ATS Debate: Round 1: NinjaoftheNight vs. Xaos

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posted on Jun, 8 2003 @ 04:39 PM
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ATS Great Debate
Round One


NinjaoftheNight vs. Xaos

Topic: Elite Freemasons are secret Satanists.

NinjaoftheNight will take the affirmative position, agreeing with the statement and will have first opening statement.

Xaos will take the contrary position, and will have first closing statement.

Editing of your posts is strictly prohibited! For obvious reasons. Editing your post results in immediate forfeiture.

1- Competitors assigned the affirmative position go first with an opening statement, and have right of passing their opening statement post to their contrary position competitor. Opening statements cannot contain links.

2- Each competitor in turn contributes six posts to support their side of the topic. (For a total of seven posts) These are the only posts within the debate that may contain links to articles, or embedded pictures/graphics. (one link or graphic per post). No more than 18 hours between posts or you forfeit your turn.

3- The competitor representing the contrary position has first right of closing statement. As with the opening statement, they have an opportunity to pass to their competitor representing the affirmative position. Closing statements cannot contain links.

4- Each competitor can submit one rebuttal to their competitors closing statement, but cannot exceed 200 words. Rebuttals are not required.

This is a total of 18 posts, the debate is closed, and voting begins. Forum members will vote on the merits of your capabilities arguing your side of the position, not their opinion of the position.

The debate begins at 23:00 GMT today. Opening statement from the affirmative side is due by 17:00 tomorrow, or the opening statement is passed to the contrary side.

Good luck, and have fun.




posted on Jun, 9 2003 @ 01:02 PM
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Opening statement has pass to Xaos.

If ninjaofthenight does not respond to Xaos's opening statement within 8 hours of Xaos' post, the alternate ilovepizza will take the place of NinjaoftheNight.

Xaos, the thread is yours.



posted on Jun, 9 2003 @ 04:24 PM
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The idea that elite freemasons are secret satanists is preposterous. It is a belief born of fear, fear of the unknown. People see freemasonry as supernatural, for some reason special because they have little knowledge of it. Freemasonry is not even a secret society, would a secret society paint arcs and compasses on their lodges? Would they publicly admit their existance? Would members participate in Fourth of July parades? They are not a secret society, the only cause for that idea is the human need to believe in something special, secret and better than themselves. Ask yourselves what is cooler to talk about: A charity organization of men who sit around and talk of philosophy and life? Or a shadowy cabal of demonic satanists who are orchestrating moves on the global level?

(I am going a little off topic here, but bear with me) In the story The Red Headed League Sherlock Holmes stated that "'Omne ignotum pro magnifico," or "Everything unknown is taken for magnificent." This quote fits in perfectly with Freemasonry, as it is just a rather dull social club with some funny rituals. People see Freemasonry as magical because of the mysteriousness of its being. This works perfectly for the order. Someone walks by a Freemason fundraiser and sees a picket line of anti-masons and decides to check out what is going on there. They walk in expecting something mysterious and walk out having contributed money to the poor or for another noble purpose. Do you really think that a charity group has satanic connections?

And now to the topic at hand: Are elite freemasons satanists? What do you think, they moved through the ranks of the brotherhood having helped the needy, do you really expect them to turn into bloodthirsty fiends when they get that final degree of Master Mason. You can be sure that they are the same person they were when they started out as a lowly initiate.

There are those who say that they are anti-christian, as their prayers do not mention Jesus Christ. But they do mention a Grand Architect of the Universe, a God figure. They do revere God and offer no objections to the Christian faith. They are not a religious organization nor are they a religion. Is the International Red Cross satanic because they refuse to mention God in their charter?

You need to lift up your perceptions from the lies and muck and look through to the truth. Elite Freemasons cannot be satanists, and use of pure logic proves it. Those who believe otherwise are only holding to a lie.



posted on Jun, 10 2003 @ 10:27 PM
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To hide in the open is often the best disguise. The charity and good works are merely a front to their insidious works. Take the mafia as an example. Did they not use fronts for their distribution and supply of illicit goods? They used soup kitchens that distributed food to the poor as a charitable front for their "organization". And to you point that they are not satanic because of what happens in their meetings is not satanic. That it may not be but have you ever been to a masonic meeting? The meetings in themselves may not be overly satanic, but a little subtlety is sliped in to prepare the masons for their true purpose. Their prayers do not mentioned God but they do mention a great architect so they? The Elite masonic group the Illuminati worship satan as the great enlightener or "higher being" do they not. These simple prayers are only a tool to in an essence brain wash the lower masons to prepare them for the final greater truth of their humble organization.
You are the one that is blinded by your misconceptions about their true purpose, you have fallen prey to their propaganda. Open your eyes in see the truth.



