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Fascism Is Far Left, Not Far Right on Political Spectrum

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posted on Aug, 30 2015 @ 07:57 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

Well, you could, but you'd also have to agree on the definitions of all those words!!

Could get sticky.

I think it would be an interesting measure of individual impressions but it would be hard to have a "final word" through this method - fascism is complex and based in messy history, but it would certainly clarify positions!

- AB


ETA: I crack myself up. "Hard to have a 'final word' through this method" - yeah, like throwing words back and forth has really lead to a grand conclusion. LOL!


edit on 30-8-2015 by AboveBoard because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 30 2015 @ 08:02 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

How many times have we heard, even from the OP, "they are all the same".


This would be my personal description of the German Nazi Party

Anarchy 00000|XXXXX Authoritarianism

Classism 00XXX|00000 Egalitarianism

They can agree with you on the first part and argue about how socialist governments like the Nazi's were egalitarian because they were socialist and socialism means equal misery for all.



posted on Aug, 30 2015 @ 08:05 PM
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a reply to: daskakik
a reply to: Deaf Alien
a reply to: AboveBoard

Agreed. I really want to find some rational, reasonable, accurate way to measure these qualities though, LOL.

Le sigh.
edit on 20Sun, 30 Aug 2015 20:06:39 -050015p082015866 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 30 2015 @ 08:14 PM
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I suppose I can just transpose in my head the word forms of "left" when "right-wingers" use it, and vice-versa.

So, yes, given that, I can now agree with the OP's premise that Fascism is Far Left*.

(Actually, fascism is authoritarian, but who's counting, eh?)





*If by Left we mean Right



posted on Aug, 30 2015 @ 09:42 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
I suppose I can just transpose in my head the word forms of "left" when "right-wingers" use it, and vice-versa.

Yeah but you will be forced into read-only mode.



posted on Aug, 30 2015 @ 10:56 PM
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a reply to: xuenchen


Good idea !!

But not now.




Maybe like an straight carbon chain Organic Molecule with side chains.

Material Science has phase diagrams that cover the whole Cartesian graph.

or like a tree with leaves of real governments and roots of government philosophies.

I have heard Libertarians say that politics and psychology should be more like Chemistry and Biology than Math or Physics.

It is valid to isolate one variable, as long as everybody knows there are other variables.



posted on Aug, 30 2015 @ 11:09 PM
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edit on 30-8-2015 by Semicollegiate because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 30 2015 @ 11:32 PM
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originally posted by: Semicollegiate





Not bad.




posted on Aug, 31 2015 @ 10:05 AM
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a reply to: xuenchen

Do the higher or lower positions mean something?

In the end it's just as easy to stop using left/right and just say on a scale of one to ten, 1 being anarchy and 10 being totalitatrianism, government X was a Y.



posted on Aug, 31 2015 @ 10:14 AM
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originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: xuenchen

Do the higher or lower positions mean something?

In the end it's just as easy to stop using left/right and just say on a scale of one to ten, 1 being anarchy and 10 being totalitatrianism, government X was a Y.


Well start if off.




posted on Aug, 31 2015 @ 10:53 AM
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a reply to: xuenchen

It is still an incomplete picture and people will still argue about any given position.

For example, Fascism would be a seven. Before I explain that let me show you my drivers permit scale

1. No permite needed
2. Registration needed
3. Registration, nominal fee charged
5. Registration, nominal fee charged, must pass test
7. Registration, must pass test, pay fee for right to drive
8.Registration, must pass test, pay fee for right to drive, must show that it helps the nation
10. Government hand picks how gets to drive

In the second and third nobody is denied. You just pay a filing fee and/or supply your personal info. Sounds minarchist.

The rest explain themselves.

What was the point of this? Well taking Italian Fascism we see that the government directed the economy but that it allowed individuals to set up whatever businesses they wished but they had to pay to operate.

Comparing that to the driving permit scale it just doesn't sound like a 10. It actually sounds more like a 7.

You could argue that they were authoritarian in other ways. They sure were. I'm sure if someone graphs out all their activities and does it honestly, then adds them up and averages them out they may not get past 8 and might even fall below 7.

