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An explanation of those white lines in the sky behind planes.

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posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 11:47 AM
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originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: network dude

So, contrails are indeed chemtrails...same thing. Now I can agree with my friend when she rants on and on about chemtrails.


Not sure how you got that out of my post. Contrails are man made clouds. the chemicals in the exhaust are invisible, and there weather you see a trail or not.

By definition, this is a chemtrail:

A plane spraying corexit in the Gulf during the BP oil spill. It has a visible trail and it was a chemical.

If you really want to muddy the waters and make everything confusing, contrails are H2O and H2O is a combinations of elements, which could be classified as a chemical I suppose. But then when you pass gas, you are leaving chemtrails. So at that point, none of this matters at all.




posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 12:17 PM
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a reply to: network dude

How I arrived at that is that if a contrail contains sulfur oxide (a chemical/a toxic gas), then, I can deduce that it can also be deemed a chemical trail, of sorts.



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 12:20 PM
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a reply to: InTheLight

The contrail contains frozen water. The exhaust contains the other chemicals, and does so the entire time it's running.

ETA:


This is a contrail that started to spread out into a layer of cirrus. What you see it just ice crystals. All the pollution from previous flights is up there all around, but you can't see it.
edit on 21-8-2015 by network dude because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 12:26 PM
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originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: network dude

So, contrails are indeed chemtrails...same thing. Now I can agree with my friend when she rants on and on about chemtrails.

Define each of the two uses of the term "chemtrails". Note any differences. Are "chemtrails'' even ''chemtrails''?



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 12:36 PM
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a reply to: network dude

I am supposing the sulfur oxide (the chemical in the exhaust) is part of the frozen water vapour, so is a component of the contrail, containing a chemical, hence chemtrail.



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 12:45 PM
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originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: network dude

I am supposing the sulfur oxide (the chemical in the exhaust) is part of the frozen water vapour, so is a component of the contrail, containing a chemical, hence chemtrail.


I don't think so. If you look into what a contrail is, you find that the water that bonds to particles and freezes, then clump together, find some suit from the exhaust, and some aerosols from the air that were already there. (which is how clouds form) The amount of particulates that could be tiny particles of carbon, or dirt, are so small, and such a small percentage of the trail, it's almost non existent.

I sense that you really just want to call them chemtrails. If that's the case, go nuts. it won't change the general consensus on the subject, only make conversations more tedious.



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 12:48 PM
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originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: network dude

I am supposing the sulfur oxide (the chemical in the exhaust) is part of the frozen water vapour, so is a component of the contrail, containing a chemical, hence chemtrail.


Only if you think a fish being in water means a fish is a component of water.

All three of these aircraft are emitting pollutants in their exhaust from combusting jet fuel. Only one is also leaving a trail of water ice. Note the 'also'.




edit on 21-8-2015 by waynos because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 12:55 PM
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a reply to: network dude

I am not trying to make this discussion tedious, rather I am trying to determine what chemicals or toxic particulates are contained in the water vapour, if any. I have noticed some studies that attempt to prove many toxic elements can indeed be a part of the atmospheric mix. So, can you show me scientific chemistry studies of contrails that refute my theory?



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 01:04 PM
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a reply to: InTheLight


Abstract

Microphysical properties of jet exhaust aerosol and contrails were studied in the near field of the emitting aircraft for different fuel sulfur contents. Measurements were performed behind two different aircraft (ATTAS test aircraft of type VFW 614 and Airbus A310-300) using fuels with sulfur contents of 6 ppm and 2700 ppm, respectively. At closest approach (plume age < 1 s), the total number concentrations exceeded the measuring range of the condensation particle counter, i.e., N>105 cm−3. The concentration of the dry accumulation mode aerosol, i.e., predominantly soot particles, was not affected by the fuel sulfur content. At a plume age of 10 s, an increase in total number concentration (Dp>0.01 µm) by a factor of 3.5 in the high sulfur case compared to the low sulfur case was observed. The ultrafine condensation nuclei fraction (0.007 µm



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 01:08 PM
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a reply to: network dude

Please provide the link to the study, so that I can read it in its entirety.



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 01:08 PM
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onlinelibrary.wiley.com...

Here is the link to that post.

Apparently ATS is sucking wind today and having trouble posting stuff.



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 01:59 PM
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originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: network dude

I am not trying to make this discussion tedious, rather I am trying to determine what chemicals or toxic particulates are contained in the water vapour, if any. I have noticed some studies that attempt to prove many toxic elements can indeed be a part of the atmospheric mix. So, can you show me scientific chemistry studies of contrails that refute my theory?



All the chemicals one can find in jet exhaust and contrails are known. The chemtrail conspiracy theory proposes that there are chemicals in addition to those known chemicals. And those additional chemicals are supposedly the reason why a contrail persist, in the mind of a chemtrail believer. Don't ask how that works, for you will never get an answer from the chemtrail crowd (I've tried many times).