posted on Jun, 11 2003 @ 08:53 AM
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To hide in the open may be a good disguise, but a better one is to be non-existant to an onlooker, or thought of as extinct. If freemasons truly want to hide, wouldnt it be better to not even acknowledge their existance? Or to pretend to have dissolved? Why would you do the equivalent of running around screaming "I am a mason!" They do not wear masks to hide their membership as the Klu Klux Klan does. They do not kill those who know about it. They instead drive in parades throwing candy and serve hot dogs at public holiday celebrations like the Fourth of July. Tell me, if they were so satanic, wouldnt they be putting poison in the candy and food? Wouldnt this be a much better way to achieve their "satanic" agenda?

True some criminal organizations get involved in charity, but not all charity organizations are involved in crime. Do you see the United Way smuggling drugs? Is the British Comic Relief group killing members of other charity organizations? Is the Salvation Army invading other countries? Masons are just a simple group of people, mostly old men, who want to give back to the community. They just want to sit around and talk about life and maybe organize a fundraiser or two. Could you see your grandfather sacrificing a live baby to Beelzebub? I cannot, and mine was a mason.

Masons advocate religous tolerance and will accept members from any denomination. They do not discriminate against anyone. In fact they have points to their philosphy:


There is a Supreme Being
Who created the Universe,
Who has established and revealed a moral law,
And to Whom we must give account
in a life after this.

Does this sound like Satan? Sounds more like god, unless your definition of satan is skewed. God is a Supreme Being who created the Universe, and
established and revealed a moral law, and to Whom we must give account in a life after this. This is not satan. It is god. Satan is not any of these.

Let me give you a list of masons: Washington, Truman, Churchill, Goethe, Schiller, Conan Doyle, Burl Ives, Ernest Borgnine, Gene Autry , Mozart, Haydn, and Irving Berlin. Are they satanists? I do not think so. Wouldnt you think that satanists would work together? Hitler was an anti-mason, but he was pretty much a satanist.

America was founded by a mason, and wouldnt you think a nation founded by satanists would have much more restrictions and cruelties? Indeed, many countries where masons were persecuted: Nazi Germany, The Soviet Union etc. were quite evil.

Now isnt it funny that both of us called upon the reader to "open their eyes to the truth" or to "see the truth"? Now what is really true. Now use Occams Razor to bleed away the lies. What is more possible: That history has been engineered by baby-sacrificing, black mass attending, devil worshipping masons. Or that because of jealousy and fear this harmless group known as the Freemasons has been persecuted and slandered by demagogues who do little to help others.

You're turn



posted on Jun, 11 2003 @ 03:57 PM
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Their purpose is to rule the world so if they poison the food they are giving to people who would the rule over if everyone is dead? I did not say that all charity organizations are involved in crime but that certain organizations have more to them than meets the eye. Masons were heavily involved i the organization and carrying out of many revolutions including the Bolshevik and French revolutions. Although it may seem that these revolutions were for a higher cause, look at what happened in the aftermath of the Bolshevik revolution, Communism. The French "now liberated" are one of the most anti-american countries in nato. The hate america a country that stands for Freedom. That is the course of a nation founded through masonic influences. I can only imagine where the USA is goin with its origins. I did not say that the masons sacrifice babys to Beelzebub but that the Elite Masons believe that Satan is the great Illuminator that will bring knowledge and understanding to those that believe in him and worship him. The KKK and the Elite Masons have entirely different goals so the comparison of the two besides that they are both secret soicieties are prepostorous.



posted on Jun, 12 2003 @ 03:36 PM
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There is little else to Masonry than meets the eye. It is an organizantion for which entrance is quite simple, and an investigative journalist would have little trouble infiltrating the ranks for an expose on the secrets of Masonry. If there was anything slightly shady about them it would be all across the news in days. Wouldnt the headline "Worldwide Cult Involved With Satanism" sell millions of copies? A news company could get rich off it.

