UK net migration hits record high of 330,000 this year

a reply to: ComplexCassandra

Dear oh dear. You've missed the point. I want my tax pounds to the good of this country and it's peoples first. Not quite sure how we made it to rockets and bombs.

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: MrCrow
a reply to: gortex

This is a topic that I can see there's no end to - I certainly don't have any answers as to how to resolve the situation other than rather draconian methodology.

The only way we will change this situation is by changing the countries these people are running from.

People can rant and scream about this all they like, nothing is going to change until the countries these people are fleeing are secure and can offer them a good quality of life.

These people are not running away from a good job, a nice house in a nice street with a nice community around them. Why would they need to risk their lives and the lives of their children to flee the country of their birth if this was all about "handouts" as the most ignorant racists and xenophobes want to claim.

These are people who have not left their home cities and villages all their lives, they are terrified of what will happen to them if they stay.

Now, with the spread of technology, these people can see how others live and they want that for themselves and their kids, and they HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO WANT THAT.

If we were all born in one of these places, and we were facing a life of poverty for our kids, the daily risk of militants coming in and killing you to kidnap your daughters and murder your sons, and you knew that a few hundred miles away there was a place where people didn't live in fear and could get a nice job and provide for the family, you would ALL BE DOING THE SAME THING.

We need to stop painting these people as being an invading enemy. We are becoming what we fought against in ww2 and people don't even know it. The dehumanization of these people is sickening and it needs to stop. These are not criminals, they are not lesser Humans, they are not rodents or roaches - these are the ways people are describing other Humans right now in the tabloid trash rags and it makes me want to vomit.

Again, nothing is going to change unless we change the countries these people are running away from. Eventually we will be forced into doing it when the numbers running into safety from these hell holes reaches a truly impossible number. There are millions more people in these countries now looking at what others are doing and how they are getting to places like Germany and they too want that life, and why shouldn't they want that?

The question shouldn't be how do we deal with these people, the question should be how do we help these people so they don't need to run from their homes in the first place.

True my friend but. A plan has to be forthcoming from our great leaders. We have Iraq, Syria, Libya and Afghanistan . We have Eritrea, Nigeria and other troubled North African countries from where some want or need to escape. We have The Balkans, Kosovo and Albania especially, from which many have left or want to leave. We ( UK ) have had fingers sometimes dirty fingers in all these pies in some ways but best of luck with grand ideas of Change. ( look at Russia and Ukraine ) ( Look at Serbian aggression after the demise of Yugoslavia ) What a pickle indeed.

originally posted by: MrCrow
a reply to: intrptr

Of course I'd get into that line. If (and I hope never does) that situation arises, then I would expect that the amount of tax and NI I've contributed to the country over the (many) years would pay out, as it were.

That's not how it works.
You're imagining the social support systems we have to be nothing more than a personal savings account, and that's entirely wrong. This is about helping OTHERS as well as yourself.

It's what we typically see from American's who reject the notion of CONTRIBUTING to the society around them.

The reality is that before we had a social security system where we help each other, there was mass poverty, mass disease, and we were spending more money on cleaning up that mess than we would on supporting those people to get out of that situation.

Again, this is not about getting out what you put in, this is about contributing to the stability of the society you live in.

a reply to: Rocker2013

I have only one reply: Charity begins at home.

Secondly, thinking about it, xenophobia and racism do not enter into it so please don't put words in my mouth.

a reply to: Telos

Yeah the channel served you very well when England back in the days invaded half of the world, pillaged half of the world resources and squeezed and impoverished countries that they invaded. How does it feel now?

It served us better fending off the French and Spanish , it was just there during Empire , it played no other part than have ships sail over it on their way to colonise.

originally posted by: MrCrow
a reply to: ComplexCassandra

Dear oh dear. You've missed the point. I want my tax pounds to the good of this country and it's peoples first. Not quite sure how we made it to rockets and bombs.

I understand that but the fact of the matter is that regardless of what you want your tax revenue IS being spent on rockets and bombs. It is also being spent on social security.

That's the whole point - you and I have NO control over how our tax revenues are spent. We just have to "suck it up". So I proposed a way whereby we can both "suck it up" in a manner that is less unpalatable to each of us - i.e. you pretend that your tax revenue goes only to the stuff that you support and I'll pretend mine goes to pay for the stuff I support.

