It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Fascism Is Far Left, Not Far Right on Political Spectrum

page: 32
23
<< 29  30  31    33  34  35 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 06:01 PM
link   

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Gryphon66

Whine about you? This isn't about you, sir/madam. I could care less about you.

The Nazi party leaders explicitly expressed that they were socialist. You've implied that they are lying. How are they lying?



If it's not about me, why do you keep talking about me? (Or to me for that matter.)

They also defined specifically what they meant by socialism, as has been shown over and over again, which was diametrically opposed to Marxism and Communism, and everything Marxist or Communist.

Do you need the quotes again in which it is clearly stated that Nazi socialism was merely another term for their nationalism?

Don't be coy now. Come up with some actual evidence. Show us the "socialist" acts of the Nazis ... you're so certain that you know what Goebbels, Hitler, et. al. actually meant ... show us.

What actions did they take that matches any generally accepted meaning of the word SOCIALISM (aside from the garbage presented here by right-wingers) rather than NATIONALISM?


edit on 18Mon, 24 Aug 2015 18:03:01 -050015p062015866 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 06:07 PM
link   
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

It would seem that way.



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 06:16 PM
link   
a reply to: Gryphon66

It sounds like you keep trying to make it about you, but it isn't, seriously. Is it impossible to have a discussion here?

I presented Goebbles views on this very issue. Here

Now here's the Nazi "25 point plan" Here

In practice, I'm not sure the Nazis utilized any socialist reforms. My only point was that they explicitly stated they were socialist. If you think they were lying, you might have to show how you know this, but I have no reason to believe they were lying.



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 06:23 PM
link   

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
In practice, I'm not sure the Nazis utilized any socialist reforms. My only point was that they explicitly stated they were socialist. If you think they were lying, you might have to show how you know this, but I have no reason to believe they were lying.

They said they were socialist but when in power they didn't implement any socialist reforms.

I'd say they were lying.



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 06:26 PM
link   
a reply to: daskakik




They said they were socialist but when in power they didn't implement any socialist reforms.

I'd say they were lying.


Socialism doesn't occur over night. All so-called socialist states in the world today call themselves "socialists", but very few, if any, would confirm to your preferable definition of socialism.

List of Socialist countries
edit on 24-8-2015 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 06:33 PM
link   
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

They were in power for over a decade.

My preferable definition? Didn't know I had such a thing. I know that there is a definition and even variations on the general theme but none of them are mine.

ETA:

Self-identification is the only criterion used by the list.

edit on 24-8-2015 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 06:38 PM
link   

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: ketsuko

The point is that no matter what the source some people just don't want to accept that there is a difference.

I don't even know what Hitler being socialist or not has to do with Fascism.



Italian Fascism



Fascists identified their primary opponents as the majority of socialists on the left who had opposed intervention in World War I.[104] The Fascists and the Italian political right held common ground: both held Marxism in contempt, discounted class consciousness and believed in the rule of elites.[107] The Fascists assisted the anti-socialist campaign by allying with the other parties and the conservative right in a mutual effort to destroy the Italian Socialist Party and labour organizations committed to class identity above national identity.[107]

Fascism sought to accommodate Italian conservatives by making major alterations to its political agenda;– abandoning its previous populism, republicanism, and anticlericalism, adopting policies in support of free enterprise, and accepting the Roman Catholic Church and the monarchy as institutions in Italy.[108] To appeal to Italian conservatives, Fascism adopted policies such as promoting family values, including promotion policies designed to reduce the number of women in the workforce limiting the woman's role to that of a mother. The fascists banned literature on birth control and increased penalties for abortion in 1926, declaring both crimes against the state.[109] Though Fascism adopted a number of positions designed to appeal to reactionaries, the Fascists sought to maintain Fascism's revolutionary character, with Angelo Oliviero Olivetti saying "Fascism would like to be conservative, but it will [be] by being revolutionary."[110] The Fascists supported revolutionary action and committed to secure law and order to appeal to both conservatives and syndicalists.[111]


From Wikipedia "Fascism" Source

Emphasis mine.


From your source:




Position in the political spectrum

Fascism was influenced by both left and right, conservative and anti-conservative, national and supranational, rational and anti-rational.[33] A number of historians regard fascism either as a revolutionary centrist doctrine, as a doctrine that mixes philosophies of the left and the right, or as both those things.[34][35] Fascism was founded during World War I by Italian national syndicalists who combined left-wing and right-wing political views.

