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Fascism Is Far Left, Not Far Right on Political Spectrum

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posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 06:37 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Semicollegiate

I personally wouldn't consider the Soviet Union or China particularly leftist; I would consider them totalitarian.

Marxist theory is leftist for the most part; I'm really trying to play nice.

Either drop the snide innuendo or prepare to receive it back in abundance.


Totalitarian is leftist. Left is state control. Totalitarian would be state control which would be left.


Absolutely not. Totalitarianism is neither purely right nor left but has been used by both (and neither).

The Left is the antithesis of "state control" from beginning to end.


Not quite.

On the European axis, the left is socialism/communism which makes big noises about how the people are really in control, but in practice the "state" is always administered for "the greater good" by a bunch of so-called elites. The actual people wind up with the worst of everything assuming they get anything at all. If you want to see end-stage socialism go do some research on Venezuela.

The European right is fascism which is equally "state" controlled.

Arguing over which side is more or less authoritarian or totalitarian in theory when in practice they are both equally tyrannical to the people who have the misfortune to live under them.

In the US, you are talking an axis that flows between total state control and anarchy with the ideal government stopping just short of total anarchy -> minarchism. So, it doesn't matter what you think about this or that statist philosophy, if the end result is total state control, it falls on the left in the US political axis.




posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 06:39 PM
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originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Like I wrote, the "greatest number" by definition of the phrase "greatest number" need not be everyone. So not every one gets "equality before the laws". For those left out of the "greatest number" there is no expectation of "equality before the laws" and their individual rights are not protected-- concentration camp victims for example.

If the left is going to protect everyone's individual rights and freedom, why do you need the part about the laws? The only reason for just laws are to protect individual rights, which are already protected. Unless the more important part is the "greater number".

You want your cake and to eat it too. Typical Lefty.

My definition of the Left.

Governance that can rule or legislate over any human activity. Totalitarianism.

My definition of the Right.

Social behavior that respects the rights of others. Anarcho-Capitalism.

What about respecting the right of gays/lesbians to marry?

Is that a Right or Left issue?

Or does that just not count because of religion?



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 06:45 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

You have opinions on European politics. Great.

You incorrectly tried to tie leftist politics to totalitarianism in your previous post. I corrected you.

If you didn't want to explore "totalitarianism" why did you bring it up?

The political left in the US is effectively the Democratic party (and possibly the Greens and American Communists).

To say the Democrats are totalitarians is just patently absurd.


edit on 18Tue, 25 Aug 2015 18:46:34 -050015p062015866 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 06:48 PM
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originally posted by: Semicollegiate
My definition of the Left.

Governance that can rule or legislate over any human activity. Totalitarianism.

My definition of the Right.

Social behavior that respects the rights of others. Anarcho-Capitalism.

What's in the center or do you just see things black or white?



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 06:55 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ketsuko

You have opinions on European politics. Great.

You incorrectly tried to tie leftist politics to totalitarianism in your previous post. I corrected you.

If you didn't want to explore "totalitarianism" why did you bring it up?

The political left in the US is effectively the Democratic party (and possibly the Greens and American Communists).

To say the Democrats are totalitarians is just patently absurd.



Your argument style is like a TV debate. You ignore a lot, quickly too.

Have you been on TV?



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 07:00 PM
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originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ketsuko

You have opinions on European politics. Great.

You incorrectly tried to tie leftist politics to totalitarianism in your previous post. I corrected you.

If you didn't want to explore "totalitarianism" why did you bring it up?

The political left in the US is effectively the Democratic party (and possibly the Greens and American Communists).

To say the Democrats are totalitarians is just patently absurd.



Your argument style is like a TV debate. You ignore a lot, quickly too.

Have you been on TV?


Maybe Jerry Springer?



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 07:06 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

I personally wouldn't consider the Soviet Union or China particularly leftist; I would consider them totalitarian.



Now I've heard everything.

The statement of the Century !!




posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 07:09 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
My definition of the Left.

Governance that can rule or legislate over any human activity. Totalitarianism.

My definition of the Right.

Social behavior that respects the rights of others. Anarcho-Capitalism.

What's in the center or do you just see things black or white?


You didn't answer my question. I asked you first.

What is your definition of the Left?

