UK net migration hits record high of 330,000 this year

originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: uncommitted

without leaving the EU

Leaving The EU would send our employment rights through the floor.

We would be working under " Dickensian " conditions.

I don't disagree, but free movement of trade is part of the EU law, we can moan all we like but I don't recall previous governments challenging that law.

originally posted by: MrCrow
a reply to: gortex

This is a topic that I can see there's no end to - I certainly don't have any answers as to how to resolve the situation other than rather draconian methodology.

The only way we will change this situation is by changing the countries these people are running from.

People can rant and scream about this all they like, nothing is going to change until the countries these people are fleeing are secure and can offer them a good quality of life.

These people are not running away from a good job, a nice house in a nice street with a nice community around them. Why would they need to risk their lives and the lives of their children to flee the country of their birth if this was all about "handouts" as the most ignorant racists and xenophobes want to claim.

These are people who have not left their home cities and villages all their lives, they are terrified of what will happen to them if they stay.

Now, with the spread of technology, these people can see how others live and they want that for themselves and their kids, and they HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO WANT THAT.

If we were all born in one of these places, and we were facing a life of poverty for our kids, the daily risk of militants coming in and killing you to kidnap your daughters and murder your sons, and you knew that a few hundred miles away there was a place where people didn't live in fear and could get a nice job and provide for the family, you would ALL BE DOING THE SAME THING.

We need to stop painting these people as being an invading enemy. We are becoming what we fought against in ww2 and people don't even know it. The dehumanization of these people is sickening and it needs to stop. These are not criminals, they are not lesser Humans, they are not rodents or roaches - these are the ways people are describing other Humans right now in the tabloid trash rags and it makes me want to vomit.

Again, nothing is going to change unless we change the countries these people are running away from. Eventually we will be forced into doing it when the numbers running into safety from these hell holes reaches a truly impossible number. There are millions more people in these countries now looking at what others are doing and how they are getting to places like Germany and they too want that life, and why shouldn't they want that?

The question shouldn't be how do we deal with these people, the question should be how do we help these people so they don't need to run from their homes in the first place.

a reply to: intrptr

I don't disagree their plight is awful (for most of them), but enough is enough is enough as far as this country is concerned. The UK has a coastline of finite length which determines the land mass within and further determines how much that land mass can provide for the inhabitants.

A (small) example of how I, at least, feel:

Visit to the chemist to pick up a prescription, two ladies in front of me, obviously immigrants:

Chemist: Do you pay for your prescription?
Woman one (heavily accented): Noo

Chemist: Do you pay for your prescription?
Woman two (head to toe burka, really heavy accent): Na

Chemist: Do you pay for your prescription?
Me: Yes.

originally posted by: lacrimoniousfinale

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
Labour failed to defend our borders. Now Tories fail to defend our borders. Where are all the jobs going to come from when we don't have enough for the locals?

The trouble is that too many of the locals are simply unemployable, and have often rendered themselves thus through drink, drugs and tattoos across the forehead. This is the real elephant in the room, and the one that is taboo for politicians of all persuasions. It explains why, for all the talk to the contrary, the major parties are content to let immigration occur. They know what the reality is - many industries would simply collapse if we didn't have a continuous supply of foreign labour.

Funnient post I've read in a while but you are so right I still think remaining a Christian state is a good idea, in thirty years when we've got proper Balkanisation and Bosnia V.2 here at home, we will look back and see if it was a good idea to go secular. But you do make a good point, many immigrants do work hard and some of our local areas that were run down have actually been improved by them and are now living again.

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: MrCrow
a reply to: gortex

This is a topic that I can see there's no end to - I certainly don't have any answers as to how to resolve the situation other than rather draconian methodology.

Again, nothing is going to change unless we change the countries these people are running away from. Eventually we will be forced into doing it when the numbers running into safety from these hell holes reaches a truly impossible number. There are millions more people in these countries now looking at what others are doing and how they are getting to places like Germany and they too want that life, and why shouldn't they want that?

The question shouldn't be how do we deal with these people, the question should be how do we help these people so they don't need to run from their homes in the first place.

OK, but how do you change their countries? Destroy their current governments? Send in our troops again?

originally posted by: MrCrow
a reply to: intrptr
Chemist: Do you pay for your prescription?
Me: Yes.