Some scholars consider fascism right-wing because of its social conservatism and authoritarian means of opposing egalitarianism.[36][37] Roderick Stackelberg places fascism—including Nazism, which he says is "a radical variant of fascism"—on the right, explaining that, "The more a person deems absolute equality among all people to be a desirable condition, the further left he or she will be on the ideological spectrum. The more a person considers inequality to be unavoidable or even desirable, the further to the right he or she will be."[38] It should be noted all fascist regimes have been statists socialists with totalitarian centralized power.




posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 06:39 PM
link   
a reply to: daskakik




Self-identification is the only criterion used by the list.


Exactly.



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 06:47 PM
link   
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Exactly what?

If they don't implement any socialist reforms and call themselves socialists then they are lying as well.



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 06:52 PM
link   
a reply to: daskakik




Exactly what?

If they don't implement any socialist reforms and call themselves socialists then they are lying as well.


Or their definition of socialism doesn't conform to yours.



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 06:59 PM
link   
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

You presented Goebbles' propaganda statements on the "issue." I have no idea why you think or are trying to convince anyone here that propaganda is the same as open expression or some sort of expository oratorical rhetoric. You don't believe in dictionaries, and you don't use a standard definition of the word. There's nothing more to discuss with you on that issue.

Here's what Mr. Hitler said about propaganda: "All propaganda must be so popular and on such an intellectual level, that even the most stupid of those toward whom it is directed will understand it. Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise." (Source

Nazi propaganda was intended to mislead. Goebbels was the Minister of Propaganda. I'm not sure how to make that point any clearer.

BUT,


originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Gryphon66

In practice, I'm not sure the Nazis utilized any socialist reforms.


So, in practice, the Nazis were not socialists? Yes, that's what many of us have been saying for page after page.

I had read some of your posts before, and honestly, I've really wanted to think that you weren't really susceptible to the puerile argument that because the word "Socialist" was used in the Nazi party name that allows you or anyone to equate that with whatever you personally want "Socialist" to mean. That's conflation at best. Ignorance and deceit at worst.

Both Hitler and Goebbels TELL US that what they mean by Socialism in National Socialism is a nationalized glorification of German society, of all things GERMAN, to the exclusion of all things NOT GERMAN.

Yes, the word "Socialism" is there, but it was not intended to mean what Marx meant by Socialism, or even Lenin or Stalin, or the English Fabian Society or any other Socialists.

You and others are desperately trying to assert that the German word sozialismus means the exact same thing as Marxist socialism, or Leninist socialism or Christian socialism or any other socialism that fits the needs of your agenda at the moment.

It does not. You note yourself that you can't describe any "socialist reforms" that the Nazis implemented.

The Nazis were nationalists; that's what they claimed, and that's what they meant.



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 07:01 PM
link   
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Again with "my definition".

It isn't my definition, it is something that someone established before I was even born.



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 07:01 PM
link   
a reply to: greencmp

Okay, since you provide no commentary, you are asserting with that quote that Fascism was "neither right nor left wing?"

Or were you, as most scholars within the quote, asserting that Fascism is "right wing"?

Fine, but if so and either way, you've just proven that fascism is not left wing.

There you go. Easy peasy.


edit on 19Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:08:07 -050015p072015866 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 07:03 PM
link   
a reply to: Gryphon66

Propaganda is used to promote ideas. Yes they were promoting German national socialism, most definitely a nationalistic version of socialism, not your version of socialism.




Yes, the word "Socialism" is there, but it was not intended to mean what Marx meant by Socialism, or even Lenin or Stalin, or the English Fabian Society or any other Socialists.


Or what Hitler and Goebbles meant by socialism. Are they not allowed to have their own version, like these other men? On what grounds?



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 07:05 PM
link   
a reply to: daskakik




Again with "my definition".

It isn't my definition, it is something that someone established before I was even born.


Who. Marx? Engels? Stalin? Mao? Lenin? Trotsky? Who's definition of socialism?



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 07:06 PM
link   

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: greencmp

Okay, since you provide no commentary, you are asserting with that quote that Fascism was "neither right nor left wing?"

Fine, but if so, you've just proven that fascism is not left wing.

There you go. Easy peasy.



From your source:



It should be noted all fascist regimes have been statists socialists with totalitarian centralized power.



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 07:08 PM
link   
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

No socialist reforms means that it wouldn't fit any definition.



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 07:12 PM
link   
a reply to: daskakik




No socialist reforms means that it wouldn't fit any definition.


...except for the nazi definition of socialism.



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 07:15 PM
link   
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Right, which seems to have been a lie to garner support from the working class that they never delivered on.

A lie. What is so hard about accepting that?



posted on Aug, 24 2015 @ 07:16 PM
link   
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

HItler and Goebbels disagree with your definition of propaganda as shown in their quoted words.

Hitler and Goebbels did indeed define their socialism, and it was a reinforcement of German nationalism.

Now, feel free to drone on as you wish on the same silly song.




top topics



 
23
<< 29  30  31    33  34  35 >>

log in

join