I'm going to ask the doctor for a strong anti-depresant for only a couple of days.

a reply to: Azureblue

And i suppose vaccines aren't any good as well . Anti depressants are working for me , how dare you try to steer someone away from proven mainstream medicine .

a reply to: CJCrawley

So not necessarily placebo?

For example. I was started on one AD, and 3 days later I had a severe panic attack while at work. I wasn't at the time suffering from panic attacks - it came from out of the blue. It was absolutely not my expectation (which was that I would start to feel nice). The doctor recognised this as a problematic side effect with this certain drug; he didn't say, "Are you sure you didn't imagine this? It's only been 3 days, it shouldn't have started to work yet."

No, he stopped the drug, put me on a different one, and then I started feeling really good...about 3 days later.

I have known some patients with advanced dementia start to improve after 2 days. Obviously they had no clue what they were taking or why. So, not likely attributable to the placebo effect.

No, not necessarily placebo. That is why I said it is likely the result of the placebo effect in my initial response to your post. However, there is really no way to know for sure exactly what percentage of people are under the placebo effect...on any kind of medication. There simply is not enough data to support much more than an educated guess, based on previous patient responses in a clinical study. There is no way to definitively prove it, other than drawing the patient's blood to check the quantitative level or other blood studies like serotonin...if it's an SSRI they're using they'll get a baseline sample, for instance, and then the subsequent quantitative serotonin levels will reflect a therapeutic level.

In those cases, they can safely say that the improvement is not due to the placebo effect. It's not an exact science; most people require multiple adjustments of their dose or, as several people have mentioned, a switch to a different medication or even taking more than one type of antidepressant together before they actually reach a therapeutic level.

And, as I said earlier, most of these medications have side effects that are actually beneficial to those with severe depression, such as excitability; if you've got a patient with such severe depression that they cannot muster the energy to get out of bed, this is going to make someone like that feel like a million bucks, and very quickly too. But it is not the medication itself; it is other components in the medication.

This is also the reason that a lot of people suffering from neural deficit, dementia patients, Alzheimer's, show marked improvement in a very short period of time...the side effects serve to "wake them up". Most people don't realize that part of dementia in the elderly is often due to a depressive state...give them meds that clear out the "fogginess" and they become more lucid and energetic, which improves their overall mental health, and quite rapidly too.

This is a long post and I didn't intend it to be, nor is it my intent to derail the thread, so here's the point that I am trying to get across regarding this particular situation:

It is not a very good idea, as a medical professional, to "diagnose" a patient if you are not a licensed physician, and that is what I'm seeing here. Not just from you, but other people as well. The difference here is, you identified yourself as a nurse, and that makes you even more responsible for being careful about what you say to people. You can say you've seen what appears to be an improvement in the patients under your care, but only a doctor can actually make that assessment, because they have an entire care plan set for each patient and that consists of many different factors other than their outward appearance, and (especially in the mental health field) are likely under the care of more than one type of physician.

The changes you observe are only a snapshot of that, one small facet of the entire situation...and with something like this thread, it is definitely a bad idea to give any type of medical advice or purport something as "fact" when it actually is not, because that person could start taking meds on their own (or do other, equally dumb things) that may actually be harmful to them. This is exactly why sites like Web MD need to be removed from the internet.

The very best thing for the OP to do here is to seek the advice of a physician, not take the word of strangers on the internet, and most definitely not self-diagnosing, which is exactly what started this whole discussion. The simple fact is, the OP may feel depressed, but that is not necessarily the case, and there are many different reasons why a person might feel that way that actually have nothing to do with actual mental health issues, and even actual disease processes that can be life-threatening. What if OP went out and found someone to prescribe or obtain antidepressants, believing that it is a "fact" that it will be effective within three days time? Would you want to find out that someone followed your "facts" and advice and that harm befell that person as a result? I sure wouldn't.

Hopefully, OP will go to the doctor and that doctor will not be unethical enough to prescribe something based on nothing but a "feeling", but at least if that happens it'll be the doctor who is at fault if something goes wrong, not you or me or anyone else here who has suggested anything other than getting checked out by a licensed practitioner who can make a differential diagnosis. Even herbal medicine, as was suggested earlier by someone, can make a person very ill if not taken properly...just because it's "from nature" doesn't mean that it is safe to take. After all, most pharmaceutical drugs, at their very base structure, are also derived from nature.