So to state that a contrail is a chemtrail because it contains chemicals is misguided. After all, water is a chemical too.



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 02:16 PM
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a reply to: network dude

Thank you and I must say that is an older study which prompted me to look for some up-to-date research. It would appear that the study below (2007) is campaigning for independent research and high or newer tech measuring into the microphysics of contrails.

However, if this thread is implying there is a government conspiracy to spread chemicals via planes then I would have to disagree at this time.




Field campaigns. Reliable models of contrail crystal formation and subsequent growth demand field campaigns that employ new instruments and technologies to measure the detailed microphysical and chemical structure of aircraft exhaust plumes and contrails during their initial development and subsequent evolution into mature systems that disperse and age. With- out such improved measurements, it will be impossible to realistically model the development of contrail cirrus. “Closure” experiments are needed to evaluate the sensitivity of cirrus cloud formation and evolution resulting from soot particles emitted by aircraft


www.faa.gov...



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 04:47 PM
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originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: jbowenh

originally posted by: network dude
This debate seems to be a difficult one to have. One side is based on science fact, the other, seems to either disregard the facts, or flat out doesn't believe them. In an effort to find out which of the two that is, I'd like to ask that anyone who disagrees with this science, offer an alternative explanation to what makes contrails persist. Keep in mind that all the science offered here is what has been taught to everyone in the field for decades.
Here is a start:
www.wrh.noaa.gov...

What is a contrail and how does it form?


To answer this question, lets first identify what a contrail is. A contrail is the condensation trail that is left behind by a passing jet plane. Contrails form when hot humid air from jet exhaust mixes with environmental air of low vapor pressure and low temperature. Vapor pressure is just a fancy term for the amount of pressure that is exerted by water vapor itself (as opposed to atmospheric, or barometric, pressure which is due to the weight of the entire atmosphere above you). The mixing occurs directly behind the plane due to the turbulence generated by the engine. If condensation (conversion from a gas to a liquid) occurs, then a contrail becomes visible. Since air temperatures at these high atmospheric levels are very cold (generally colder than -40 F), only a small amount of liquid is necessary for condensation to occur. Water is a normal byproduct of combustion in engines.


Here is a page with some very specific information:
cimss.ssec.wisc.edu...

So again, if you believe in the chemtrail theory, that's fine. As long as you understand it's just a theory. But if the above cannot be dis proven, then the age old "just look up" "I can see them with my own eyes" is proof of nothing but reaffirming the fact that contrails exist.
Contrails:

(BTW-that thing sticking up is a driver, this pic was taken on the #1 hole a golf course.)
i believe you have misunderstood the entire debate based on the basic information you have presented. The arguement is not based on the factual existence of contrails. It is the difference between seeing a jet fly over head at decent altitude making a trail and having a crop duster fly over you all day long spraying large amounts of _______ at illegally low altitudes. I argue with you because my brother comes at me with your very same argument. Contrails are not chemtrails.


I've been in this debate for about 8 years now. The chemtrail side claims that any trail lasting for more than "X" number of minutes is a chemtrail, because contrails can't persist. THAT is the conspiracy theory that I am trying to explain against. The pointing to a contrail in a picture and claiming that it's a chemtrail.

If you are discussing low altitude spraying, then you aren't in the chemtrail debate, you are being sprayed with something. Get a decent camera and find out what is happening.

And please, by all means, help explain this to others. Being afraid of clouds is sad, and people shouldn't be sad for such a silly reason.

Well said. I cant argue with that. People are very quick to call something a chemtrail when it is clearly a normal contrail. That does not negate the genuine chemtrails that do exist. Its not a predictable experience and i dont film my life. And this isnt directed at you but when people are rude in their responses it shows an emotional connection to the issue which further illustrates the needs of the ego. Its stops being about truth.



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 05:21 PM
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originally posted by: jbowenh

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: jbowenh

originally posted by: network dude
This debate seems to be a difficult one to have. One side is based on science fact, the other, seems to either disregard the facts, or flat out doesn't believe them. In an effort to find out which of the two that is, I'd like to ask that anyone who disagrees with this science, offer an alternative explanation to what makes contrails persist. Keep in mind that all the science offered here is what has been taught to everyone in the field for decades.
Here is a start:
www.wrh.noaa.gov...

What is a contrail and how does it form?


To answer this question, lets first identify what a contrail is. A contrail is the condensation trail that is left behind by a passing jet plane. Contrails form when hot humid air from jet exhaust mixes with environmental air of low vapor pressure and low temperature. Vapor pressure is just a fancy term for the amount of pressure that is exerted by water vapor itself (as opposed to atmospheric, or barometric, pressure which is due to the weight of the entire atmosphere above you). The mixing occurs directly behind the plane due to the turbulence generated by the engine. If condensation (conversion from a gas to a liquid) occurs, then a contrail becomes visible. Since air temperatures at these high atmospheric levels are very cold (generally colder than -40 F), only a small amount of liquid is necessary for condensation to occur. Water is a normal byproduct of combustion in engines.


