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Hawker Hunter crashes at airshow; multiple dead reported

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posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 01:14 PM
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a reply to: slider1982

It's extremely difficult even for highly trained pilots to tell altitude from the ground, especially in a video that provides odd perspectives at times. That's why crucifying the pilot five minutes later is insane. The AAIB will come out with their report which will be based on facts, not emotion.




posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 01:47 PM
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Interesting comment here.

Any of you guys with display experience in comparable aircraft have any views on the selected figure which went wrong?
The initial approach was fast and low down the A axis from north to south. Logic would dictate that the only manoeuvre suitable on that axis would be a straight loop. The quarter clover that appears to have been carried out was commenced well before the field boundary and exited at 90 degrees to the A axis going roughly NW, well to the north of the display box which strikes me as an extremely odd selection, as the exit would have been towards the higher terrain at crowd right, and be barely visible to the main crowd line.
If the figure had been commenced at crowd centre, with a left roll, the aircraft would have bust the 230m line heading towards the crowd, which makes even less sense.
The manoeuvre does appear from the very clear video evidence to have been premeditated, but because of the lack of logic, maybe a subtle control problem cannot be ruled out yet?
I speak as a civvie display pilot (piston, not jet) of some years standing and a mate of the pilot.
www.pprune.org...

Mate of the pilot says lack of logic. Subtle control problem or aiming to impress a particular individual who may have been positioned by the road? If a control issue, logic dictates this possibility must be taken into account while flying fast and low.

I like the idea that police investigators will be following the online discussions. The possibility of attempting to impress a particular individual on the ground must be taken into account if no evidence of mechanical or medical problems is apparent.

I reiterate, I'm only here because of the deliberate harassment of travellers I saw carried out by some RAF low flyers in the 80's. Harassment which caused permanent psychological damage to children aged around two or three at the time.

I would like to say some of my friends are pilots but actually most of the pilots I know are egotistical prats or worse. Touching on the psychological aspects of flying enthusiasts. The tree surgeons, roofers and scaffolders I know all have a different outlook on life from the rest of us due to working at a height and looking down on the rest of us. I've experienced the haughtiness that is difficult to avoid just from horse riding and looking down on others. Is there a psychological aspect to flying that encourages the risking of others lives without due care?

I've only travelled by aircraft once in my adult life. It was a desperate mercy mission or I would never have done that. The thing that really struck me was the cold snobbishness of at least 90% of the passengers. As if flying makes you better than others.

I have no intention of offending those of you who love flying. But I am suggesting some display pilots may be prone to taking risks with innocent strangers lives that others would consider unacceptable.

Reading through the comments on that forum there are comments about a number of near misses at air shows. Near misses that are not learned from indicate a lack of contact with reality.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 01:50 PM
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a reply to: Kester

Some? You just said just about every pilot you know is egotistical and if you hadn't had to desperately fly you never would have.

Tell me again how you're not using a broad brush to label pilots.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:35 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

It's simple fact. If I knew other pilots I'd include them. Take rescue pilots or flying doctors for example. I've never known one. I did know an ex helicopter winchman and he was a hell of a guy. I'd be happy to put my life in his hands. I would never fly other than in extreme circumstances due to pollution considerations. That's just me. But this thread isn't about us, is it.

Here's what is said to be possibly what was intended.

B Axis run in,
¼ Clover to A Axis,
Derry wing over,
Barrel Roll,
½ Cuban,
4 point roll,
Max rate turn,
Derry to A axis,
Wing over,
Slow roll,
Reverse ½ Cuban (lazy),
Canadian break to land.
www.pprune.org...

This will make sense to many of you who must be wondering what was intended.

I've been reading about cover-ups and near misses. Many near misses seem to be only obvious to experienced observers. I've known near misses in other areas to be passed off as highly skilled manoeuvres.

I've also been reading about the financial side of air shows. There are many vested interests in the eventual outcome of this tragic event. The truth may well be twisted to suit those who benefit from this form of entertainment.

It's also being said that old folks in old aircraft should act their age and be graceful. Leave the fancy stuff to younger, fitter pilots in more modern aircraft. We have to accept the restrictions of age. It's a long time since I was fit enough to jump onto the back of a trotting horse. I'd look like a right chump if I tried it now.

What's most important in my eyes is dissuading those who would otherwise take risks with innocent lives.