And as for the revolutions, the idea of communism goes against everything masons stand for. They believe in a Supreme Being, something outlawed in Soviet Russia. They may have been involved in the revolution, but you can be sure that they could have had nothing to do with the aftermath. And the French Revolution really did nothing for the peasants, who had to live under a constitutional monarchy in which the king had all the power and the parliament was just a puppet. Then they got Napolean who just killed them for territory. The current French Government had nothing to do with the Revolution, as the Revolutionaries were bedfellows with the Americans. And yes, many countries hate America, as it is a country founded by Freemasons and through their influences became one that was a symbol of Freedom.

I will give you this: Some Masonic schoars make reference to the "luciferian path," but it is in reference to a quest for knowledge rather than evil. The name Lucifer was used to designate the Devil only recently, and in ancient times was a synonym for truth, knowledge and light, the opposite of evil. It is in this sense that Lucifer is mentioned, as an allusion to the Masonic search for truth.

Yes, I agree with you that to compare the KKK to Masons. The KKK are satanic, the Masons are not


And you did not say that Elite Masons sacrifice infants, you said that they were satanists, in which baby killing is implied.

And here is a list of Famous Freemasons, categorized alphabetically: Link Try to find a satanist there.



posted on Jun, 12 2003 @ 10:58 PM
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Lucifer has always been a name for satan since biblical times. It was his name when he was an angel before he rebeled against God. As to the luciferian path of knowledge that is exactlly what i am talking about looking to satan for knowledge.

The KKK was formed as a group of people who killed those who they considered "inferior" not a satanic cult in origon but with satanic traces.

Satanists do not have to sacrifice babys to fufill their whorship. Whorship is conclueded in many ways so why is it that it has to be infant sacrifice. I believe that they give prayer to satan to enlighten them in a way that would humble themselves before him in a way of "worship". Here is a quote from a mason acknowledging satans power as a creator and divine being-
One of the most hidden secrets involves the so-called fall of Angels. Satan and his rebellious host will thus prove to have become the direct Saviours and Creators of divine man. Thus Satan, once he ceases to be viewed in the superstitious spirit of the church, grows into the grandiose image. It is Satan who is the God of our planet and the only God. Satan (or Lucifer) represents the Centrifugal Energy of the Universe, this ever-living symbol of self-sacrifice for the intellectual independence of humanity.

Sister H.P. Blavatsky
The Secret Doctrine
Pages 215, 216, 220, 245, 255, 533

The Illuminati one of the most known Elite Masonic organizations was created by Adam Wiepshaut. -I am proud to be known to the world as the founder of the Illuminati." -- Adam Weishaupt

I afterwards throw away this name and substitute reason. But I assure you this is no small affair; A new religion, and a new state-government, which so happily explain one and all of these symbols, and combines them in one degree.--- an excerpt of a letter from Adam Weishaupt to another Illuminatist about Christianity.

These quotes obviously show why Masons and especially the Illuminati are not christains.



posted on Jun, 13 2003 @ 06:59 AM
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Lucifer has not been a name for Satan, especially in Biblical times. It has only been a few hundred years since it entered the lexicon as a word for the devil or a demon, and was not popularized until it was used by Milton in his Paradise Lost. There is only one Biblical mention of Lucifer and it has nothing to do with the devil. In Isaiah 14:12 Lucifer is used as a synonym for the Morning Star, or the appearance of Venus in the morning sky. The parable is about how King Tiglath-pileser III thinks that he, in his arrogance, is equal to the Morning Star, something obviously vaunted and sacred. The Lord brings the king low and shows that those who exalt themselves as being great, while persecuting the chosen people of the Lord (Israelites) shall be punished. In this sense the Morning Star is seen as something mighty, something a king would try to emulate, not an embodiment of darkness and evil. Indeed, Lucifer was used as a word for light or knowledge and truth, something you would think would be the opposite of the devil. Lucifer was used as a surname for goddessess such as Aurora and Artemis, reknowned for their beauty and learning. There is no true agreeance on what Lucifer is thought of currently. Sometimes Lucifer is regarded as a seperate entity from satan, and sometimes as having nothing to do with him.

Lucifer, the Luciferian Path, or the energies of Lucifer are rarely mentioned in Masonic writings, the only instances where they come up are in the works of Albert Pike and other Masonic Scholars a century ago. Back then, the word Lucifer had not become synonymous with the Devil and was used as a reference to the Light Bearer or in a Quest for Light. They seek the opposite of what the devil wants, Truth, Knowledge, Learning, Light, and Honor.