The center is whatever the default condition is. Currently the voting center is Left. The apolitical center is typically right, because politically active people, as a rule, are Left. (true right politicians are Cincinnatus Minute Man Militia Temporary Crisis Amateur Politicians)

Democracy is supposed to be one of the checks and balances of the Constitution. Mostly as a stop-that-new-thing veto. If all of the people really knew enough science and history to make an informed choice about creating new institutions, then no government would be necessary, even for socialists.


edit on 25-8-2015 by Semicollegiate because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 07:13 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

Note: I do not include "socialist" or "socialism" because those are terms that describe an economy not a government.




But Social programs require massive authoritarian financial policies only government can accomplish.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 07:24 PM
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originally posted by: Semicollegiate
You didn't answer my question. I asked you first.

I honestly don't know.


The center is whatever the default condition is.

And this is why.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 07:27 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

The Left is the antithesis of "state control" from beginning to end.


Wrong. I cannot begin to emphasize how wrong.

The only way I could see this statement as true is if Left -> Classical Liberalism.

But since a) Classical Liberalism -> Modern Conservatism, USA Right Wing,
and b) The Left -> Modern Left wing and European Right wing:

1) State control by definition requires a large government
2) Modern Left wing policies (ie socialism, communism, progressivism, statism) promote large government
3) Ergo, state control requires Modern Left wing policies

addendum...

4) State control leads to fascism
5) Ergo, Modern Left wing policies lead to fascism

It's a pretty straightforward proof

I can only come to the conclusion that some people have either been taught their civics incorrectly or cling tenaciously to the utopian ideal that humanity simply has not found the right leaders to run a successful socialist/communist/progressive/statist society, and we just need to keep trying and trying (no matter how many people are killed along the way.)

Any ideology that increases the size and power of government (no matter the intentions or claims of greater good, equality, etc) must take liberty away from the People. Every little piece of freedom taken away means a little more force is put upon the citizen. This is the way of government. This is what the true classical liberal Founders sought to overcome with a Constitution that put restraints on federal government.

“Government is not reason, it is not eloquence,—it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant, and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.” - George Washington

The GOP does have progressives in it. They promote Modern Left policies. They are the reason we have seen little true conservatism from the GOP since Reagan, and even then he had to fight for what he accomplished. They are the reason why people say there is no real difference in voting for Democrats or Republicans. And when we do get a standout person who promotes true conservatism (Cruz, Walker, Haley, Brewer, Malkin, West, Scalia, Thomas, Carson, etc) they are attacked from both sides of the aisle.

True Conservatives (ie 'USA Right Wing') do not promote state control authoritarianism. Saying otherwise is willful ignorance. Sorry, that's just the way I see it. Not an insult, just an observation.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 07:35 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ketsuko

You have opinions on European politics. Great.

You incorrectly tried to tie leftist politics to totalitarianism in your previous post. I corrected you.

If you didn't want to explore "totalitarianism" why did you bring it up?

The political left in the US is effectively the Democratic party (and possibly the Greens and American Communists).

To say the Democrats are totalitarians is just patently absurd.



I said the axis runs from total state control to anarchy in the US. Those are two extremes. We move our government along that line from left to right.

The left wants ever more government and ever more control, ever more power. The extreme of that desire and need is eventually a totalitarian state, but you're fooling yourself if you think any system that purports to operate itself in a centrally planned manner as communism, socialism, fascism and their like do can operate without a total control government to enforce such grandiose economic and social schemes.

The tighter the control and more there is, the further left we are headed until we end up in a totalitarian society no matter what road we started down to get there.

I can't help it if the Democrat Party in the US is currently the one that identifies most closely with the causes and aims of the American left. I have a hunch it has more to do with their lust for power than for any real care they have for you though.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 07:49 PM
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posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 08:01 PM
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originally posted by: Greven

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Like I wrote, the "greatest number" by definition of the phrase "greatest number" need not be everyone. So not every one gets "equality before the laws". For those left out of the "greatest number" there is no expectation of "equality before the laws" and their individual rights are not protected-- concentration camp victims for example.

If the left is going to protect everyone's individual rights and freedom, why do you need the part about the laws? The only reason for just laws are to protect individual rights, which are already protected. Unless the more important part is the "greater number".

You want your cake and to eat it too. Typical Lefty.

My definition of the Left.

