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Time to allow Politics from the Pulpit openly as the Left does it anyway

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posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 03:37 PM
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originally posted by: woodwardjnr
a reply to: ketsuko
Shouldn't religion stay out of politics all together. It should be a private thing, because every individual believes something different, you must realise not everyone believes the same thing, there are lots of religions and lots of people who don't follow religion at all. To expect everyone to believe the same in this day and age is beyond naive?


And what would constitute religion being in politics? Everyone has a different idea of where that line should be drawn. For some, even having a political figure admit to being religious is too much.

But then, wouldn't that be disenfranchising the religious who should have every right to expect representation on their behalf?

And it's a bit silly to expect that someone who is of a religious belief to somehow completely divorce their personal morals and ethics when making decisions. "Gee, I would normally be against rape, but since I came to that conclusion through my religious belief system, I will have to divorce my beliefs and vote FOR rape ..."




posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 03:46 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

So you're for government intervention in the religious message?

And somehow arguing for the equality of churches before the law is trying to undermine them?!!

The victim card is strong with this one.



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 03:52 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ketsuko

So you're for government intervention in the religious message?



From the same avian who complains constantly about having words put in his own mouth.



And somehow arguing for the equality of churches before the law is trying to undermine them?!!


Oh, but see, you aren't arguing for true equality before the law. You quite like the law as it applies to all those other orgs mentioned which is why you keep trying to ignore that they've been brought up. You don't want churches to be equal. If you did, you'd want to whole 501(c)3 section removed, not just churches taxed, but I don't see you making that argument at all. I just see you getting your feathers in a wad whenever someone suggests that other orgs ought to be subject to the same scrutiny and lose their special status too.

The concern trolling is strong with this one. See? I can do it too.



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 03:52 PM
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a reply to: infolurker

Churches should be free to say whatever they want.


Punishing them by altering their tax status is controlling speech.



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 03:54 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko do you think if you didn't have religion, you would condone rape? Of course not. Forcing someone to do something against their will is not a religious issue. As humans we know the difference between right or wrong, religion has nothing to do with it. Whether to bomb Iran or not is not a religious issue? It's about common sense which we all share and should be decided by facts not religious doctrine

Anyway. I think I'm going off topic, so I'll let you all fight it out I need my beauty sleep. Good night.
edit on 16-8-2015 by woodwardjnr because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 04:00 PM
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a reply to: woodwardjnr

No, I didn't say that. Reread what I said.

I am pointing out the flawed thinking some people have when they expect a religious person to completely divorce their religion from their decisions. Your faith is part of your foundation and informs your morality among other things.



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 04:30 PM
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originally posted by: infolurker
Yes,

Time for the BS to stop. Allow churches to openly preach what they want.

Since it is OK to actually promote "The Iran Deal" from the Pulpit.... why not?

thehill.com...

Sharpton calls for black churches to lobby on Iran deal



“I am calling on ministers in black churches nationwide to go to their pulpits Sunday and have their parishioners call their senators and congressmen to vote yes on the Iran nuclear plan,” he said Friday.



Know what is funny.. If one of these Southern Mega-Churches was doing exactly the opposite the Left would be calling to punish them by yanking their 501.
listen...normally it is the secular left that tries to say politics from the pulpit is off limits. because typically it had been the right ideology that was supported by preachers. thus the left attacked the idea. tried to say that it was a matter of separation of church and state and used the fact that churches were tax exempt as a rationale.

but as usual they [s]LIE[/s] are completely misguided. the fact is that the revolution was started and coordinated in the churches of the colonies. The founders were not only OK with it; that is the reason they are tax exempt in the first place. the underground railroad was also formed and coordinated there.

It is the way they meant it to be; not this latter idea that they should not(heaven forefend) say that their country should be ran by their moral principles formed by religious values so long as they prevail in numbers at the poll booth.
edit on 16-8-2015 by stormbringer1701 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 04:47 PM
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luke 9:26



King James Bible
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.


and mark 8:38


Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 04:53 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Notice one big difference: the question mark at the end. I don't complain constantly, it's part of your "argumentation" style.

To get a sense of what I'm referring to, go to any of your posts and count the times you say something like "so what you're saying is ..."

You're against the arguments being made here, apparently. We're arguing for greater freedom for churches.

You're arguing for .... government endorsement of churches? Hard to tell, your argument is really muddled.

You want to talk about revising the tax laws, have at it! How am I stopping you from that?

I do want churches to be equal. I want them to be treated like we all are, and to have the same rights.

I don't agree with what the churches promote, but the government shouldn't control what they can say.

I don't agree with the churches being subjected to an unfair tax law. I'm in favor of removing that.

Go ahead and tell us what you think about the rest of the tax code ... I'm going to stay on topic.

What is "concern trolling"? Are you just making up phrases now?