Here in the US, if you have money, you have to pay. What would happen if you answered no? Who picks up the tab for people that can't pay?

originally posted by: Revolution9
The old Britain has gone forever. The new Britain is cosmopolitan. It reflects the modern world. What was so great about this UK you are longing for? It was horrible. I grew up in the mess it had become. Good riddance to that.

This is what UKIP voters cling to, an old and imagined utopia when everything was lovely and there were no problems.
Of course that never existed.

These people rant about how things "used to be" as though things were so much better.
I was born in the 70's, but I know what life was like back then and it wasn't any better, it was far, far, far worse.

These people are living in the past, and seeing it through rose tinted spectacles, but mostly it's an excuse to be xenophobic and a typical Daily Mail reading casual racist without actually admitting it.

They look around in the street at all the brown faces and they hear the different languages being spoken and their ignorance immediately kicks in. Rather than admit that they're an ignorant fool refusing to accept that the world changes faster than they can they manufacture a time in their own heads when "everything was great, before they came here".

Unfortunately, there are a hell of a lot of people like this in the UK. I've lost friends over it in the past and I have no doubt I'll lose more over it in the future. I can't stand tribalism and xenophobia, and when I see it in people I know I challenge it and hope they change, and if they don't then I move on to other people who aren't so ignorant.

a reply to: intrptr

Who pick up the tab? The taxpayer, i.e. me. And that grates.

originally posted by: MrCrow
a reply to: intrptr

A (small) example of how I, at least, feel:

Visit to the chemist to pick up a prescription, two ladies in front of me, obviously immigrants:

Chemist: Do you pay for your prescription?
Woman one (heavily accented): Noo

Chemist: Do you pay for your prescription?
Woman two (head to toe burka, really heavy accent): Na

Chemist: Do you pay for your prescription?
Me: Yes.

Their eligibility for free prescriptions is not governed by their country of origin or religious viewpoint (or even dress sense) though, is it?

My guess is that they were eligible for free prescriptions on grounds that you weren't. Would you tell the same story if the two ladies in front of you were white and in their eighties?

If these two ladies had not come to this country and were therefore not standing in front of you in the queue at the chemist you would still not have been entitled to a free prescription. So what is the relevance of this story?

originally posted by: MrCrow

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: MrCrow
a reply to: gortex

This is a topic that I can see there's no end to - I certainly don't have any answers as to how to resolve the situation other than rather draconian methodology.

Again, nothing is going to change unless we change the countries these people are running away from. Eventually we will be forced into doing it when the numbers running into safety from these hell holes reaches a truly impossible number. There are millions more people in these countries now looking at what others are doing and how they are getting to places like Germany and they too want that life, and why shouldn't they want that?

The question shouldn't be how do we deal with these people, the question should be how do we help these people so they don't need to run from their homes in the first place.

OK, but how do you change their countries? Destroy their current governments? Send in our troops again?

It's a complicated problem and this should be an entirely different thread, there is no silver bullet to this and I don't pretend to know what the right solution is.
What I do know, though, is that rather than waste our time and recourses on dealing with a constant aftermath, we should be at least talking about what the CAUSES are and how to deal with them.

If you have water pouring through your roof, you fix the damn roof, you don't spend the rest of your life emptying overflowing buckets.

a reply to: Rocker2013

The only way we will change this situation is by changing the countries these people are running from.

Thats the whole problem, their countries were devastated by "Humanitarian Interventions" in the first place.

a reply to: ComplexCassandra

The reference? They were immigrants. If they, as you say, were white and in their 80's (i.e not immigrants), they'd have paid their NI and be entitled. Or rather, in my book, more entitled.

originally posted by: MrCrow
a reply to: intrptr

Who pick up the tab? The taxpayer, i.e. me. And that grates.

If you were to suddenly lose your job, become ill and need medicines that you could no longer afford, you wouldn't get into that line because the tax payers will suffer?

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Rocker2013

The only way we will change this situation is by changing the countries these people are running from.

Thats the whole problem, their countries were devastated by "Humanitarian Interventions" in the first place.

No, they weren't.
Their countries were devastated by centuries of religious madness and persecution, followed by decades of our countries looking the other way while despots and dictators took control and sold us things we needed.