I suspect what's most important for some is offering a myriad of excuses so they can carry on endangering innocent lives for fun and profit.
edit on 25 8 2015 by Kester because: remove word



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:49 PM
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a reply to: Kester

If you're bothering to follow this you must have seen the story about the fatigue life of the aircraft that came out, right? You know, the one that showed the airframe had 70% of its life left and could have flown until something life 2040. This aircraft was in better shape than most aircraft in the US AND UK military combined.

As for the pilot, I've known plenty of arrogant pilots, and every single one of them had two things in common. They would never deliberately do anything to put people on the ground at risk, and they would gladly ride an aircraft into the ground to ensure no one on the ground was hurt.

Arrogance on the ground does not translate to doing stupid things in the air. That's obvious from how many airshows there are every year, how many accidents have occurred, and how few people have been injured or killed in recent years.

Most airshows barely break even afterwards. These are not huge money makers. Many of them that do make profits turn around and donate most of it to charity. Military airshows tend to make more. The 2015 Miramar show made a whopping $2.6M. They paid out over $1M to do it. Being military all of that goes to base organizations.



posted on Aug, 26 2015 @ 12:45 PM
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a reply to: Kester

The display routine that you posted is actually the one used by Flight Commander Chris Heames from RAF Syerston, also in a Hunter. That may be what was planned but we will never know unless the cockpit sequence card is found. And that is very doubtful.
I will add that such an accident would be very unlikely in the US. In order to have an airshow here, a formal written waiver of relevant regulations must be obtained from the FAA. And the usual Special Provisions require that any roadways underlying the display area must be closed to traffic and cleared of all people during the display.



posted on Aug, 28 2015 @ 08:39 AM
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Something was wrong with the aircraft. Video of it on takeoff showed that it didn't get airborne until almost the end of the runway, as opposed to where it normally did, about halfway down the runway.



posted on Aug, 28 2015 @ 11:51 AM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

Would that suggest a lack of power from the engines?

In which case, it begs the question why he went ahead with the display...



posted on Aug, 28 2015 @ 12:02 PM
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a reply to: stumason

Most likely. I've seen aircraft have engine problems on takeoff, get airborne and everything seemed normal once they were in the air.

We had a -135 takeoff twice with a fire warning light. The second time they pulled power back and it stayed out so they kept going.

Even with fighters I've seen problems on takeoff just go away in flight and not repeat itself ever again.



posted on Aug, 28 2015 @ 12:04 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

Like any machine then - my old car's turbo had issues for a bit, huffed and puffed on the way home one night, belching smoke. When I took it down the garage, nothing wrong... I suspected the EGR valve had stuck and it sorted itself after some heavy revving..

Do display jets like these carry FDR/CVR's?



posted on Aug, 28 2015 @ 12:05 PM
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a reply to: stumason

Not the older ones. They've only recently started putting recorders in fighters.



posted on Aug, 28 2015 @ 12:09 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

Well, that's going to make life tricky for the AAIB...



posted on Aug, 28 2015 @ 12:12 PM
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a reply to: stumason

Yeah, older aircraft accident investigation is always difficult. The videos will play a big role. Engine noise, etc. Interestingly they'll be able to tell if any warning lights were lit at impact from the wreckage.

An engine problem would make sense with the description of the loop. He wasn't even close to the altitude or shape of a normal loop.



posted on Aug, 28 2015 @ 04:02 PM
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originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: stumason

Yeah, older aircraft accident investigation is always difficult. The videos will play a big role. Engine noise, etc. Interestingly they'll be able to tell if any warning lights were lit at impact from the wreckage.

An engine problem would make sense with the description of the loop. He wasn't even close to the altitude or shape of a normal loop.


From looking at the video, it appears that the intended maneuver was not a normal loop, but was, rather, a variation of an air combat maneuver called a looping displacement roll, or what the airshow people call a quarter clover, where a roll is integrated into a looping figure with the result of the exit heading being 90 degrees from the entry heading. This maneuver dissipates more energy than a vanilla loop since the aileron displacement needed for the roll creates a great deal of induced drag. While a normal loop can be performed in with no net loss of altitude, I always planned on a loss of at least 200 feet in a 1/4 clover.



posted on Aug, 29 2015 @ 02:53 AM
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Just before he goes over the top of the loop there's a quick flash. It appears he may have suffered a compressor stall just as he started over the top.



