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Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption Church: Televangelists

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posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 04:03 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: beezzer
Faith is not a tangeable that you can put into a bucket and take to market.

If people are selling, it's only because people are buying.

Freedom.


Sure it is, you even argued as much in a prior post that people are essentially purchasing what brings them peace of mind, and that they should have the economic freedom to do so. We have an FDA that outlaws that precise practice with medications, why does church get a pass here when the experience of both is entirely psychological?


That's what faith is.

You going to outlaw prayer?




posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 04:30 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan

Sending money to an organization does not even remotely compare to the dangers of chemical/substance misuse.




posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 04:34 PM
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originally posted by: beezzer
That's what faith is.

You going to outlaw prayer?


Outlaw prayer? No. I do however see it as a case of false advertising to claim giving them money will result in a divine cure for a disease and then not following through on it. Prayer in the majority of churches involves praying for spiritual salvation and a peaceful afterlife, or non specific works here in the mortal realm like peace on Earth or justice for all.

If they're going to claim that donating money will cure cancer just like chemotherapy will I think they should have to post scientific studies showing their potential success rates just as medicine must. If they can't do that I don't think they should be allowed to make that claim.
edit on 19-8-2015 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 04:41 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: beezzer
That's what faith is.

You going to outlaw prayer?


Outlaw prayer? No. I do however see it as a case of false advertising to claim giving them money will result in a divine cure for a disease and then not following through on it. Prayer in the majority of churches involves praying for spiritual salvation and a peaceful afterlife, or non specific works here in the mortal realm like peace on Earth or justice for all.

If they're going to claim that donating money will cure cancer just like chemotherapy will I think they should have to post scientific studies showing their potential success rates just as medicine must. If they can't do that I don't think they should be allowed to make that claim.


I'm going to pray for you.

I will pray away your . . . um. . . bald spot!

There.

I just prayed away your bald spot.

Um, what do you mean, it's still there?

Well obviously you didn't have enough faith in my prayer. Therefore, the problem is on you, not me. I delivered.

You just couldn't receive.



(not saying it's morally right or even ethical, but it is legal, and that's how the game is played)



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 05:14 PM
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originally posted by: beezzer
I'm going to pray for you.

I will pray away your . . . um. . . bald spot!

There.

I just prayed away your bald spot.


I do not have a bald spot, in fact all of the men in my family have had lush full heads of hair well into their 80's and 90's. I claim that God being omnipotent, knew of your prayer ahead of time, was proactive about fulfilling it, and blessed me through good genetics with not having a bald spot. We can chalk this one up as a win. How much did you have to seed to Tilton to make that prayer come true? Why do the cancer patients that have given him millions have under 1% survival rates?



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 05:18 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: beezzer
I'm going to pray for you.

I will pray away your . . . um. . . bald spot!

There.

I just prayed away your bald spot.


I do not have a bald spot, in fact all of the men in my family have had lush full heads of hair well into their 80's and 90's. I claim that God being omnipotent, knew of your prayer ahead of time, was proactive about fulfilling it, and blessed me through good genetics with not having a bald spot. We can chalk this one up as a win. How much did you have to seed to Tilton to make that prayer come true? Why do the cancer patients that have given him millions have under 1% survival rates?


I get so frustrated with patients who refuse care and go to prayer.

I'm a person of faith. But I figure that God made the Oncologist, so he's there for me to use.

It makes me angry to see lives lost. But they go into it willingly.

Perhaps their faith is greater than mine and they're going someplace far better.



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 05:26 PM
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originally posted by: beezzer
It makes me angry to see lives lost. But they go into it willingly.

Perhaps their faith is greater than mine and they're going someplace far better.


Or perhaps they're desperate and being tricked by a charlatan while they're at their most vulnerable. Laws are meant to protect people. What these false prophets are doing may not be illegal but it should be. It goes well beyond a freedom of religion issue. If they were peddling nothing more than spiritual salvation I would agree with you, but they're going beyond that to the realm of the physical. If something physical is being claimed then they should need to provide proof, if they can't do that they shouldn't be allowed to make the claim.

Edit: Let me give you two examples. As much as I disagree with it this should be legal:
"Sign over your life savings and God will look favorably upon you in the afterlife".

This on the other hand is legal, but should not be (unless they can prove it works):
"If you give us enough of your money God will act through the church and cure your cancer".
edit on 19-8-2015 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 11:55 PM
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"That's what faith is.

You going to outlaw prayer?"


"So since you are smarter than me, you get to decide what I get to spend my money on?

Nope.

I'll take Freedom for 500, Alex."


Seriously Beezzer, I don't see you making this many straw man arguments in other threads, and I honestly agree with a lot of your points in other threads. But who said anything about outlawing prayer? How did the other poster imply they were smarter than you?

Earlier in the thread you implied that the thread itself, or perhaps Oliver's video, is an attack on religion. If you watch the video, the first thing he says is that the vast majority of churches are good and do great work in their communities. The video, and this thread, is calling out the televangelists that knowingly, intentionally exploit a cancer patient's faith for financial gain, knowing that that person could very well die or be in unmanageable debt as a result. I said before that nobody was asking for this practice to be outlawed, but the more I think about it, why shouldn't this be against the law just as mail scams are? Is this not a scam of the cruelest kind?

As a Christian, how can you be so seemingly indifferent about this? Shouldn't you be railing harder than anyone against these people who are misrepresenting and weaponizing your religion for financial gain?
edit on 20-8-2015 by mulder85 because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-8-2015 by mulder85 because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-8-2015 by mulder85 because: quote fail



posted on Aug, 20 2015 @ 10:12 AM
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This seems relevant....