Even so, none of this changes what is happening now and the reality that we have to deal with. Even if you completely ignore the militant threats, the dictators and the despots running these countries, you STILL have the reality that technology we all love is now showing these people the world, and these people are now seeing that they have been living in a terrible place.

The Human soul demands freedom. Even someone born into a prison camp knows that they are being abused. They look at those fence without knowing what is beyond them but they have an instinctual need to escape it.

These people now have phones and they have access to the world outside the poverty and war they've suffered through their whole lives, and they want a better life for themselves - which is their right.

Nothing will change unless we make their home towns and cities places they don't need to run from.

a reply to: intrptr

Of course I'd get into that line. If (and I hope never does) that situation arises, then I would expect that the amount of tax and NI I've contributed to the country over the (many) years would pay out, as it were.

originally posted by: ComplexCassandra
We should not be so focused on national borders without first addressing the vaginal borders. There are already far too many humans in the world. Where they are is of secondary concern.

Yeah too many people on Planet Earth. What are we going to do? There may need to be a one child policy in places like India etc just to slow down the population increases. To be honest as long as people integrate things will be ok, but the problem is there. All imigrants should go through a drink alcohol test. If you don't drink alcohol then sorry, you're not coming in, because if people don't drink alcohol they will never integrate with the host population and then Balkanisation takes place and towns like Oldham, Rochdale, etc will become permanently didided like Sarajevo then one spark and it's Bosnia V2. Drink our beer and blend in or sorry...... Go somewhere where you'll fit in. Nothing wrong with the imigration figures if we bring the right type in

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: MrCrow

I was against the Channel Tunnel when they started building it , the way I see it it turned us from an island into a promontory of Europe.
The channel served us well through the centuries but now has be undermined ... literally.

Yeah the channel served you very well when England back in the days invaded half of the world, pillaged half of the world resources and squeezed and impoverished countries that they invaded. How does it feel now?

I guess history repeats it self. The issue is tho who is in the bend over side this time?

originally posted by: MrCrow
a reply to: intrptr

Who pick up the tab? The taxpayer, i.e. me. And that grates.

I'll tell you what. We can solve this between the pair of us and we can turn it into a win-win situation.

I hate the fact that my UK tax pounds are spent on things like bombs and missiles and all manner of foreign wars but I have no trouble with helping out those of US less fortunate than I.

You obviously begrudge your UK tax pounds being spent on helping these same people.

So here's the deal. You pay for the bombs and missiles and wars and stuff out of YOUR contribution and I'll sort out the welfare payments and free prescriptions and stuff out of MINE. Sound like a fix? That way we can both be happy.

Problem solved.

It was a time, in history when countries were younger that migration was considered a sign of progress, people migrated to look for work and opportunities, nations grew and were able to provide for most of their citizens, while the rest were the producers of goods,.

Now migration has another meaning, most affluent countries are facing a big problem, they no longer can provide stability for their already established citizens, new influx of immigrants add more burden to the already burdened countries and poverty becomes a problem.

It is sad that people have to leave their country of origins due to many issues, including war and persecution.

But most immigrants only bring poverty this days.

originally posted by: MrCrow
a reply to: ComplexCassandra

The reference? They were immigrants. If they, as you say, were white and in their 80's (i.e not immigrants), they'd have paid their NI and be entitled. Or rather, in my book, more entitled.

So someone unable to work is not entitled?
Someone under working age is not entitled?
Does the Humanitarian spirit rely on your perceptions of how "worthy" someone is to receive help?

The social support systems we have in this country came about as a result of the need to bring people who could not help themselves out of poverty. The mindset of "you don't deserve it" is anathema to that concept and should always be rejected.

In my opinion, if anyone needs to be told "no" it's the British born and raised lazy a** layabouts who refuse to go out and get a job, rather than people coming here looking for a new life and entirely willing to work for it.

If it comes down to who deserves that help, I would rather my taxes go to help a foreign woman with two kids who fled Syria than a British born teenager who would rather play GTA and get stoned 24/7 than get off his skinny a** and provide for himself.

If we're going on who is the most deserving, place of birth, race, nationality, language spoken or religious belief should have nothing to do with it.

The fact that race, religion and language are the defining aspects of the reasons to reject those people in this particular discussion shows exactly that this is about racism and xenophobia and nothing to do with paying taxes to support people who need help.