LOL ...
edit on 17Sun, 16 Aug 2015 17:08:38 -050015p052015866 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 05:00 PM
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a reply to: beezzer

We're just getting rid of a rule that was imposed in the 50s that, according to some here, was intended to control speech.

You don't want religious speech to be controlled, or you do? It's the same (in my opinion, unfair if not unconstitutional) law.



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 05:05 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

I don't want speech controlled.

Period.

(is that simple enough?)

I think tax exempt status is an entirely different topic. Should I get tax breaks for charitable donations?



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 05:08 PM
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Churches have always been at the forefront of societal/political change, or the clergy have, anyway.

It doesn't take much of a search to find examples of it, either.

Martin Luther.

Martin Luther King.

...and a host of others who remain anonymous and unknown save by those they helped.

Separation of church and state is a pipedream. It'll never, and has never, been the case. Nor frankly, should it be. Churches, and the men and women behind the pulpit, if they're any good at their job, know what their parishioners are thinking down to the last i and t.

It's a foolish man/woman who discounts the very real power of the pulpit, or messes with it.



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 05:10 PM
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a reply to: beezzer

I don't disagree with you per se, but tax status and preaching politics is the subject of the thread.

I'm still not talking about revisions to the overall tax code; should you get tax breaks? /shrug
edit on 17Sun, 16 Aug 2015 17:12:50 -050015p052015866 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 05:12 PM
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a reply to: stormbringer1701

Sorry, I got lost in your diatribe against the political Left ... are you in favor of the government controlling the pulpit, or not?



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 05:14 PM
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a reply to: seagull

Are you in favor of ignoring the First Amendment then?

Are you more in favor of "establishing a religion" or "prohibiting the free exercise thereof"?


edit on 17Sun, 16 Aug 2015 17:28:37 -050015p052015866 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 05:29 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: beezzer

I don't disagree with you per se, but tax status and preaching politics is the subject of the thread.

I'm still not talking about revisions to the overall tax code; should you get tax breaks? /shrug


But charitable actions are a lot of what a church does.

If I get tax beaks by giving to a church or charity, should that money be taxed by the government once a charity or church receives it?



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 05:30 PM
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originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: woodwardjnr
No matter which side your on, why would you want politics delivered from the pulpit? Do you need someone to tell you what to think?


Let's see.

The Right is trying to have a dictator theocracy.

The Left wants to take care of the poor and have equality.


Should we all be the same height and weight? All the same IQ? All the same personality?

The left wants the equivalent of a theology, the system as church and its politicians as holy men.

Left and right both want something to control everyone and then get piece of the power.
edit on 16-8-2015 by Semicollegiate because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 05:31 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

Of course not...and you know I'm doing nothing of the sort.

I'm saying what is. Pulpits in the church have always been places where social change starts. To say anything else is disingenuous. If the change doesn't start there, it's where it's reinforced, for good or for ill.

Churches are a backbone of American society, and that's not likely to change anytime soon.



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 05:32 PM
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originally posted by: infolurker
Yes,

Time for the BS to stop. Allow churches to openly preach what they want.

Since it is OK to actually promote "The Iran Deal" from the Pulpit.... why not?

thehill.com...

Sharpton calls for black churches to lobby on Iran deal



“I am calling on ministers in black churches nationwide to go to their pulpits Sunday and have their parishioners call their senators and congressmen to vote yes on the Iran nuclear plan,” he said Friday.



Know what is funny.. If one of these Southern Mega-Churches was doing exactly the opposite the Left would be calling to punish them by yanking their 501.


You are railing against something that is a non issue. The prohibition relating to churches and political activity is limited to a prohibition against becoming involved in elections. Therefore, a church can say, without risk, "Call your representative and tell him you are for/against the Iran deal" What they can not do, under IRC 501(c)(3), is "Vote for X because he/she is for/against the Iran deal." A church can not advocate for or against a candidate or contribute to a candidate, or post electioneering material on church property. They may organize and coordinate nonpartisan get-out-the-vote and voter registration drives; sponsor nonpartisan candidate debates or forums, so long as all legally qualified candidates are invited to appear and wide spectrum of issues are covered.
So your example is a non-issue.
IMO, churches should be fully taxed, particularly with respect to property taxes. They use the same fire protection and police protection. They use the same streets and sewers and other services. But they get a free ride because they advocate the beliefs of a bunch of pre-literate Bronze Age goatherders.



posted on Aug, 16 2015 @ 05:37 PM
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a reply to: seagull

That may well be so, although, statistical trends suggest that overall, the influence of the traditional church is waning.

How do I know what you think if I don't ask? Am I a mind reader? Unlike some, I prefer to let folks speak for themselves.

I'm sorry, the State can't be a "little" involved in church. The statement in the Constitution is clear.

That said, once again, I AM ARGUING FOR CHURCHES TO BE FREE TO SAY WHAT THEY WISH.




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