Here is a page with some very specific information:
cimss.ssec.wisc.edu...

So again, if you believe in the chemtrail theory, that's fine. As long as you understand it's just a theory. But if the above cannot be dis proven, then the age old "just look up" "I can see them with my own eyes" is proof of nothing but reaffirming the fact that contrails exist.
Contrails:

(BTW-that thing sticking up is a driver, this pic was taken on the #1 hole a golf course.)
i believe you have misunderstood the entire debate based on the basic information you have presented. The arguement is not based on the factual existence of contrails. It is the difference between seeing a jet fly over head at decent altitude making a trail and having a crop duster fly over you all day long spraying large amounts of _______ at illegally low altitudes. I argue with you because my brother comes at me with your very same argument. Contrails are not chemtrails.


I've been in this debate for about 8 years now. The chemtrail side claims that any trail lasting for more than "X" number of minutes is a chemtrail, because contrails can't persist. THAT is the conspiracy theory that I am trying to explain against. The pointing to a contrail in a picture and claiming that it's a chemtrail.

If you are discussing low altitude spraying, then you aren't in the chemtrail debate, you are being sprayed with something. Get a decent camera and find out what is happening.

And please, by all means, help explain this to others. Being afraid of clouds is sad, and people shouldn't be sad for such a silly reason.

Well said. I cant argue with that. People are very quick to call something a chemtrail when it is clearly a normal contrail. That does not negate the genuine chemtrails that do exist. Its not a predictable experience and i dont film my life. And this isnt directed at you but when people are rude in their responses it shows an emotional connection to the issue which further illustrates the needs of the ego. Its stops being about truth.


Thanks for the post. I agree that rudeness is a deterrent to a good conversation. While it's easy to be nice, at times, when provoked, it's easy to slip into asshat mode.

Could you explain how you might recognize a genuine chemtrail?



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 05:24 PM
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edit on 21-8-2015 by DenyObfuscation because: doesn't matter. online staus is sooooo reliable.



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 05:31 PM
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originally posted by: payt69

originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: network dude

I am not trying to make this discussion tedious, rather I am trying to determine what chemicals or toxic particulates are contained in the water vapour, if any. I have noticed some studies that attempt to prove many toxic elements can indeed be a part of the atmospheric mix. So, can you show me scientific chemistry studies of contrails that refute my theory?



All the chemicals one can find in jet exhaust and contrails are known. The chemtrail conspiracy theory proposes that there are chemicals in addition to those known chemicals. And those additional chemicals are supposedly the reason why a contrail persist, in the mind of a chemtrail believer. Don't ask how that works, for you will never get an answer from the chemtrail crowd (I've tried many times).

So to state that a contrail is a chemtrail because it contains chemicals is misguided. After all, water is a chemical too.


I have not yet ventured into the chemtrail discussion scene so I am, as they say, unpolluted at this stage. I question the measuring methods, what little there are. It is so easy to dismiss advanced chemistry and toxicology within a contrail because it seems the 'right' science has not yet caught up in this respect. So, I am obliged to theorize.
edit on 21-8-2015 by InTheLight because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 05:42 PM
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a reply to: InTheLight

One of the things we as debunkers have been asking for is that chemtrail believers band together and get a mid air test of a trail they believe must be a chemtrail, then have it tested. It's a guaranteed way to find out exactly what's in there. If it was to show what we have been told, like Aluminum, Barium, Strontium, Blood, or whatever, then the world would have to take notice, because verifiable proof would be had.

I say they should do it, only because we believe it's just a contrail, so to prove that is kind of irrelevant. We aren't the one's making the claim.

But if you look into what is claimed about the chemtrail theory, it isn't anything solid, it's very dynamic. The reason for them varies form population control, to combating global warming, to hiding planet X, to making a backdrop for holographic images. (my personal favorite) Who is doing it varies as well. Government, airlines, NATO, They seem to be in almost every country, all over the Earth.

And as was said before, what's in them is also widely up for debate.

You will see pictures of chemtrail emanating from the engines, and some from the wingtips. Some say it's in the jet fuel, and coming out of the engines, and some say it's spray nozels in the wings.

If you find a solidified theory, please let us know.
edit on 21-8-2015 by network dude because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 05:47 PM
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a reply to: network dude

Arg, why is this up to me...arg.



posted on Aug, 21 2015 @ 05:53 PM
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a reply to: InTheLight

What do you mean? I was just offering you some background. There will not be a test later.




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