As for your Masonic "quote," I am not sure where it is and who it is attributed to. And as for the passage about Satan, it seems to be a blend of the stories of satan's fall and Prometheus myths and in all, quite fictional. Actually, come to think of it your quote has a Gnostic ring to it, a story of a god who was cast away, and created humanity, in which case Masons would seek the truth of the higher reality, rather than live in the lie that is the world.

And now to good old Adam Weishaupt, founder of the Bavarian Illuminati. Dead for two hundred years along with his cult. And while the group, in its short lived history was known as a mischevious and controversial society, Weishaupt did say



"Whoever does not close his ear to the lamentations of the miserable, nor his heart to gentle pity; whoever is the friend and brother of the unfortunate; whoever has a heart capable of love and friendship; whoever is steadfast in adversity, unwearied in the carrying out of whatever has been once engaged in, undaunted in the overcoming of difficulties; whoever does not mock and despise the weak; whose soul is susceptible of conceiving great designs, desirous of rising superior to all base motives, and of distinguishing itself by deeds of benevolence; whoever shuns idleness; whoever considers no knowledge as unessential which he may have the opportunity of acquiring, regarding the knowledge of mankind as his chief study; whoever, when truth and virtue are in question, despising the approbation of the multitude, is sufficiently courageous to follow the dictates of his own heart, - such a one is a proper candidate." 5


No tell me, where in that passage is satanism? Hmmm? The charter of it was to, and I quote, "by the mutual assistance of its members, to attain the highest possible degree of morality and virtue, and to lay the foundation for the reformation of the world by the association of good men to oppose the progress of moral evil."

Once again, I ask you: How is that Satanic? In my opinion it is quite the opposite, but some people have different opinions on attaining morality and virtue, and opposing moral evil.

All this aside, the Illuminati had little to do with Masons, and after 1785 pretty much went extinct. It's lack of existance did little to dissuade conspiracy theorists and anti-masons that there was a secret satanic organization controlling the world, a laughable notion surely. The Illuminati were nothing more than a short-lived group of men who, for some reason, garnered the hate and prejudice of many.

Your Turn



posted on Jun, 18 2003 @ 09:53 AM
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Ninjaofthenight must post a response soon or face default.



posted on Jun, 20 2003 @ 07:48 PM
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I thought that we are proceding to conclusions?



posted on Jun, 21 2003 @ 03:35 PM
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If you want, you have first conclusion, the board is yours.



posted on Jun, 21 2003 @ 07:41 PM
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As i have said many times although many lower masons are not satanists the Elite Masonic Orginizations are satanic in their practices(not baby sacrifice). The masons use their image to distort the view of people that see their organization as a charatible group of older men, not as a organization that is involved in a conspiracy that includes world domination. The Elite Masons in their high seat of power as many members of multi-million dollar companies that use their money and influence as tools to achieve their goals. I hope that all the readers enjoyed their read as much as i enjoyed the match. Good luck Xaos.



posted on Jun, 22 2003 @ 11:23 AM
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Are the highest ranking Freemasons satanists? Are they trying to dominate the world with subliminal messages and flouride in the water supply? Can you say yes to that with a straight face?

In reality, outside of the overactive, paranoid minds of conspiracy theorists, Freemasons are nothing more than a social club. A gather of men to discuss buisness, philosophy and life. They just want to have the right to meet without their name and purpose being slandered by egotistical attention-seekers.

Though they keep to themselves much of the time, they do also get involved in community service projects. They have no aim to hurt, just to help; they organize food drives, clothing drives, fundraisers, they have built hospitals and retirement homes, they have cancer research organizations. Does this sound to you like an evil, satan-worshipping cult?

They do not conceal themselves, and mark their meeting places. They do not try to hide the identity of their members, why would they? In fact, Freemasonry is open to anyone, of any religion to join. They do not segregate by belief or race. Their aim is to bring peace and harmony to the world, to help the hungry and poor. To close the bloody rifts between religions. Why would satan worshippers want such things? Wouldnt they prefer that blood was spilt?

I hope that this debate was as informative to you as it was to me, I learned much about Freemasonry from it, and I hope others did too.

XAOS





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