It was a facetious comment aimed at the way our heads compartmentalise information. Of course we would only be pretending that our taxes were being used in a specific way just like some are pretending that, when it comes to human beings, there is an US & THEM situation when the reality is actually one of US & US.

a reply to: ComplexCassandra

Fair point.

originally posted by: skywatcher44
True my friend but. A plan has to be forthcoming from our great leaders. We have Iraq, Syria, Libya and Afghanistan . We have Eritrea, Nigeria and other troubled North African countries from where some want or need to escape. We have The Balkans, Kosovo and Albania especially, from which many have left or want to leave. We ( UK ) have had fingers sometimes dirty fingers in all these pies in some ways but best of luck with grand ideas of Change. ( look at Russia and Ukraine ) ( Look at Serbian aggression after the demise of Yugoslavia ) What a pickle indeed.

Clearly we need to prioritize.
The countries with the largest numbers fleeing are (unsurprisingly) the countries where the citizens are most at risk from militants and military forces.

We did a half-assed job in several places because the public demanded we pull out and stop meddling, and now that we have these places are less stable and millions of people are wanting to flee.

It's not true that none of this would have happened without us meddling in these countries, these places were already tinderboxes ready to ignite and these people were already seeing Western media and seeing how we live. These people would have wanted to leave their crappy lives for something better with or without the US taking out Saddam.

The spread of technology combined with the spread of war has led to this. The only way to fix it is to stop those wars and help these people to develop their own countries so that they are at least heading in the right direction toward democracy and a good quality of life for them and their kids.

We've ignored this for decades now, but it's not going to get any better unless we do the following:

1. Give them security
2. Give them hope for a good quality of life

a reply to: Rocker2013

No, they weren't.
Their countries were devastated by centuries of religious madness and persecution, followed by decades of our countries looking the other way while despots and dictators took control and sold us things we needed.

They survived just fine until we came along. After we installed the oil infrastructure to exploit that resource some became despots and puppets for the machine.

They waxed rich and corrupt from all that, not "religion".

Now that relationship with materialism (resource exploitation) and the corruption in western stylized, centralized "governments" is what caused the repression, the rebellions and now the resulting 'interventions' to keep it stable so the oil will continue to flow.

Stop victimizing the countries and blaming them for the resulting flood of refugees.

a reply to: TrueBrit

I'm not against multicultural towns or nations.

What I'm against in this entire immigration debacle is, Who's going to pay for this?

All these immigrants flooding into the UK, who have little to no grasp on English, no money or possessions - who pays to house them, feed them, keep them healthy?

I do. The taxpayers do. Money that our govt would be spending on X is now going to take care of them. Which means there's less money to go around, which means my taxes are wasted (in my opinion).

I don't want to pay for them. And chances are, neither do many others.

Why should I have to pay to house immigrants? I don't want to.

originally posted by: MrCrow
a reply to: Rocker2013

I have only one reply: Charity begins at home.

Secondly, thinking about it, xenophobia and racism do not enter into it so please don't put words in my mouth.

Firstly, you're in the wrong country if you reject the notion of contributing to your society. The UK has done this for a long time and the system is not going to change because you personally want to look after yourself and not contribute.

Secondly, you cannot possibly claim that the example you gave had nothing to do with racism or xenophobia when you clearly made race and nationality the core of your complaint in your example.

Tell me, if those two ladies in front of you collecting a prescription were white, dressed in western clothes, and only had a slight hint of Israeli, American, Irish, Spanish, French or Italian accents would you have even had a problem at all with them collecting a prescription for free?

Come on now, you know the answer to that question and it's now making you consider whether you are in fact xenophobic.

a reply to: intrptr

How do you think they feel?

Do their feeling outweigh the feelings of the people of the countries they are breaking into ?
Do their feeling outweigh concerns for national security and the safety of the countries they are breaking into ?

They are in a sad situation but we are at war with Islamic extremism and these people are all from Islamic countries , now , if I were IS or one of the others don't you think I would use this opportunity to get some people into the camp of the enemy ? , wouldn't you ?

