in Europe,


Do you know much about this conflict and the reason it happened?

Seems you may not. And just so you know it was the EU and not NATO that imposed sanctions.



But you seem to be convinced that the anglo-american empire is just here like an ONG devoted to save the world. In that case you need real facts because the narrative doesn't support at all this view. There are big interests behind and your warmongering isn't going to solve anything. Nor to mention that this whole story raised support for Putin in Europe when he was at an all-time low.


Who's believing the propaganda now...

The only support in Europe he has is from the far right...not really something to write home about.



posted on Aug, 30 2015 @ 02:40 PM
link   
a reply to: Mastronaut




Source? You are simply believing that this is sourced. Russian soldiers have to leave the army and join as volunteers.


Here from the mother of a dead Russian soldier who didn't volunteer and was not discharged before he went to Ukraine...


The official denial of Russian military participation in Ukraine has pressured the relatives of those who served and died there to keep silent, and could deprive many of them of the benefits to which they are entitled. But some have started to speak out.

Yelena Tumanova, a hospital orderly from Russia’s Mari El republic, said her son Anton Tumanov told her by phone on 10 August that his army unit was being sent to Donetsk. On 20 August, a coffin came back to Mari El with a small window through which she could see his face. His legs had been torn off by an artillery strike, his comrades told her. He was 20 years old.


And then we have this...


The “volunteer” service Putin referred to is often anything but, according to several rights advocates. They say soldiers have told them that they were pressured to sign documents to go on a “business trip” to eastern Ukraine or “volunteer” in other ways. Tumanov told his mother that his commanders offered a 400,000-rouble bonus to sign up to fight in Ukraine, then simply ordered them forward when volunteers weren’t forthcoming. Some captured Russian paratroopers recounted that they had gone on a supposed training mission in armoured carriers and only later realised they were in Ukraine.


www.theguardian.com...



Russian troops were already in the peninsula since, you know, there is a base. Still a vote nonetheless.


With no more than 25000 allowed to be there...


5) The Russian navy is allowed up to 25,000 troops,


www.rt.com...

And yet they had troops from different entities of the Russian military...that weren't stationed at the Black Sea base.


The forces that were used in the operation represent some of the most elite units in the Russian military, including GRU (military intelligence) Special Forces, airborne units, and naval infantry. Of these, only the last is regularly based in Sevastopol.


warontherocks.com...

So where did those other troops come from if they weren't stationed there?

As for the vote...Russia already showed it was a farce, and the vote really didn't matter since Putin was going to annex it anyways. The vote was just a put on to back the reason they annexed Crimea.



posted on Aug, 30 2015 @ 03:32 PM
link   
Are we still pretending we do not know Russian troops are being sent into Ukraine. Despite the fact that Russian troops captured in Ukraine have said they were sent without even being told, along with the units and families of units sent being told to stop talking about it and entire units up deserting when they felt they were being forced to go. At this point the Russian government barely puts any effort into that illusion anymore.

And if all this was an American backed coup then why does the rest of the World not buy it? Russians own friends do not support Russia in this matter, are they controlled by the US as well? Surely China and Iran would raising the issue if they thought that this wall a US plot and the poor Russians were just reacting. And of course neutral states like Sweden and Finland would have nothing to fear from Russia because it was the US that started the trouble in the Ukraine. Why do they seem so nervous? Russia closest ally Belarus also seems under the US spell because it is not backing Russia either. Seems just a bit odd but, surely it all must be the fault of the US.



posted on Aug, 30 2015 @ 03:51 PM
link   
a reply to: tsurfer2000h

The mother of a guy who said Putin wasn't going to send them there... and some more heresay. Where's a proof?
Did you care to check the list that the guardian provided? Did you check the map? Did you check the names?
openrussia.info

We know there are russians that volunteered to go there and guess what? Most if not all were military. Do you think that they were stopped at the border to ask if they resigned?

Also, I can't translate this map, can you please tell me how many are the ones in the ukrainian territory?

So there are no US military in Ukraine or there are, but they aren't actively fighting (officially) but just training them?

Let's be clear, I don't have any problem to believe that Putin is pushing people to go there. "Officially" is a different thing, you have to demonstrate it to make it a fact. It's "I believe" vs "you believe", and it's a circular argument because there is nothing certain at all.
And to think that the EU pushed for sanctions is just laughable. Are you really this ingenuous or you are playing a part?

We are derailing in the usual debate about this however, which is a dead horse. Each of us has the anectodal evidence to make up an opinion, no official documents from both side can confirm anything.