posted on Aug, 29 2015 @ 05:37 PM
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Someone mentioned about it taking the plane a long time to get off the ground. One of the articles I was reading said that he was carrying external wing tanks and if I'm not mistaken they said they had fuel in them ....hence the huge fireball. Not really sure what to make of that. Why would you carry external fuel tanks into an aerobatics show what possible good could they do you?
That fact coupled with the fact that he seemed to maintain a "target/ destinatination " seems awefully incriminating...I mean loaded fuel tanks in an areobatics show ? Did anyone else read that?



posted on Aug, 29 2015 @ 05:43 PM
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a reply to: HarryJoy

He was carrying externals, but it's not clear if they were loaded with fuel or not. We don't know anything about the fuel load he was carrying at the time. They make the aircraft a little easier to see, as they make a slightly larger visual area, as well as making it look better.

If he had a mechanical issue, externals or not becomes largely irrelevant.


In June 1998 a Hawker Hunter - similar to the one destroyed at Shoreham - crashed at Dunsfold Airfield in Surrey where the BBC filmed Top Gear - while practicing for an air show, killing its 42-year-old pilot.
During the investigation, the AAIB looked at previous incidents involving Hawker Hunters, including several incidents while the jets were still in service with the RAF.
The researchers discovered that between 1980 and 1992 there were 22 incidents involving Hawker Hunters where the jet's engines malfunctioned and caused 'unexplained power reductions'.

In some cases, the pilots automatically began the emergency process for restarting the aircraft's engine. However, if the aircraft's throttle was not completely closed when the pilot flicked a crucial switch controlling the fuel pump, too much fuel was forced into the engine, leading to its immediate destruction.
In most cases, the cause of the power reduction could not be identified.
During the 1998 crash, the AAIB believed that the pilot - who only had eight hours experience on the Hawker Hunter - may have mistakenly flicked the HPPIS switch with the throttle open.



A video has emerged showing an orange flash appear from the Hawker Hunter moments before the aircraft plunged into the A27, killing 11 people.
One expert said he was positive the flare was connected to the jet's tragic accident, adding that it 'definitely' could have contributed to the crash.
Julian Bray, an aviation security and airline operations expert, said he was almost certain the flash was a flame or flare from the aircraft - in other words the fire went out in the jet itself.
He said: 'This suggests it was a flameout, which means somehow the engine has either stopped or restarted.
'Something is definitely not right. This particular aircraft does not have an afterburner on it so usually you don't see any form of orange flare at the back.
'It's very brief but that would be enough to cut the jet completely.
'It would be enough to throw the plane out of alignment so the pilot would have to wrestle to get it back into the loop.
'It definitely could have contributed to the crash. I think it's a series of failures, but this is definitely the major one.
'The pilot would be using all his skill essentially flying a dead stick jet aircraft. Essentially he had no overall control.
'A pilot with modern day, fly-by-wire skills alone would not have been able to do this. This pilot probably saved many more lives.'

www.dailymail.co.uk... E-SECOND.html
edit on 8/29/2015 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2015 @ 06:21 PM
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Come back to this after a few days, can see from dashcam video why it appears the right wing dips as he tried to get control, NVM. On the question of the pilot's skill, i have read that he used to fly Harriers, that fact alone to me is a testament to his ability. However age could have been a factor in reaction time but tbh im still on the plane side of the fence rather than the pilot.

I guess he could have had a brain fart and tried to thrust vector with nozzles that weren't there but that is so far out there its just not funny.
edit on 29-8-2015 by kountzero because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2015 @ 06:23 PM
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originally posted by: Zaphod58
Just before he goes over the top of the loop there's a quick flash. It appears he may have suffered a compressor stall just as he started over the top.

I also saw the flash in the video but think it more likely to be the momentary reflection of the sun as the jet rolled near the apex of the maneuver. An analysis of the sound from the various videos would be better evidence of a compressor stall. And I did n't note any puffs of black smoke which usually accompany a compressor stall. For an example, see www.youtube.com...



posted on Aug, 29 2015 @ 06:26 PM
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a reply to: F4guy

I didn't see any either, but I've seen other compressor stalls that didn't leave any smoke. Quite a few actually. Multiple investigators that watched the video seem to think the engine flamed out after that flash. It didn't sound like it cut out completely, which is why I said compressor stall.
edit on 8/29/2015 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



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