"But namecalling can never make a statement right."

Perhaps you should be addressing youself to:

GLeamer:
"There is no more evil group in the world"
"The history of this group is rife with malfeasance,murder and treachery."

or

djackson:
"but in reality they are worshipping Baphomet"
"All roads point back to worshipping satan."

Why are you, by your silence and acquiescence, defending them?

My brother-in-law is a Mason. The same conversation I had with Masonic Light, I will have with my brother-in-law. People, I am not here to judge or argue. I am just stating my opinion and my findings of my personal research. I am not here to to create mischeif or havoc, I am just here to state what God has allowed me to find. There is a reason why, before I really knew what the Freemasonry was about, I never became one. Every time I would try, something would come out, I call it Divine Intervention. Just like any organization that is trying to conceal what it's true meaning is about, their members will refute and deny until the day they die, hell look at the government. The Masonry is rooted in paganistic ideals and one of it's truest and most heralded members Albert Pike was a free worshipper of satan. The symbols that are associated with the freemasonry are paganistic. The writing is on the wall people, but God said that His truth will not be revealed to everyone now, but one day it will be. It's just not for some people to understand now.

Originally posted by djackson
My brother-in-law is a Mason. The same conversation I had with Masonic Light, I will have with my brother-in-law. People, I am not here to judge or argue. I am just stating my opinion and my findings of my personal research. I am not here to to create mischeif or havoc, I am just here to state what God has allowed me to find. There is a reason why, before I really knew what the Freemasonry was about, I never became one. Every time I would try, something would come out, I call it Divine Intervention. Just like any organization that is trying to conceal what it's true meaning is about, their members will refute and deny until the day they die, hell look at the government. The Masonry is rooted in paganistic ideals and one of it's truest and most heralded members Albert Pike was a free worshipper of satan. The symbols that are associated with the freemasonry are paganistic. The writing is on the wall people, but God said that His truth will not be revealed to everyone now, but one day it will be. It's just not for some people to understand now.

djackson

Pike was NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT a "free worshipper of satan" Where ever did you get that? God certainly didn't tell you that. The "taxil hoax" has been discussed and discussed here (do a Google search for it...) Pike was a trinitarian Christian. An Episcopalian, in fact.

Also, Pike is only known in the "Southern Jurisdiction" of the Scottish Rite of the United States. Our British, Canadian, Japanese, etc...brethren will verify this. Some of them have read his works because they choose to, but he's not "required" reading in Masonry.

I respect the fact that you don't feel like Freemasonry is for you. It isn't for everyone and we don't want people who think it's sinister anyway. But PLEASE don't perpetuate lies about the organization. It's beyond me why (and this has been said over and over, but here goes) why the writings of anti-Masons about the Fraternity MUST be true and the writings of dues-paying, initiated, active, knowledgable MASONS must be false.

I guess it's human nature to want to believe the bad and not the good.

...not a very Christian attitude, though.

Hey, I don't know who you are and really that does not matter. The only thing that matters is what God says. I am glad that you think what I think is retarded, but it is only God's word. I did not say that everyone should be an Orthodox Jew, be what you want. I am not here to judge or to convert anyone, but to witness, that's all. The number one commandment is THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME!. That means a sun god, money, sex, or anything that takes the place of worshipping God. Your avatar, do you think that is of God. Explain to me what it is and I will do my research on it and bring you its unadulterated origin. Remember, its not about our knowldege or how smart we think we are. God's wisdom it so beyond ours that I can't put into words how silly our intellegence is to HIM. Its all vain babble. Get back to me.

Originally posted by djackson
Hey, I don't know who you are and really that does not matter. The only thing that matters is what God says.

You still are not addressing the issues. Where I come from, we call you're style of argument "playing dodgeball". In other words, you make foundless accusations, we call your bluff, and you ignore our rebuttal, moving on to something else completely different.

You cannot use "what God says" as your argument. I stand firm in my conviction that God hasn't said anything to you, and you're only repeating stuff you learned on conspiracy theory websites. And, my friend, there is a world of difference between what God thinks and what some 19 year old stoned out conspiracy theorist on his dad's computer thinks.

If you want to argue your case (whatever it actually is), then by all means do so. But if you want to be taken seriously, you have to use actual facts, and apply them in a rational manner. I don't think this is asking too much.

I am not here to judge or to convert anyone, but to witness, that's all.

Sir, I do believe that you are being insincere. Your witness here is false, as has been pointed out. You can't go around calling innocent people "satanists", and then claim to be right with God. This especially holds true when the person you are labeling a "satanist" was in fact a Christian. Once more, I'd strongly recommend that you remove the splinter in your own eye, before attempting to help others with their own.

Your avatar, do you think that is of God. Explain to me what it is and I will do my research on it and bring you its unadulterated origin.

His avatar is an image of the Nepalese philosopher and monk Siddhartha Gotama, known as the Buddha, but is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if he's a Buddhist, Christian, Jew, or Rastafarian. The only thing that matters in logical argument are premises built upon facts that reach a formal conclusion. Thus far, your arguments have been fallacious and have been disproved. Better luck next time.




