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Fascism Is Far Left, Not Far Right on Political Spectrum

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posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:22 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

The American right-wing (particularly in the last couple of decades) has desperately tried to assume the mantle of "small government, freedom-loving, patriots."

They try to characterize any and everyone they see as opponents (even moderates and centrists) as leftists, socialist, communists, etc. These people are also characterized as un-American, lazy, shiftless, atheist, parasites.

This is because one of the strongest lineages of American Conservatism does indeed arise directly out of the rapid anti-communist screed of McCarthy and John Birch.

Of course, the real ire of the American right-wing is not directed at the size of government, or even its invasive nature (in fact, conservatives love to support local-law enforcement overreach, and government-enforced religion) but at social welfare programs, educational programs, and of course, anything to do with protecting the environment.

Anything that threatens large-scale business interests, banking, the military-industrial complex, etc. is verbotten.

Also, particularly after Mr. Reagan and his grand coalition, you have the rabid-right wing Christians, NRA gun supporters, et. al. This actually points to one of the great weaknesses facing the Republican party presently: there are too many irons in their fire. No one has yet been able to juggle them all at once.


That is not a definition or description of the Left.

All arguments here depend on their definition of what is Left.

Do you have a definition of the Left that you use every time?




posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:25 PM
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a reply to: Semicollegiate

Says the person who typed "de facto centralized collectivistic authoritarianism" with a straight face.

I've provided both official and personal definitions of what left-wing means numerous times ... read back if you're interested.

The Nazi Party was far right-wing due to its adherence to autocratic, anti-democratic, racist hyper-nationalism ... to start.

That probably suffices for your purposes.

edit on 17Tue, 25 Aug 2015 17:34:40 -050015p052015866 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:29 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: ketsuko

Sounds like a flimsy excuse.

I think people might point at those on the "right" who are against freedom and shout "fascist" and they would be correct.

I understand that some like the idea that anything left of anarchy can be lumped together. Fine but one could still point out the differences. They are still there.


But if they are against freedom, are they properly on the right or are you just placing them there out of a matter of convenience because it suits you to do so and they happen to wear a certain letter after their name? Remember, Republican is not synonymous with "right" just because they stand as the opposition party to Democrats.

It used to be in vogue to argue that Phelps and his Westboro Loony Bin were "right" because they ostensibly were anti-gay and protested in the name of a church, but then someone dug up documents showing that Phelps was a registered Democrat and had run for office once for the party. Nowadays, it is generally agreed upon that WBC belongs to no side but their own.

I find that it often suits people of progressive mind-set to chuck mud at the other side and see what sticks. Fascism is part of that.
edit on 25-8-2015 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:30 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
What does the lefty spectrum look like with dictators on both ends?

I don't think I have ever seen a lefty spectrum.

Honestly, they would probably only have dictators on the right.



Then your argument is with the spectrum meme itself rather than any interpretation of it.

How do you define or describe the Left?



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:33 PM
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a reply to: Semicollegiate

Indeed, perhaps that's why I use the phrase "American right-wing" at the beginning of my first sentence.

Here, go with this:

Left-wing: Any political philosophy that generally recognizes the true value of government is primarily dedicated to the greatest equality before the laws for the greatest number of People while simultaneously protecting individual rights and freedom.

Note: I do not include "socialist" or "socialism" because those are terms that describe an economy not a government.
edit on 17Tue, 25 Aug 2015 17:37:15 -050015p052015866 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:35 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
But if they are against freedom, are they properly on the right or are you just placing them there out of a matter of convenience because it suits you to do so and they happen to wear a certain letter after their name? Remember, Republican is not synonymous with "right" just because they stand as the opposition party to Democrats.

That is why right was in commas.


I find that it often suits people of progressive mind-set to chuck mud at the other side and see what sticks. Fascism is part of that.

Yeah, they probably do that.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:37 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Semicollegiate

Says the person who typed "de facto centralized collectivistic authoritarianism" with a straight face.

I've provided both official and personal definitions of what left-wing means numerous times ... read back if you're interested.

The Nazi Party was far right-wing due to its adherence to autocratic, anti-democratic, racist hyper-nationalism to start.


As compared to the majority vote in Bolshevik Russia or Maoist China?

Do you remember your definition of the Left?

It might improve, really, as you restate it more often.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:38 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Semicollegiate

Indeed, perhaps that's why I use the phrase "American right-wing" at the beginning of my first sentence.

Here, go with this:

Left-wing: Any political philosophy that generally recognizes the true value of government is primarily dedicated to the greatest equality before the laws for the greatest number of People while simultaneously protecting individual rights and freedom.

Note: I do not include "socialist" or "socialism" because those are terms that describe an economy not a government.


Please define what you mean by "equality," "right" and "freedom."



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:38 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

The right-wing is authoritarian.

The brief flirtation of Republicans with Libertarian goals is already starting to fade.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:46 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Define what you mean by "please," "what" and "by."



C'mon Ketsuko. Look the words up in any standard dictionary if you're not familiar with them.

Oh heck, I'll play ... here:

Equality: equitable treatment of each human individual.

Right: a naturally-occurring human privilege and/or recognized by government.

Freedom: ability to live unmolested via the exercise of human rights under equitable laws.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:46 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66



edit on 25-8-2015 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:49 PM
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a reply to: Semicollegiate

I personally wouldn't consider the Soviet Union or China particularly leftist; I would consider them totalitarian.