Let's go back on track to the topic. Why is the western media quoting as fact the alleged censorship of an unsourced doubtful russian media outlet, not forgetting to say "Russia" not "Russian site"?
Shouldn't they just put it as is (ie an opinion or anecdote)? Are you ok with it just because other media backed this up without any more research?



posted on Aug, 30 2015 @ 04:02 PM
link   

originally posted by: MrSpad
Are we still pretending we do not know Russian troops are being sent into Ukraine.


No, we know, but we have to believe the Ukrainian fascist government since Russia is not officially there.


And if all this was an American backed coup then why does the rest of the World not buy it?

You mean the puppet states in Europe? Ask the people what they think and follow the money.


Russians own friends do not support Russia in this matter, are they controlled by the US as well? Surely China and Iran would raising the issue if they thought that this wall a US plot and the poor Russians were just reacting. And of course neutral states like Sweden and Finland would have nothing to fear from Russia because it was the US that started the trouble in the Ukraine. Why do they seem so nervous? Russia closest ally Belarus also seems under the US spell because it is not backing Russia either. Seems just a bit odd but, surely it all must be the fault of the US.


You mean something like this? Or like this?
Every country who doesn't support the USA is going to risk a coup, they are much more concerned about NATO actions rather than Russian actions tbh. I don't know how this isn't striking given that Russia isn't the Soviet Russia of the old days while the US is the same one that recently:
- attacked Afghanistan (and heroin spiked at 90%)
- attacked Iraq with false accusations (proved)
- supported "moderate" rebels in Syria that gassed civils
- supported the arab spring
- invaded Lybia (cause Ghaddafi wanted a Dinar based on gold)

I'm sorry I do not see the same interests on both sides. No I'm not playing the same game as you guys, I know Russia is supporting rebels with any possible mean without going official. But for you to think the US is just here to help is honestly just laughable.



posted on Aug, 30 2015 @ 06:36 PM
link   
a reply to: Mastronaut

www.telegraph.co.uk...

That link isn't working but here is more on the same thing...


East Ukrainian pro-Russian separatist leader Alexander Zakharchenko said serving Russian soldiers, on leave from their posts, are fighting Ukrainian troops alongside the rebels, Russian state television reported.
"Among us are fighting serving soldiers, who would rather take their vacation not on a beach but with us, among brothers, who are fighting for their freedom," said Zakharchenko in an interview posted on Vesti.ru, the Internet site of a Russian state television station.


www.themoscowtimes.com...



We know there are russians that volunteered to go there and guess what? Most if not all were military.


And we know there are those called volunteers and there are those who aren't volunteers...they are Russian active duty troops.


Separatist fighter admits Russian tanks, troops 'decisive in eastern Ukraine battles'
Head of rebel special forces detachment says regular army units from Russia play key role in victories



The Kremlin denies sending men and military vehicles to fight in Ukraine, but Dmitry Sapozhnikov told the BBC that regular army units sent from Russia and commanded by Russian officers were key in seizing the strategic town of Debaltseve in February.



But “all operations, especially large-scale ones, are led by Russian officers, by Russian generals,” he said in an interview with the BBC. “They develop plans together with our commanders ... and then we fulfil the orders.”


www.telegraph.co.uk... es.html



"Officially" is a different thing, you have to demonstrate it to make it a fact.


Having Russian soldiers that admit to being there, and those who refuse to go demonstrates enough to make it a fact.



And to think that the EU pushed for sanctions is just laughable. Are you really this ingenuous or you are playing a part?


Are you saying they didn't?



Each of us has the anectodal evidence to make up an opinion, no official documents from both side can confirm anything.


When you have Russian soldiers admitting to being in Ukraine is better than an official document. And it has been confirmed Russian troops are in Ukraine fighting...in fact I linked to just one of those admissions above.


edit on 30-8-2015 by tsurfer2000h because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 30 2015 @ 06:56 PM
link   
a reply to: Mastronaut




very country who doesn't support the USA is going to risk a coup, they are much more concerned about NATO actions rather than Russian actions tbh. I don't know how this isn't striking given that Russia isn't the Soviet Russia of the old days while the US is the same one that recently:
- attacked Afghanistan (and heroin spiked at 90%)
- attacked Iraq with false accusations (proved)
- supported "moderate" rebels in Syria that gassed civils
- supported the arab spring
- invaded Lybia (cause Ghaddafi wanted a Dinar based on gold)


Amazing how you turned this into a bash the US type thread...I guess it was to be expected.