Did this pastor get what he deserved, or was he targeted because of his faith?

www.rawstory.com...



posted on Aug, 20 2015 @ 10:15 AM
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a reply to: olaru12

Perfect!!


A Missouri pastor at a church called “Passion for Truth Ministries” will serve prison time for lying to and defrauding elderly investors, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports.

Jim Staley, 40, was sentenced Wednesday to 7 years in prison and ordered to repay elderly investors $3.3 million. He pleaded guilty to four counts of wire fraud and profited $570,000 in the scam of elderly people who trusted him because of his Christian faith and family values.


Thanks for linking it!



posted on Aug, 20 2015 @ 11:38 AM
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a reply to: mulder85

As a Christian, I'm bound by the same laws as everyone else.

And just as second, so many seem to imply that "as a Christian", I'm to act a certain way, behave a certain way, thing a certain way.

I also believe in the Constitution in how it guarantees freedom for everyone.

Christianity is my faith.

I don't wear it on my sleeve and how I conduct myself is between me and God.

How can I be "indifferent"?

because I can see farther than some "feel-good" legislation.

I can see where banning religion becomes a real possibility.

I see daily, the demonization of religion on these threads and the sheer thrill that it would give some to see religion shut down.

SO I'll take the bad with the good.



posted on Aug, 20 2015 @ 11:52 AM
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a reply to: beezzer

...it's funny because televangelists make money by vilifying half of America in front of a live audience. You're just mad because organized religion keeps getting poo on itself. Well, stop flinging it then!



posted on Aug, 20 2015 @ 11:56 AM
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originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: beezzer
Faith is not a tangeable that you can put into a bucket and take to market.

If people are selling, it's only because people are buying.

Freedom.


Sure it is, you even argued as much in a prior post that people are essentially purchasing what brings them peace of mind, and that they should have the economic freedom to do so. We have an FDA that outlaws that precise practice with medications, why does church get a pass here when the experience of both is entirely psychological?


That's what faith is.

You going to outlaw prayer?



If you are charging people for the privilege of praying for them, or you support people who do, then I hope Thor smites thee.



posted on Aug, 20 2015 @ 12:24 PM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: beezzer
Faith is not a tangeable that you can put into a bucket and take to market.

If people are selling, it's only because people are buying.

Freedom.


Sure it is, you even argued as much in a prior post that people are essentially purchasing what brings them peace of mind, and that they should have the economic freedom to do so. We have an FDA that outlaws that precise practice with medications, why does church get a pass here when the experience of both is entirely psychological?


That's what faith is.

You going to outlaw prayer?



If you are charging people for the privilege of praying for them, or you support people who do, then I hope Thor smites thee.


Freedom of religion means even jerks can preach.



posted on Aug, 20 2015 @ 12:26 PM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: beezzer

...it's funny because televangelists make money by vilifying half of America in front of a live audience. You're just mad because organized religion keeps getting poo on itself. Well, stop flinging it then!


Televangelists found a niche and capitalised on it.

Is it disgusting?

Sure.

Do they fling poo? Do I fling poo?

Of course.

No-one is poo-fling-free.

But freedom isn't just for nice, honest, idealistic people.

Even jerks get to enjoy freedom.



posted on Aug, 20 2015 @ 01:03 PM
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originally posted by: beezzer
Freedom of religion means even jerks can preach.


Freedom of religion means people can preach, but what these people are doing isn't preaching. They're making a sales pitch and offering a product that has a tangible return.

Saying giving them money will cure your cancer is not ok.
Saying God will favor whoever gives them money is ok.

If you're offering something tangible there needs to be proof of it. This is like the Christian Scientists where they've gone to jail by letting their child die of a disease because they believed in prayer over medicine. Freedom of religion is not absolute. When you get right down to it, any behavior can be justified by a religious faith. That doesn't mean we should live in a society where anything goes. To go right to an extreme example, look at the Jihadists. They want to kill the infidels and their religion demands they do so. Preventing them from killing people is an obstruction of their freedom of religion. Do you agree that we should prevent them from killing the unbelievers?
edit on 20-8-2015 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 20 2015 @ 01:13 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: beezzer
Freedom of religion means even jerks can preach.


Freedom of religion means people can preach, but what these people are doing isn't preaching. They're making a sales pitch and offering a product that has a tangible return.

Saying giving them money will cure your cancer is not ok.
?


Motivational speakers and people that sell get rich quick books do the same thing.
But they pay tax if you buy their books.
If you donate to their pyramid scheme, you don't get a tax credit.

The issue is less : "Should televangelism be legal?"
And more: "Should these crooks be tax exempt?"



posted on Aug, 20 2015 @ 01:16 PM
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a reply to: HighFive

Should evangelism become illegal?

(loaded question, with so many that hate religion, but I had to ask)



posted on Aug, 20 2015 @ 01:19 PM
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originally posted by: HighFive
Motivational speakers and people that sell get rich quick books do the same thing.
But they pay tax if you buy their books.
If you donate to their pyramid scheme, you don't get a tax credit.

The issue is less : "Should televangelism be legal?"
And more: "Should these crooks be tax exempt?"


The book or speech is the physical product, there is no guarantee the information within will work for any given individual. What they are selling is their opinion that you are paying to hear, politicians do the same thing with their books.

What televangelists do goes beyond that. Being tax exempt is one thing but taxing them doesn't fix the problem, making it illegal does.



posted on Aug, 20 2015 @ 01:20 PM
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originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: HighFive

Should evangelism become illegal?

(loaded question, with so many that hate religion, but I had to ask)


It all depends on what you're preaching. The content of the message is what's important, not the method of delivery.




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