ETA: Regarding your panic attacks with the initial medicine, that is easily recognizable as an adverse effect. That is not a typical contraindication and typically will abate as the medication builds in the bloodstream and the body becomes acclimated to it. Most docs will ask their patient to stick it out for at least two weeks and if the problem is still occurring, then they'll adjust dose and/or type of medication. But if it is severely interfering with the patient's everyday life, causing them to miss work or not be able to function at home, etc., they will just switch medications. Because at that point, it is a side effect; the medication itself is not actually working yet.

Some have more intense side effects than others, and every patient is unique...some combination of ingredients that caused you to have panic attacks may not affect another person the same way, or even affect them at all, and vice versa. That is why there is no "standard dose", and also why some people go through such a struggle to find a medication and dosage that works for their individual needs.

a reply to: calstorm

People have already mentioned it takes time for anti-depressents to work. What hasn't been said yet is that you can't just stop taking them either. Any time you take a drug that messes with brain chemistry you have to slowly wean off of it.
If you try and take high doses for a few days and then abruptly stop, you'll end up feeling worse than the reason you tried them to begin with.

Not everyone suffers discontinuation syndrome. It depends a lot on which antidepressant they're taking, and how long they've been taking it. I think it's something like one out of five people experience it after being on the medicine for longer than 4 weeks. More severe if it's an SNRI. One or two days should not make a difference...however, everybody is different so literally anything can happen. Of course I don't think any responsible physician is going to prescribe something like an SSRI or SNRI for a three day period anyway. It would be completely pointless.

originally posted by: musicismagic
I won't go into it (personal), but what should I be asking for and what do you think he'll recommend. I'm going to need the strongest that's available on the market. I can cope and have coped with many struggles ( no drug and alcohol addiction, ever), but this one I think its best if I'm really (well, I hope you understand).


I know he'll recommend the right prescription for me, but I don't live in an English speaking country.

NO medicine will work in a few days. you won't get help if you seek this.

Not legally anyway...

a reply to: tigertatzen

And, as I said earlier, most of these medications have side effects that are actually beneficial to those with severe depression, such as excitability; if you've got a patient with such severe depression that they cannot muster the energy to get out of bed, this is going to make someone like that feel like a million bucks, and very quickly too. But it is not the medication itself; it is other components in the medication.

What you seem to be referring to is psychomotor stimulation which is quite different from mood-brightening. There is first an improvement in psychomotor response; the mood-brightening effect occurs later. Psychomotor improvement wont, by itself, make a depressed person "feel like a million bucks"; to the contrary, it will increase the likelihood of someone with suicidal ideation of carrying out their plan. Many people have committed suicide in the initial stages of antidepressant therapy for this reason.

What I am referring to is a mood-brightening effect which I have experienced and have witnessed in some of my clients.

It is not a very good idea, as a medical professional, to "diagnose" a patient if you are not a licensed physician...you identified yourself as a nurse, and that makes you even more responsible for being careful about what you say to people.

I haven't "diagnosed" anyone, you keep saying this. Go back to page one and read my first post which was to advise the OP to visit a doctor rather than seek advice from contributors to the thread.

You can say you've seen what appears to be an improvement in the patients under your care, but only a doctor can actually make that assessment

That's nonsense, you have a very low opinion of nurses. Doctors, thankfully, have a healthier level of respect for fellow professionals on whose observations they rely totally in their assessment and treatment of those in their care.

spelling error

a reply to: Subaeruginosa

your claim that ssri's were effective for you after only 3 days is complete BS. It was nothing more than a placebo effect, which indicates you where never really depressed in the first place!

In the interests of Deny Ignorance I should point out that antidepressants wont improve mood and functioning in a person who isn't depressed. Not enough is known about the placebo effect to say anything worthwhile.

When you get high from cannabis, how much is that attributable to the placebo effect?

a reply to: hutch622

Benzos are very good at what they are designed for , and yes they are abused , and yes they are not anti depressants . But in my case they are probably the reason i am still alive , they filled a gap while i went through the anti depressant catalogue until one worked . As for addiction , well in my case yes and no , mentally yes , physically no . I had no trouble stopping ( 4 mg xanax daily ) but to be fair it was a self quitting program over quite a few weeks . Here ( Australia ) it is pretty tightly controlled now and i doubt you could get long term prescriptions . BTW i quit well before these restrictions came into practise .

You are likely one of the lucky ones out there who does not develop both a chemical and a psychological addiction to substances. That is me too...I have systemic lupus and used to struggle with severe panic disorder, and for a long while (almost two years), I was prescribed Xanax XR, 2mg every day (a whopping dose, incidentally, for someone who barely weighs 120 lbs) to combat that aspect of my disease.

