Rebels in Ukraine's Donetsk plan referendum on joining Russia

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul

originally posted by: darkorange

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Germany and France have backed Ukraine on its position of the illegal elections that the break away provinces are trying to hold. They will be considered a breach of the Minsk agreements and Russia will be held responsible.

You know you are delusional. I can tell the way you mean your authority to the point like it Is you who calls ultimate shots on global chessboard. Do you feel yourself that way at times?


D0.

What does this actually mean??

Seriously - do you have a point??

yes, I do.

2nd.

PSA

Let's keep the focus on the Topic and Not Each Other, Please.

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul

originally posted by: darkorange

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Germany and France have backed Ukraine on its position of the illegal elections that the break away provinces are trying to hold. They will be considered a breach of the Minsk agreements and Russia will be held responsible.

You know you are delusional. I can tell the way you mean your authority to the point like it Is you who calls ultimate shots on global chessboard. Do you feel yourself that way at times?


D0.

What does this actually mean??

Seriously - do you have a point??

No he doesn't... He apparently is unaware of the comments made by Germany and France about the rebels intention to hold elections in October and September in violation of the Minsk agreement. He is also unaware of the warnings issued by the US, the EU and several other countries about any more land grabs by the rebels / Russia in Ukraine.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul

originally posted by: darkorange

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Germany and France have backed Ukraine on its position of the illegal elections that the break away provinces are trying to hold. They will be considered a breach of the Minsk agreements and Russia will be held responsible.

You know you are delusional. I can tell the way you mean your authority to the point like it Is you who calls ultimate shots on global chessboard. Do you feel yourself that way at times?


D0.

What does this actually mean??

Seriously - do you have a point??

No he doesn't... He apparently is unaware of the comments made by Germany and France about the rebels intention to hold elections in October and September in violation of the Minsk agreement. He is also unaware of the warnings issued by the US, the EU and several other countries about any more land grabs by the rebels / Russia in Ukraine.

no really. You sound like being captive who has to lie to interrogation.

a reply to: darkorange

Is English not your first language??

We all know what choices they have, Yes or Yes.

a reply to: darkorange

Do you have anything on topic or are you going to just go for the personal attacks? To cover all bases -

Есть ли у вас что-нибудь по этой теме или вы хотите просто для личного нападения?

What's your thoughts on what France and Germany have stated about the rebels illegally holding their own elections in violation of the Minsk agreement?

Whats your thoughts on the warnings that have been issued to Russia about further land grabs by Russian rebels?

originally posted by: cenpuppie
We all know what choices they have, Yes or Yes.

That is completely unfair - it will be "Yes" or "I don't mind"

a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul



Ukraine says EU ready to toughen stance against Russia

Kiev (AFP) - Ukraine said Tuesday that the leaders of Germany and France had agreed to back "firm" steps against Russia should pro-Moscow rebels hold disputed elections in the ex-Soviet state's separatist east.

A top aide to President Petro Poroshenko said German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande had agreed at trilateral talks in Berlin on Monday to a set of "red lines" Russia must not cross.

"European leaders agreed on a set 'red lines' whose violation by Russia would prompt a firm EU response," deputy administration chief Kostyantyn Yeliseyev told reporters.

"One of these lines is the fake elections that the (rebels) of Donetsk and Lugansk intend to hold on October 18 and November 1," he said in reference to the two separatist regions.

"Russia must pressure its loyalists to cancel these so-called elections. They will not be recognised and only pose a serious threat to the Minsk (peace) process if they go ahead," he told reporters.

click link for remainder of article.....

a reply to: Xcathdra

Looks like it's all kicking off again in Kiev.................. Maidan v.2? The Nazis are trying to battle the Police, one killed already with shotgun wounds. Is it any wonder the east wants the protection and sanity of Russian help when their old Ukranian capital is a war zone right now between a western installed junta government on one side and neo Nazis on the other?

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

a western installed junta government on one side and neo Nazis on the other?