[edit on 2-1-2005 by Masonic Light]

djackson , I just have to ask this. Has your toilet been attacked recently?

that just has to be the next occurence in your life that you will blame on
the Masons.

really if you are hearing voices you should mention it at your next visit, could be
something major, change of Meds. or something.

I have a few straight forward questions.

What is the official position of the Free Masons regarding

Race, color, creed, national origin and sexual orientation?

Education or financial requirments?

What is their position on equality of women, employment, abortion rights etc.

Is anyone excluded from membership and if so WHY?

Are contributions expected and if so to what degree?

When you speak of "craft " what exactly does that encompass?

Since there may be different policies depending on the individual lodge
what " red flags " should one look for that indicate perhaps one might
consider a different lodge?

Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
What is the official position of the Free Masons regarding
Race, color, creed, national origin and sexual orientation?

It's probably the most liberal organisation in the World with respect to the above. Freemasonry accepts men of any race, color creed, or national origin. It is also a worldwide organisation and can be found all over the planet.
Sexual orientation is an entirely personal subject and it is totally up to the individual how he indulges. A man can be heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual - it is irrelevant.

Education or financial requirments?

The only financial requirement is that you can afford to fork out the couple of hundred pounds (or dollars) that it costs you to join (you need some "regalia" etc). There is no educational requirement. Freemasonry probably had a lot of illiterate members when it began and this is part of the reason why symbols are used.

What is their position on equality of women, employment, abortion rights etc.

Freemasonry itself takes no stance over these issues. These choices are all down to the individual Freemason. Some of the above are political issues and Freemasonry forbids it's members to discuss politics in Lodge as this could damage the harmony found amongst it's members. Of course, we all have our personal opinions and they tend to be as diverse as those that you find in the general society to which we all belong.

Is anyone excluded from membership and if so WHY?

The only people excluded are atheists and those with severe criminal records. Atheists because there are spiritual aspects within Freemasonry that they may disagree with and disrupt, and criminals because they may also disrupt the harmony found within the Order. Having a criminal record per se does not exclude you - there are exceptions made. For example I know 40 year old men who have joined who were tearaways in their youth. Freemasonry recognised that they simply needed to grow up and that once they did, they became reasonable and responsible members of society. It doesn't always hold that a man should be punished for a failiure all his life if he has recognised and adjusted his shortcomings.

Are contributions expected and if so to what degree?

You normally pay a yearly fee to be a member of a degree (over here in the UK average £50 for Craft masonry, side degrees are normally half that). You are then expected to pay for your dinner (we dine together once a month, although it isn't compulsory). Charitable contributions are totally up to the individual. I've known some unemployed Freemasons that could only afford to donate 50p to charity - the amount is not frowned upon or lauded though. You also don't have to join other degrees if you don't have the time and inclination. In the UK you can be a Freemason for as little as £50 a year. So really, Freemasonry will only cost you what you want it to, after the small initial outlay.

When you speak of "craft " what exactly does that encompass?

"Craft" encompasses the first 3 degrees of regular Freemasonry. The word probably dates back to the days of operative stonemasons where their work was an artform or a "craft".

Since there may be different policies depending on the individual lodge what " red flags " should one look for that indicate perhaps one might
consider a different lodge?

Although each Lodge may have different policies regarding it's day to day running, all have to conform to some general principles laid down by their governing body - Grand Lodge. Probably the only things that would concern somebody who wants to join are the minor details, such as is your Lodge a dining Lodge (you have to pay for your dinners up front for a year), does your Lodge meet at a time appropriate for you etc. What sort of ritual does the Lodge use - emulation, local or a mixture? (although again this isn't really important).
These are all questions that can be answered by just contacting a member of that Lodge and asking.
Offhand, I can't think of any fundamentally deep differences between Lodges that would affect anyone who wishes to join Freemasonry. I know of no "red flags" - in general, if a Lodge wasn't operating in a way that is acceptable to it's members or new candidates, it wouldn't exist as they would all leave and go and join other Lodges.





[edit on 2-1-2005 by Leveller]

Perhaps you should be addressing youself to GLeamer or djackson

Yes, perhaps you're right. But, to be honest, their statements seemed to be more of a "Hey, here's some interesting stuff I've just read!" rather than any kind of "hatemongering" or attacking. On the other hand, the response was a very clear case of attack.

Keep in mind that just because I defend a persons right to have their say (without being blasted) doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with them.

Leveller,

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.
I'm sure many here will consider your post quite informative.

Originally posted by Al Vereco

Perhaps you should be addressing youself to GLeamer or djackson

Yes, perhaps you're right. But, to be honest, their statements seemed to be more of a "Hey, here's some interesting stuff I've just read!" rather than any kind of "hatemongering" or attacking. On the other hand, the response was a very clear case of attack.

Perhaps you should learn to read.
I can quite clearly see that the two mentioned characters refer to Freemasons as being corrupt and Satanic. If this isn't hate mongering or attacking then just what exactly is?
Also, "interesting stuff I've just read"? Where are the links to this "interesting stuff". It's as easy as anything to post something from the web to back up one's claim.