By all logic, I should not have been able to just stop taking them, but I did...cold turkey, and without permission from my doctor. That could have gone very badly for me and I really should have done what you did and weaned off of them; I was very fortunate to not have developed a chemical dependency, because most people do, but I wanted to stop taking them immediately because there was no longer a need for me to continue taking them, and I don't see the point in (me personally) dragging something out like that.

A lot of people are prescribed benzodiazepines in conjunction with antidepressant therapy, simply because the "excitability" factor of SSRI or SNRI meds can cause severe anxiety, and it is widely believed in Psych medicine that anxiety can actually worsen depression, or even cause it... as in cases like where someone said their coworker was prescribed Klonopin after the death of his child. And I agree with you, benzos can be a very good "bandaid fix" to keep depression from worsening or actually taking root in the first place, especially when there is a difficulty finding the right antidepressant and the sufferer's quality of life is being profoundly affected. Better to be sedated than to be out of control, basically.

My problem with the whole "just get some Xanax" approach in this particular scenario is that the OP does not have a differential diagnosis from a licensed medical practitioner, and the fact that a thread was started based on that is enough to tell me that someone who seeks medical advice from people on the internet would also be willing to act on that advice--not a smart idea for someone who openly admits to having struggled with addiction in the past, as in this case.

OP could have any number of things going on that mimic symptoms of depression, and the only way to know that is to be evaluated by a professional. Also, of course, the poster who made the empirical statement that because they felt that something worked in three days' time for them personally, it was a "fact" that needed to be established....in reality, it is nowhere near "fact", it is a personal opinion that decades of medical science strongly disagrees with.

It is very heavily regulated here in the States, too. And one of the leading reasons why, is the very topic of this thread. People who self-diagnose and/or abuse certain medications, people who diagnose their friends/family because they have similar "symptoms" and share their own meds, believing somehow that it is ok, and the ridiculous number of physicians out there who have a habit of utilizing their prescription pad more than their medical expertise, out of laziness or the pompous, irresponsible belief that they only have to hear a patient's chief complaint in order to make a diagnosis. Sadly, that is also how these meds end up becoming street drugs...and because of things like this, the people who truly do need them have a harder time obtaining them; this is true for many, many medications out there, and it's only going to get worse.

I am very glad that you are ok. I don't think people in general can understand how profoundly depression can hurt a person...and destroy their life. It is hard to find support too, because of the societal stigma that persists regarding mental illness. The important distinction is not looking at medicine as a "cure", but as a tool by which we can control the symptoms of illness in order to overcome what's causing it in the first place. There is no "quick fix". That is not realistic, nor is it solving the problem by looking for such an answer, which the OP was doing here.

a reply to: CJCrawley

That's nonsense, you have a very low opinion of nurses. Doctors, thankfully, have a healthier level of respect for fellow professionals on whose observations they rely totally in their assessment and treatment of those in their care.

If I had "a very low opinion of nurses", I would then also have to have a very low opinion of myself and I assure you, I do not. You are making assumptions based on nothing but the fact that I disagree with you trying to convince people that your personal perception equates to "fact", which you most certainly did say. It was that utter nonsense that prompted me to address you in the first place.

And newsflash: doctors' reliance on nurses observations as one of many tools to help them assess the best course of action for their patients is not the same as doctors allowing nurses to practice medicine in lieu of their own medical licenses, nor do they allow nurses to diagnose or give prognoses for their patients, either, which is basically what you are asserting here. If you want to practice medicine, go back to school and earn the right to do so.

You can observe and record, and implement a care plan that has been outlined by a physician, but you are not a doctor and therefore have no business calling your abstract, limited clinical observations and personal bias "facts", and most assuredly not your personal opinion that your own medication magically started working in just three days time, which is highly improbable, even by the admission of the pharmaceutical manufacturers themselves, who would stand to benefit greatly from such a fortuitous development, yet do not make such outrageous claims. Know why? Because that is not how their medications work, and they know it.

I haven't "diagnosed" anyone, you keep saying this. Go back to page one and read my first post which was to advise the OP to visit a doctor rather than seek advice from contributors to the thread.

So someone else typed this?

You're considering taking an antidepressant, so can we take it therefore that you are feeling depressed?

Depression is a clinical diagnosis. People don't "feel" depressed. They can feel "lethargic" or "sad" or "unusually tired" or "unhappy", which are symptoms of many, many illnesses...including depression. Which you also should have learned in nursing school. You are, in fact, the one who suggested it in the first place. OP never said anything about being depressed. That was all you, trying to practice medicine without a medical license.

Can we just establish some facts here, people?