Governance that can rule or legislate over any human activity. Totalitarianism.

My definition of the Right.

Social behavior that respects the rights of others. Anarcho-Capitalism.

What about respecting the right of gays/lesbians to marry?

Is that a Right or Left issue?

Or does that just not count because of religion?


Adults can make any contract they want to. Marriage is a contract.

Religion is between you and the greatest possible reality. Anything involving more than one person is voluntary. Except for crime. Criminals have incurred a debt to their victims that must be repaid. No prison, just repayment.

According to Anarcho-Capitalism.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 08:04 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko



Collectivism does not need responsibility to self. It is a collective. There is no "self" in the greater good of all. To have self is to be separate from the collective.

What a load of crap.

The "self" decides/chooses to contribute to the COLLECTIVE, knowing that their own needs will be met, as well as those of their fellow participants. There's no dictation of what the person chooses to do IN ORDER TO CONTRIBUTE TO the society.

That leaves "self" TOTALLY IN TACT. It is a conscious, negotiated deal.....

"I will do this part, which is consistent with my skills and education....but, I don't have skills in this other part...so, you do this other part, which is consistent with your skills and education. Then we both can do well. We each pitch in our skills and talents."

I don't lay bricks, but I speak another language. If you need to learn that language, and I need some brickwork, we can trade. We BOTH come out with what we need.


Deal?


edit on 8/25/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)

edit on 8/25/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 08:06 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

It is not a conscious decision when the state compels it as all socialist states do.

Stay up to speed with the discussion.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 08:07 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Oh NO YOU DIDN'T!!!

Wow.

I am totally up to speed.

You're the one that seems to totally misunderstand the entire concept. Deliberately, I might add. But, I'll just leave it at "seems".
Willful ignorance, I believe, is what it's called. And you bloody well KNOW IT.

Give me a freaking break, "me-me-me".



edit on 8/25/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 08:09 PM
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originally posted by: Teikiatsu
Wrong. I cannot begin to emphasize how wrong.

The only way I could see this statement as true is if Left -> Classical Liberalism.

But since a) Classical Liberalism -> Modern Conservatism, USA Right Wing,
and b) The Left -> Modern Left wing and European Right wing:

1) State control by definition requires a large government
2) Modern Left wing policies (ie socialism, communism, progressivism, statism) promote large government
3) Ergo, state control requires Modern Left wing policies

addendum...

4) State control leads to fascism
5) Ergo, Modern Left wing policies lead to fascism

It's a pretty straightforward proof


Viral Facebook post says Barack Obama has lowest spending record of any recent president

Average percentage increase per year
Carter 1977 1981 16.4
Nixon 1969 1975 13.5
Johnson 1964 1969 11.0
George W. Bush 2001 2009 10.2
Reagan 1981 1989 8.6
Kennedy 1961 1964 7.1
George H.W. Bush 1989 1993 5.8
Clinton 1993 2001 4.0
Eisenhower 1953 1961 3.6
Obama 2009 2013 1.4

Who is for big government, again?

It does change slightly if you adjust for inflation...


Average percentage increase per year
Johnson 1964 1969 6.3
George W. Bush 2001 2009 5.9
Kennedy 1961 1964 4.7
Carter 1977 1981 4.2
Nixon 1969 1975 3.0
Reagan 1981 1989 2.7
George H.W. Bush 1989 1993 1.8
Clinton 1993 2001 1.5
Obama 2009 2013 -0.1
Eisenhower 1953 1961 -0.5

...GWB gets way worse.

Who is pushing for bigger government, again?
edit on 20Tue, 25 Aug 2015 20:10:33 -0500America/ChicagovAmerica/Chicago8 by Greven because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 08:14 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

And you are the classic example of a statist. You would happily sign everything over to a totalitarian state as it absolves you of any responsibility to have to make the tough choices about having to actually share what you have all on your own without the state power and authority stepping in to force you to do it.

So me-me-me right back atcha!




posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 08:14 PM
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originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Adults can make any contract they want to. Marriage is a contract.

Religion is between you and the greatest possible reality. Anything involving more than one person is voluntary. Except for crime. Criminals have incurred a debt to their victims that must be repaid. No prison, just repayment.

According to Anarcho-Capitalism.

You are avoiding the question.

Is it a Left or Right issue?



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