So does this mean that they are right-wing or left-wing? Maybe you should think about how loaded that question is and who did the loading.


edit on 31-8-2015 by daskakik because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-8-2015 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 31 2015 @ 12:05 PM
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a reply to: daskakik

You forgot that in fascism you had to qualify by being of a "legitimate" race or ethnicity or you would not be allowed to sign up to drive. Gotta keep the roads clear for the Pure Ones!!



posted on Aug, 31 2015 @ 12:24 PM
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originally posted by: AboveBoard
a reply to: daskakik

You forgot that in fascism you had to qualify by being of a "legitimate" race or ethnicity or you would not be allowed to sign up to drive. Gotta keep the roads clear for the Pure Ones!!



That may not have been a totally "Fascist" policy.

Spain under Franco may not have been "anti-Jewish", because Spain accepted Jewish refugees fleeing from German occupied areas (I think).

We need to verify the "anti any specific ethnic group" was a universal Fascist policy.

Not sure.

And don't forget the USSR had anti-ethnic policies and laws also.

China did and still might.




posted on Aug, 31 2015 @ 12:34 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: xuenchen

Do the higher or lower positions mean something?

In the end it's just as easy to stop using left/right and just say on a scale of one to ten, 1 being anarchy and 10 being totalitatrianism, government X was a Y.


Higher or lower could mean something. It would not mean as much as death tolls due to government, from economically forced starvation, outright execution, or war.

100 million-------10 millions-------millions-------100,000s-------10,000s

Logarithmic scale of Death by Government.
edit on 31-8-2015 by Semicollegiate because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-8-2015 by Semicollegiate because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-8-2015 by Semicollegiate because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-8-2015 by Semicollegiate because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 31 2015 @ 12:34 PM
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a reply to: AboveBoard

That didn't apply in italy which is why I specifically said italian fascism.

But that is a good example of not being able to just lump everyone together. You have to make graphs of all relevant activities for each and every group you want to measure. You can average them out and apply the average to the group.

In the end it seems like a lot of work for nothing, since you have done away with left/right, you can't apply it to the two sides that have been pitted against each other.



posted on Aug, 31 2015 @ 12:39 PM
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a reply to: Semicollegiate

Then it's just the same scale as the one in the OP.

Choose and plot the government in question throw in a few others along the line for reference.



posted on Aug, 31 2015 @ 12:46 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

But that is a good example of not being able to just lump everyone together. You have to make graphs of all relevant activities for each and every group you want to measure. You can average them out and apply the average to the group.



And you need to measure the negative/positive impacts on the majority of an affected population both within and outside a government "authority" boundary.




posted on Aug, 31 2015 @ 12:49 PM
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originally posted by: xuenchen

originally posted by: AboveBoard
a reply to: daskakik

You forgot that in fascism you had to qualify by being of a "legitimate" race or ethnicity or you would not be allowed to sign up to drive. Gotta keep the roads clear for the Pure Ones!!



That may not have been a totally "Fascist" policy.

Spain under Franco may not have been "anti-Jewish", because Spain accepted Jewish refugees fleeing from German occupied areas (I think).

We need to verify the "anti any specific ethnic group" was a universal Fascist policy.

Not sure.

And don't forget the USSR had anti-ethnic policies and laws also.

China did and still might.



Goldberg said that Italian Fascism had Jews in high Party positions until the NAZIs insisted that they be removed about 1938. Goldberg doesn't say much about Franco.

Joshua D. Zimmerman from the Cambridge Press wrote

With the third highest survival rate after Denmark and Bulgaria, a consensus emerged that Italian Fascist persecution of Jews was not only mild but that Mussolini, the Italian armed forces, Italian civilians, and many church officials consistently protected Jews throughout the war years. Many scholars do not dispute the fact that while Nazi Germany began its genocidal assault on European Jewry in June 1941, Fascist Italy, as long as it remained a sovereign state, became a haven of safety and security not only for Italian Jews but for thousands of Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi persecution in both the peninsula as well as the Italian-occupied zones of France, Greece, and Croatia.
assets.cambridge.org...

Cambridge University Press
0521841011 - Jews in Italy under Fascist and Nazi rule, 1922-1945 - Edited by Joshua D. Zimmerman
Excerpt



posted on Aug, 31 2015 @ 12:53 PM
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originally posted by: xuenchen
And you need to measure the negative/positive impacts on the majority of an affected population both within and outside a government "authority" boundary.

No you don't. That will just give you the graph in the OP. That is a graph unto itself.



posted on Aug, 31 2015 @ 01:09 PM
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a reply to: daskakik


Then it's just the same scale as the one in the OP.


The truth tends to verify itself by giving the same answer from different angles of approach.

One reason why propaganda works, is that the same slogan is stated in different contexts and in different ways, which gives the propaganda's idea the one of the qualities of truth.



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