Yes, antidepressants can take up to 4 weeks to take effect (longer than that is very exceptional). The operant phrase here is "up to"; on the two occasions in my life when I was prescribed them, they took precisely 3 days.

Remember that?

There are plenty of genuinely depressed people who respond rapidly to antidepressants...that's why the medical advice is vague about exactly when they will begin to work. Also, a point which I think you might be missing is that we are only talking about when these drugs BEGIN to take effect; of course, they will usually take a while longer to reach a plateau.

Or that?

I know this because I have suffered from depression and have taken antidepressants - but I am also a registered mental health nurse and have witnessed various people's responses to antidepressants with my own eyes.

That either? Very little of anything that you stated there is actually "fact". Observations are not fact. Personal perspective is not fact. And don't even get me started on the blatant misinformation you tried to give regarding the "vagueness" of the medical "advice" (whatever that's supposed to mean) regarding response time. There is nothing remotely "vague" about it. It is very clear and concise.

What you seem to be referring to is psychomotor stimulation which is quite different from mood-brightening. There is first an improvement in psychomotor response; the mood-brightening effect occurs later. Psychomotor improvement wont, by itself, make a depressed person "feel like a million bucks"; to the contrary, it will increase the likelihood of someone with suicidal ideation of carrying out their plan. Many people have committed suicide in the initial stages of antidepressant therapy for this reason.

What I am referring to is a mood-brightening effect which I have experienced and have witnessed in some of my clients.

Any drug that causes euphoria can be considered "mood brightening". Pain medicine is a very good example of that, and morphine is actually prescribed for that very purpose in many cases. So you're actually contradicting yourself in that case, because it completely negates your own claim that you've seen "improvement" in your patients' mental health.

Also, a point which I think you might be missing is that we are only talking about when these drugs BEGIN to take effect; of course, they will usually take a while longer to reach a plateau.

but I am also a registered mental health nurse and have witnessed various people's responses to antidepressants with my own eyes.

I have known some patients with advanced dementia start to improve after 2 days. Obviously they had no clue what they were taking or why. So, not likely attributable to the placebo effect.

What you seem to be referring to is psychomotor stimulation which is quite different from mood-brightening. There is first an improvement in psychomotor response; the mood-brightening effect occurs later

Which is it? You can't make up your mind? Or did you forget which facsimile of the truth you posted? Luckily for you, all of your posts are still visible. And why would a person with dementia or severe, debilitating clinical depression be left in any type of environment where they would have an opportunity to commit suicide? Where did you say you got your nursing license again?

You are going fishing...unfortunately, this particular pond is all fished out. It would be better for you just to stop, at this point.

In the interests of Deny Ignorance I should point out that antidepressants wont improve mood and functioning in a person who isn't depressed. Not enough is known about the placebo effect to say anything worthwhile.

And finally, that is complete bunk as well. On both counts.

Please let's stick to the topic....

and not debate or bicker with one another...You are responsible for your own posts.

Go After the Ball, Not the Player!

a reply to: musicismagic

the natural ingredient which is in all of the anti depressants is vanilla this is the chemical that fits into the receptor do your research on it but watch the video you can use extract but not essence as the latter is synthetically made

www.youtube.com...

Holy cow....up until page three this was an ugly thread with some terrible ideas and misconceptions

Yes absolutely...only a medical doctor or a clinician can officially diagnose...but I don't think CJ was diagnosing...merely assuming that there was a depression issue based on the request for AD's

Yes THC can absolutely cause psychosis. Now the chance of it happening is quite slim and their is often an underlying capacity for psychosis. Not so much as say spice or a good dose of '___' or acid....but it absolutely does happen

OP....I hope you are well I really do and I know this is far too late as it is the 29th now but I wish you the best.

I am a master clinician and psychotherapist myself. Although I do not have the legal capacity to prescribe drugs, I have to be trained for advanced psychopharmacology.

With that said...understand that what I am telling you is not in anyway advice specific to you and I am not offering any official diagnosis or medical advice seeing as...well I'm lose my license...and plus it is straight up unethical

If you are indeed having severe anxiety, a low dose of something like Xanax or Ativan could be beneficial for a very short term. They are fast acting and last typically 4-6 and possibly 8 hours depending on your chemistry and metabolism. Benzodiazepines are a good class to help short term, moderate and sometimes severe anxiety. These classes don't work for depressed feelings/affect as much as they do for nervousness and anxiety issues. Klonopin can be used but should usually be used if the others don't help at all. The one thing to remember is that these are supposed to be short term on the order of days and potentially weeks.