Marxist theory is leftist for the most part; I'm really trying to play nice.

Either drop the snide innuendo or prepare to receive it back in abundance.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:52 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ketsuko

Define what you mean by "please," "what" and "by."



C'mon Ketsuko. Look the words up in any standard dictionary if you're not familiar with them.



Sure ... play dumb, but they have different meanings to different people depending on where they stand in the political spectrum.




Oh heck, I'll play ... here:

Equality: equitable treatment of each human individual.


Equitable treatment how? In what way exactly?


Right: a naturally-occurring human privilege and/or recognized by government.


No. Not quite. The only things you have a right to are those things that occur for you naturally like your life or the things you can provide for yourself like your property or your own self defense. Anything the government provides to you is at best a civil privilege. Anything you depend on someone else to have is not a "right."



Freedom: ability to live unmolested via the exercise of human rights under equitable laws.


Since we still don't quite know what you consider "equal" to go into "equitable," I can't commit on that, but already we likely differ quite a bit on human rights and exactly what those are and how far they extend.

And of course, you get enough laws and there isn't much room to live "unmolested" ... is there? And it doesn't really matter how "equitable" all those laws may be.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:53 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Semicollegiate

I personally wouldn't consider the Soviet Union or China particularly leftist; I would consider them totalitarian.

Marxist theory is leftist for the most part; I'm really trying to play nice.

Either drop the snide innuendo or prepare to receive it back in abundance.


Totalitarian is leftist. Left is state control. Totalitarian would be state control which would be left.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:56 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Semicollegiate

Indeed, perhaps that's why I use the phrase "American right-wing" at the beginning of my first sentence.

Here, go with this:

Left-wing: Any political philosophy that generally recognizes the true value of government is primarily dedicated to the greatest equality before the laws for the greatest number of People while simultaneously protecting individual rights and freedom.

Note: I do not include "socialist" or "socialism" because those are terms that describe an economy not a government.


The greatest number of people is not everybody. It could be as low as 51%

So the individual rights and freedom (actually liberty) is kind of superfluous.

By the relevant part of your definition, since the Nazi's took care of the majority of Germans, the NAZI's were on the Left.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 05:59 PM
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originally posted by: Semicollegiate
How do you define or describe the Left?

How do you define the center?



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 06:03 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66




I really like this response.



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 06:06 PM
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originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Semicollegiate

Indeed, perhaps that's why I use the phrase "American right-wing" at the beginning of my first sentence.

Here, go with this:

Left-wing: Any political philosophy that generally recognizes the true value of government is primarily dedicated to the greatest equality before the laws for the greatest number of People while simultaneously protecting individual rights and freedom.

Note: I do not include "socialist" or "socialism" because those are terms that describe an economy not a government.


The greatest number of people is not everybody. It could be as low as 51%

So the individual rights and freedom (actually liberty) is kind of superfluous.

By the relevant part of your definition, since the Nazi's took care of the majority of Germans, the NAZI's were on the Left.



Why don't you incorporate those elements into your own definition then? Can we expect that anytime soon?

Nazis were leftist by my definition? No, not even close. You obviously missed the "greatest equality before the laws for the greatest number of People while simultaneously protecting individual rights and freedom."



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 06:08 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Semicollegiate

I personally wouldn't consider the Soviet Union or China particularly leftist; I would consider them totalitarian.

Marxist theory is leftist for the most part; I'm really trying to play nice.

Either drop the snide innuendo or prepare to receive it back in abundance.


Totalitarian is leftist. Left is state control. Totalitarian would be state control which would be left.


Absolutely not. Totalitarianism is neither purely right nor left but has been used by both (and neither).

The Left is the antithesis of "state control" from beginning to end.
edit on 18Tue, 25 Aug 2015 18:14:58 -050015p062015866 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2015 @ 06:36 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Semicollegiate

Indeed, perhaps that's why I use the phrase "American right-wing" at the beginning of my first sentence.

Here, go with this:

Left-wing: Any political philosophy that generally recognizes the true value of government is primarily dedicated to the greatest equality before the laws for the greatest number of People while simultaneously protecting individual rights and freedom.

Note: I do not include "socialist" or "socialism" because those are terms that describe an economy not a government.


The greatest number of people is not everybody. It could be as low as 51%

So the individual rights and freedom (actually liberty) is kind of superfluous.

By the relevant part of your definition, since the Nazi's took care of the majority of Germans, the NAZI's were on the Left.



Why don't you incorporate those elements into your own definition then? Can we expect that anytime soon?

Nazis were leftist by my definition? No, not even close. You obviously missed the "greatest equality before the laws for the greatest number of People while simultaneously protecting individual rights and freedom."


Like I wrote, the "greatest number" by definition of the phrase "greatest number" need not be everyone. So not every one gets "equality before the laws". For those left out of the "greatest number" there is no expectation of "equality before the laws" and their individual rights are not protected-- concentration camp victims for example.

If the left is going to protect everyone's individual rights and freedom, why do you need the part about the laws? The only reason for just laws are to protect individual rights, which are already protected. Unless the more important part is the "greater number".

You want your cake and to eat it too. Typical Lefty.

My definition of the Left.

Governance that can rule or legislate over any human activity. Totalitarianism.

My definition of the Right.

Social behavior that respects the rights of others. Anarcho-Capitalism.



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