"The response was a very clear case of attack"? No. Calling you an idiot (or a satanist) is a form of attack. Rebuffing lies and asking for evidence is a form of defence.
Or do you deny the Freemasons here the very right of free speech that you demand for others?

[edit on 2-1-2005 by Leveller]

Quote: "The Masonry is rooted in Paganistic ideals... The Symbols that are associated with the Freemasonry are Paganistic."

Oh the absolute HORROR of it all - time to crawl back under your Rock my Dear Child!

Quote: "Albert Pike was a free worshipper of *SATAN*".

Albert Pike was not a so-called "SATANIST"! Why do you people throw this claim around so much? You do realize that to many that this is nothing less than a Slanderous Insult don't you? Albert Pike was a
BRILLIANT MAN! Why is it that anyone with a HIGH IQ - who has read many Books & even written a few (In addition he knew quite a few Languages) is so readily labeled a "SATANIST" by you Fundamentalists?

Perhaps because in actuality you Worship IGNORANCE & since you Fear what you don't know - anyone who is not a part of you & yours is a "Satanist". Well here is some news for you - we are here on the Internet & ATS in Particular in order to DENY IGNORANCE!!! (although some are simply here to spread Propaganda) Understand?

My avatar is the BoogieMan - BOO!

Oh Yeah just for your Information son - I am a FREE Thinker! A studier of ALL Religions & Philosophies & Symbols! If you can't take the heat then get out of the Kitchen - SLAVE to GOD Boy!

[edit on 2-1-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

The masons are just a bunch of world wide losely connected MEN,who have
doing good works for centuries.

They are spiritual and charitable in practice of their Craft.
and it's not their fault you goofy people think other wise.

They can't be held accountable for anything but good works
All the rest is a plot to rid the world of this fine group.

The stainless reputation cannot be sullied
They have secret knowledge and you don't you poor simpton

They have a lot of people in high positions in the government, but that was just luck .

And coincidences just kinda follow them along like a dog -by accident

Their plea of being so innocent screams their guilt

Getting a little heated here gang. Let cool heads prevail.

Gleamer the Freemasons are just ordinary men who love Freemasonry and it moral teachings. They do not have any power and often have been the victims of absolute Governments. The Fascist and Communists murdered thousands of Freemasons because they believed they were conspiring against their absolute states.

When will you provide credible evidence showing the wrong doing of Freemasonry and how wicked the Freemasons are??????

The reality of Freemasonry and Freemasons is a one of service to the community to their families and Freemasons. They do not plan to change Governments, destroy the toilets of Non Masons or worship the Devil. Freemasonry is a society of men who do a lot of good deeds in society. I see nothing wrong in being a Freemason and I am proud to be a part of the society.

Gerard

is so readily labeled a "SATANIST" by you Fundamentalists

maybe its the biggest word they can spell

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente.
Albert Pike was not a so-called "SATANIST"! Why do you people throw this claim around so much ?

Why?

“A lie told often enough becomes the truth.” -Lenin*
*This quote is often credited to Dr Joseph Goebbels, the nazi propaganda minister.

Birds of a feather...................

First off, no one Mason can speak for the whole of the Craft. Different jurisdictions have some different policies and other jurisdictions may not agree with them. Therefore, there is no "official policy" except in terms of each jurisdiction, or Grand Lodge. The Grand Lodge of the State of New York may have one view of things and the United Grand Lodge of England may have another, and if they are TOO different from one another they might not recognize each other as Masons.

Your first one is a very mixed bag. Our tradition excludes women from being Masons however, in areas there are jurisdictions that allow them either in mixed lodges or ones just for women alone. There should be no problems with color, creed, or national origin, but you might find that some lodges are more black or white than others since typically you encourage your friends to join and the brothers of that lodge may not have as many friends of different races. Sexual orientation is tricky since there still are those who see that as a moral issue of choice rather than one of genetic predisposition.

There is no minimum amount of education needed however, someone who can't read well or deal with complex, abstract thoughts may have a problem and might not get much out of it. Some lodges also have different initiation fees and yearly dues. Some might have low fees and others might have them quite high.

There is no "official postion" regarding equality of women, employment, abortion rights because those might be divisive issues and interfere with the harmony of the Lodge. Different Masons may, and frequently do have very different views on these things and it has no effect on their standing in Masonry.

A man who is an atheist would be not allowed membership in most jurisdictions that I know of. This is because belief in Diety is considered one of the Cornerstones of Freemasonry. A man who may have committed a felony might be excluded as well however, investigation would have to be done on whether it may be a sign that he has turned away from his previous crimes and now wishes to live a better life.

Were I in a lodge, or visiting brothers of a lodge and heard obvious bigoted comments, or racial slurs, I would go elsewhere.

Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
I have a few straight forward questions.

What is the official position of the Free Masons regarding

Race, color, creed, national origin and sexual orientation?

Education or financial requirments?

What is their position on equality of women, employment, abortion rights etc.

Is anyone excluded from membership and if so WHY?

Are contributions expected and if so to what degree?

When you speak of "craft " what exactly does that encompass?

Since there may be different policies depending on the individual lodge
what " red flags " should one look for that indicate perhaps one might
consider a different lodge?