As far as anti-depressants, there has been some good advice here. Most AD's are typically a lengthy process. The go to response is that the build up phase is 4-6 weeks. A few can begin a bit earlier than that. Their are several classes such as SSRI, SNRI, and atypicals. The older MAOI's are used infrequently due to many side effects. The one thing I can think of that can act rather quick is buproprion or Wellbutrin/Zyban depending where you are. Wellbutrin is an AD as well as an energizer. The issue here is that if anxiety is the main issue then it's not a terribly good idea as it can make anxiety worse.

I understand how you feel as a sufferer and a therapist/diagnostician myself. It takes a long time. If you are truly worried about anxiety exclusively, you can always try for a short term of a benzo

other options are Valerian root or Kava Kava but as with most natural treatments their is very limited study and belief in efficacy. If the Kava kava is legit, make sure you don't have any liver or kidney issues

either way I know this was too late...but good luck and I hope you find healing my friend

It took years for me to realize that I was suffering from anxiety, until that sinking feeling got worse. I went to looking for a remedy that would not make me addicted, I could buy very easily, and no real side effects, so I did a massive search online and found 3 products that I thought might help.

I am NOT recommending these things, these are just things that I know have worked for me.

I started with Valerian root, though its to regulate sleep it could help with "those" feelings.

Then Kava root, which is supposed to be a muscle relaxer/mood stabilizer.

And L-Thenanine. After trying them all the only one that worked was the L-Thenanine. I order it online from Amazon, or can drive to Walmart and buy it right off the shelves. It has helped me immensely with not just my day to day, but overall sleep as well.

Kave and Valerian root did not work for me. On my search for the perfect over the counter solution to not putting any money into big pharma, I made sure to check the "side effects" the one that I have actually experienced is lucid dreaming, and VERY vivid dreams, but for those that are like YAY! I want that, if you have a nightmare it is JUST as real.

So, all in all, before (IMHO) you get something that might be addictive, try other options especially if its a temporary thing, it took about 3 days for the L-Thenanine to kick in, its all herbal and over the counter.

I hope things work out. Good luck.

To my good friends here at ATS. I got to see my doctor. It is sad, since my condition is hereditary and I have no control over the malfunctions of my mental capacity at times. My doctor recommended that building up my self defence mechanism is the best approach without meds. My professional background has been that of a license contractor and real estate broker. For those reading this, years ago my VA health professional said, "do you have any talents". She never asked me at the next visit, I knew that I'd have to surivie without govt help for the next 22 years on her question. This becomes so clear when you live outside your native country, makes you strong up until that day...

originally posted by: Mugly

originally posted by: paraphi
my nephew has cannabis induced psychosis.

bull#
he absolutely does not

Are you related to the poster and know something we don't ?
because marijuana can cause severe mental breakdowns that are not talked about A friend of mine was writing a book on it, it took him 12 years to write he went to prison trapped some big Turkish mafia gangsters and ended up having the police seize the book. yes marijuana is nowhere near as dangerous as alcohol or come to that pharmaceutical drugs but if you have got the wrong constitution it can mangle you and is not to be poked fun at when someone does have a breakdown.

a reply to: musicismagic

Sometimes OP, the best medicine is to just try and talk about it. Bottling things up and making yourself feel alone in your situation will probably just add to it.

If you ever feel like just letting it out Im always open.

a reply to: ThinkB4USpeak2Me

It's very frustrating how much anxiety can mimic depression...I think that's why it's important to get an exam, because things are almost never just as they seem. I've got an aunt who was misdiagnosed for years with depression; when she finally saw a shrink it turned out to be anxiety, and in turn was being caused by a hormone imbalance that was actually threatening her life. And it's hereditary, so everyone in the immediate family is at risk as well.

a reply to: musicismagic

OP, the trick is to change things in your lifestyle for the long-term rather than look for a quick fix to your problem. If you know that certain aspects of your life are contributing to you feeling this way, perhaps this is a sign that you might want to simply erase those things from your environment. Sometimes the hardest thing to do is walk away from what no longer serves you.

originally posted by: tigertatzen
a reply to: musicismagic

If you know that certain aspects of your life are contributing to you feeling this way, perhaps this is a sign that you might want to simply erase those things from your environment. Sometimes the hardest thing to do is walk away from what no longer serves you.

Yeah whatever, dude! (or dudess in your case, lol).

Truth is... life just sucks for 99% of us and then you just eventually die off. As tragic as it sounds, its just the truth of matter.

You just need to accept reality for what it is, that's the secret to getting past all this mental illness nonsense.

It ain't nothing but a meaningless ride.... so just kick back and take it as it comes. It won't last long anyway, so why worry about it?