Wait! Are you saying that the Kyiv government is not Neo-Nazi? Why the sudden change of tune?

Well, fighting, sanctions and threats have not worked.

Let's give democracy a try?

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

a western installed junta government on one side and neo Nazis on the other?

Wait! Are you saying that the Kyiv government is not Neo-Nazi? Why the sudden change of tune?

They all piss in the same pot when it comes to Kiev today. Just some are more Nazi than others. The Poroshenko government is more friendly than those Right Sektor nutters, but they all encompass nazi elements funded through western NGOs STRATFOR leading the way. Right Sector is proper nazi, while Poroshenko's government himself included lean towards another angle, Yatsenyuk, Porky, Groysman, etc would never fit in with Right Sektor would they?

Sky News now reporting it's kicking off right outside the parliament. Petrol bombs, blood all over the Police, 100 plus Police wounded, hand grenades being used, Police being shot. They'll be begging for the old law and order back soon. Poor Ukranians, a true tragedy perpetrated by outside powers STRATFOR etc

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
Sky News now reporting it's kicking off right outside the parliament. Petrol bombs, blood all over the Police, 100 plus Police wounded, hand grenades being used, Police being shot. They'll be begging for the old law and order back soon. Poor Ukranians, a true tragedy perpetrated by outside powers

STRATFOR etc

Just before all these started, Ukraine was a safe law abiding country. Now there are deaths everyday.

a reply to: asen_y2k

Exactly. For the average man on the street life under the previous regime was better. Ukraine today is a lawless country being torn apart by various outside interests and the economy is looking over the edge of a cliff.

I really want to know what is going on with British, French, USA, Saudi, Israeli foreign policy at this moment in time. Iraq, Libya, Syria and now Ukraine all once functioning states destroyed by our foreign policy and meddling. Turned into jhell holes today where for the average human being just staying alive is becoming difficult.

There was a time when I'd have died for my country. Like when the Argies invaded the Falklands, I'd have gone out there to defend our British people on those islands if asked by our government as it was (for us) the right thing to do. All this meddling in foreign affairs of nations where they are in areas where we have no interests or right to step on other world powers shoes, is insane. If asked to fight for my country today, i'd give two fingers and be a conscienscious objector. Our forein policy regarding the above mentioned countries has been wrong and bought about real suffering to innocent human being and a death toll in the millions.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
a reply to: asen_y2k

Exactly. For the average man on the street life under the previous regime was better. Ukraine today is a lawless country being torn apart by various outside interests and the economy is looking over the edge of a cliff.

Well there's a load of carp if ever I've seen one.

Before Russia's interference Ukraine was a Russian puppet state with a President and oligarches ripping the people off in the now traditional Russian model

I really want to know what is going on with British, French, USA, Saudi, Israeli foreign policy at this moment in time. Iraq, Libya, Syria and now Ukraine all once functioning states destroyed by our foreign policy and meddling. Turned into jhell holes today where for the average human being just staying alive is becoming difficult.

and so you rubbish understanding of international politics makes Russia doing the same thing right??

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
a reply to: asen_y2k

Exactly. For the average man on the street life under the previous regime was better. Ukraine today is a lawless country being torn apart by various outside interests and the economy is looking over the edge of a cliff.

Not sure where you've been over the last year or so, but the protests in Ukraine - by the "average man in the streets" was precisely because the "previous regime" was becoming increasingly autocratic and was NOT doing what "the average man in the streets" wanted. The Euromaiden protests were sparked because the ties with Europe were being reverted. Ukrainians were sick of the corruption and being treated like second class citizens in a pseudo Russian Empire.

Any interesting read...

Three and a half reasons why Russia might be planning to withdraw from Ukraine (or some of it, anyway)

On Aug. 9, 2015, a senior Russian general declared that if the Ukrainian military crosses Russia’s red line and attempts to recapture the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine, Russia would respond with overwhelming force. This statement reaffirms the Kremlin’s official line that Russia needs to hold onto territory it has virtually annexed in Donbas to ensure the viability of its puppet republics, Donetsk and Luhansk.