If they were so desperate to escape whatever wouldn't they claim asylum in the FIRST safe country they arrived at ... of course they would but all they want is to get to the milk and honey.

They have opportunities but refuse to take them.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: Telos

Yeah the channel served you very well when England back in the days invaded half of the world, pillaged half of the world resources and squeezed and impoverished countries that they invaded. How does it feel now?

It served us better fending off the French and Spanish , it was just there during Empire , it played no other part than have ships sail over it on their way to colonise.

Great, and now is serving to get you "colonized". See how history can be a biatch. lol

originally posted by: noonebutme
Why should I have to pay to house immigrants? I don't want to.

It's called being a Humanitarian, and as we live in a society where we care for each other and support those unable to support themselves, you (thankfully) have no choice in the matter.

Unless you want to do away with our entire system of social support, you don't get to pick and choose who is "worthy" of help within this country based on race, nationality, religion, languages spoken etc.

You pay money into a system through taxation, and that money is then used to provide for the ENTIRE SOCIETY AROUND YOU, regardless of who you think deserves it, or not.

a reply to: Telos

Great, and now is serving to get you "colonized".

No , the hole drilled beneath it by dumb-ass politicians is doing that , invaded not colonized.

originally posted by: noonebutme
a reply to: TrueBrit

I'm not against multicultural towns or nations.

What I'm against in this entire immigration debacle is, Who's going to pay for this?

All these immigrants flooding into the UK, who have little to no grasp on English, no money or possessions - who pays to house them, feed them, keep them healthy?

I do. The taxpayers do. Money that our govt would be spending on X is now going to take care of them. Which means there's less money to go around, which means my taxes are wasted (in my opinion).

I don't want to pay for them. And chances are, neither do many others.

Why should I have to pay to house immigrants? I don't want to.

Ah the old - "If only I didn't have to pay for X then I would pay less tax" fallacy.

OK, I'll offer you the same deal I offered our fellow ATSer, MrCrow. You pretend your tax money goes to support the things you like and I'll pretend my tax money only goes to the things I like. And we'll both pretend that our tax money isn't really going to the bankers.

If I used the same arguments that I see cited here I would be (probably rightfully) vilified by many.

I happen to think the world is dangerously overpopulated and so have made a lifelong commitment to ensure I do not add to this by making triple damn sure I don't have any children.

So by your logic I should object to paying for schools, children's wards, tax credits (the single biggest UK welfare expenditure, btw), speed-humps, lollipop people etc. etc. The list goes on. In fact I should campaign against these things as then I would be better off?

No. The truth is I would still be just as heavily taxed but there would be even more sick, uneducated kids running wild about the place than there are now. On second thoughts I reckon schools may well be the lesser of two evils.

a reply to: Rocker2013

Of course I'd have the same problem. If they had immigrated from say, Australia (bad example but let's go with it) and got their prescription for free when I have to pay equally grates.

And trust me on the xenophobic/racist issue, even if you don't/can't - I'm not and have very good reasons not to be that I won't be posting here.

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: gortex

Most days.... this feels like Eastern Europe, other days it feels like the mid-east!

Oh Yea London, What hast thou become?

I have lived in London for 25 years and i can tell you i have never felt this way...but then, im not scared of foreigners. Maybe you shoudl relax.

Feels like the mid east? What a stupid thing to say. Stop reading the Daily Mail mate.

originally posted by: MrCrow
a reply to: intrptr

Of course I'd get into that line. If (and I hope never does) that situation arises, then I would expect that the amount of tax and NI I've contributed to the country over the (many) years would pay out, as it were.

That taxes you paid supplied the war machine that destroyed those countries, you complain much about that, then? Or just now that the refugees from that landed on your shore?

They hoped for better, too.

originally posted by: MrCrow
a reply to: ComplexCassandra

The reference? They were immigrants. If they, as you say, were white and in their 80's (i.e not immigrants), they'd have paid their NI and be entitled. Or rather, in my book, more entitled.

What bigot of the year award are you up for? White = non immigrant, non white = immigrant?????? That is pathetic, plus, how do you know they weren't born here or moved here generations ago - only a few less generations relatively than any of your own ancestors?