Blame the US for all the worlds problems.



posted on Sep, 1 2015 @ 04:09 PM
link   

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Mastronaut




very country who doesn't support the USA is going to risk a coup, they are much more concerned about NATO actions rather than Russian actions tbh. I don't know how this isn't striking given that Russia isn't the Soviet Russia of the old days while the US is the same one that recently:
- attacked Afghanistan (and heroin spiked at 90%)
- attacked Iraq with false accusations (proved)
- supported "moderate" rebels in Syria that gassed civils
- supported the arab spring
- invaded Lybia (cause Ghaddafi wanted a Dinar based on gold)


Amazing how you turned this into a bash the US type thread...I guess it was to be expected.

Blame the US for all the worlds problems.


How can you deny what he posted?



posted on Sep, 1 2015 @ 04:40 PM
link   
a reply to: Whereismypassword

no-one denied it - someone pointed out that this thread is about Russian imperialism, not US imperialism.

IMO neither are acceptable, and one does not excuse the other.



posted on Sep, 1 2015 @ 04:51 PM
link   
I want this all to end, I want peace. Something about this makes me feel really badly for everyone involved. We only know about these reports but how many others as well? How many deaths and disfigurements before it all finds resolution or breaks into a full blown catastrophic event? We are all humans, and our souls have been and will continue to be all races. Russian come back as Ukrainian,Ukrainian come back as Russian, it is a cycle of no end.



posted on Sep, 1 2015 @ 05:08 PM
link   
a reply to: Whereismypassword

How he did it? Starting with an accusation he finished him off with full rabulistic hyperbole, rather exemplarily though. But... you know, who cares about Chechen terrorists in Ukraine if one can safely assume an official meddling with internal affaires on Putins behalf instead?

We are the good and they are all just pure evil, especially when they dare to fight the IS in Syria without our blessings.

Sandbox, toys, MINE!



Exclusive: As rightists riot in Ukraine – killing three policemen in a protest against making any concessions to ethnic Russians in the east – The New York Times had to move nimbly to again foist all the blame on Russia’s President Putin, but the Times was up to the propaganda task, writes Robert Parry.

Robert Parry




posted on Sep, 2 2015 @ 12:14 PM
link   
why is this not in the hoax bin?

the media who presented this had printed a retraction. the very next day!



posted on Sep, 2 2015 @ 05:17 PM
link   

originally posted by: letscit
why is this not in the hoax bin?

the media who presented this had printed a retraction. the very next day!


Link to the retraction?

From what I saw nothing was retracted. The information in question was removed, most likely at the behest of the Kremlin.
edit on 2-9-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2015 @ 05:23 PM
link   
a reply to: Xcathdra

Forbes have updated their article to note claims the info is false, but conclude:


The Russian censors have removed the incriminating information. The Kremlin will claim claims that the webcached material is a forgery. The figures, however, make sense and align with what should be obvious to all: Russian troops are in east Ukraine and are being supplied with heavy weapons by Russia.



posted on Sep, 2 2015 @ 06:54 PM
link   

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
a reply to: Xcathdra

Forbes have updated their article to note claims the info is false, but conclude:


The Russian censors have removed the incriminating information. The Kremlin will claim claims that the webcached material is a forgery. The figures, however, make sense and align with what should be obvious to all: Russian troops are in east Ukraine and are being supplied with heavy weapons by Russia.




Of course they conclude it makes sense, because that`s what we should believe being the case.



posted on Sep, 2 2015 @ 08:18 PM
link   
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Or because it makes sense...unlike your post.



posted on Sep, 2 2015 @ 08:47 PM
link   
a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

So everything else in the article is valid except for the section that would show the Kremlin is lying about what they are doing in Ukraine...



posted on Sep, 3 2015 @ 12:47 AM
link   

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Or because it makes sense...unlike your post.



Propaganda doesn`t have to make sense, it only needs to repeat certain fallacies.

Fake Report on “Russian Soldier Deaths” in Ukraine “Sets the Western Media on Fire”



posted on Sep, 3 2015 @ 01:28 AM
link   

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
Propaganda doesn`t have to make sense, it only needs to repeat certain fallacies.


Like no Russian troops in Ukraine?
Like Russia claiming they aren't sending military aid (lethal) to Pro Russian forces?
Like Putin claiming there were no Russian forces among those without insignias when they invaded Crimea?


ETA - Welcome back.
edit on 3-9-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)




top topics



 
25
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join