But is it true?

Here’s another theory. It could be that President Vladimir Putin regards the takeover of Donbas territories as temporary, and is evaluating this occupation with a strict cost-benefit analysis. Right now, he has concluded that small military victories in the Donbas generate more than enough political capital in Russia to offset the Russian public’s disdain for the hardships of sanctions-induced austerity.

[Hey, Putin, have you seen how much China is investing in Ukraine?]

Should that assessment change, Putin is very likely to tactically withdraw from Donbas on his own terms. Putin will not regard this withdrawal as a defeat, as Russia will retain a military force in Crimea that could be used to destabilize Ukraine if it tries to join NATO.

Three factors suggest that Putin’s commitment to retaining control over the territories is weaker than his regime’s rhetoric indicates:
1.Russia’s military presence in and occupation of Donbas territory is much less popular among Russian-speaking Ukrainians than Putin initially predicted in 2014.
2.The Ukrainian government has more power than it has used in the conflict thus far, and it could use this influence to force Putin to back down sooner than expected in Donbas.
3.There is compelling evidence that Putin’s long-term goal is to create a “frozen conflict” in Donbas, a scenario in which active fighting is suspended but ethnic tensions remain and can reignite at any time.

In addition, withdrawal from territories in Donbas would relieve Russia of the costs of occupation.

Let’s examine these factors in turn.

Click link for full article and a breakdown of each scenario being discussed. I would welcome some feedback from Russian supporters / what have you on whether they are reading Russia correctly or if they are off mark.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Any interesting read...

Three and a half reasons why Russia might be planning to withdraw from Ukraine (or some of it, anyway)

On Aug. 9, 2015, a senior Russian general declared that if the Ukrainian military crosses Russia’s red line and attempts to recapture the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine, Russia would respond with overwhelming force. This statement reaffirms the Kremlin’s official line that Russia needs to hold onto territory it has virtually annexed in Donbas to ensure the viability of its puppet republics, Donetsk and Luhansk.

But is it true?

Here’s another theory. It could be that President Vladimir Putin regards the takeover of Donbas territories as temporary, and is evaluating this occupation with a strict cost-benefit analysis. Right now, he has concluded that small military victories in the Donbas generate more than enough political capital in Russia to offset the Russian public’s disdain for the hardships of sanctions-induced austerity.

[Hey, Putin, have you seen how much China is investing in Ukraine?]

Should that assessment change, Putin is very likely to tactically withdraw from Donbas on his own terms. Putin will not regard this withdrawal as a defeat, as Russia will retain a military force in Crimea that could be used to destabilize Ukraine if it tries to join NATO.

Three factors suggest that Putin’s commitment to retaining control over the territories is weaker than his regime’s rhetoric indicates:
1.Russia’s military presence in and occupation of Donbas territory is much less popular among Russian-speaking Ukrainians than Putin initially predicted in 2014.
2.The Ukrainian government has more power than it has used in the conflict thus far, and it could use this influence to force Putin to back down sooner than expected in Donbas.
3.There is compelling evidence that Putin’s long-term goal is to create a “frozen conflict” in Donbas, a scenario in which active fighting is suspended but ethnic tensions remain and can reignite at any time.

In addition, withdrawal from territories in Donbas would relieve Russia of the costs of occupation.

Let’s examine these factors in turn.

Click link for full article and a breakdown of each scenario being discussed. I would welcome some feedback from Russian supporters / what have you on whether they are reading Russia correctly or if they are off mark.

You have to look at what Russia gains by their actions. Crimea, a place that thrives on tourism, is not thriving on tourism anymore. Eastern Ukraine has become a wasteland, and the cost for rebuilding the infrastructure is probably something Russia really doesn't want to tackle and Ukraine can't really afford. What a debacle. I feel sorry for the folks in the affected areas, because they are the ones suffering by this royal shaft.