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«Number of a man» vs. «Number of man»

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posted on Aug, 13 2015 @ 06:25 AM
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NB: Most of this was originally written here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Lots of Christians live in the delusion that the number of the beast is the number of mankind. It is not, or rather, it WAS not. Before the number of the beast was changed from 616 into 666 it was like the text says «the number of a man», but the Church took over, stroke out the middle iota with three streaks and it turned into a xi and then they changed the grammatical rules in Greek so the text would read «number of mankind 666» or just about, when it should really read «number of a man 616». Well that's my theory anyway.


Pic above: Text of Papyrus 47 [P47] has a variant of 666 where the middle Xi is an Iota with three strikes.


Pic above: Text of Papyrus 115 [P115] has 616 written with an Iota in the middle. You can easilly turn 616 into 666 by simply striking it out with three horizontal streaks.



The Greek [P47] text above says; or like Yoda would spell it out in brackets:
ἀριθμὸς [the number] γὰρ [indeed] ἀνθρώπου [a man's] ἐστίν [it is].

The concept of having Man (Heb. Adam, Gr. Anthropos) to mean Mankind or the Human Race is modern and subject to modern English and the Church mostly. It originates in how the Church reshaped Greek in the centuries after Christ. The NT concept of «The Son of Man» for instance, that is Gr. «ὁ υἱὸς τοὺ ἀνθρώπου», lit. «son of the man;» as if to read the «The Son of Mankind» is grammatically and syntactically very unGreek and in concept is foreign to any Biblical concepts of sons of men or gods or messiahs, whether promised or not— and was inserted into Greek language by the Church long after the fact, founded in «the Catholic epistles» AKA Paul mostly. Greek had no such concept of definiteness until the Church came around and reshaped the language for their own means, to build support for their claim of divine right to rule. The Church are experts in historical anachronisms and backwards engineering history and language to support their claims.

Point is, when John wrote the words above, he certainly wasn't talking about any number of mankind, but the number of a man. These things are evident of how many of the concepts these texts describe are foreign to Greek and these and yet other signs show us that these texts were once written in other languages before they were standardised and recorded in Greek. «The Son of Man» is good proof the Gospels and Revelation were originally written— and thus intended to be read— in Hebrew/Aramaic. «Bene 'Adam» is used several places in OT and simply means «son of Adam». When changing 616 into 666, they also changed «a man» into «mankind». Greek only has one article and it is definite. It is absent before anthropou, hence it is to be read «a man's».

The Church didn't just change the Greek grammar, however, they changed the bloody lexicons and introduced new words to backwards engineer scripture to mean new things. Hey they even reshaped the alphabets involved. They introduced capital letters in Greek and later minuscules in Latin, so they could gain support for their feudal system by discriminating between lord, Lord and LORD. Or like how in Greek there were no concept for «the Church» let alone a noun for it in the time of Jesus and Paul and John, and the noun Kyriakos wasn't introduced into Greek until a few hundred years after the books of NT were first written— still that didn't, and still doesn't— stop «the Church» from preaching how Paul was all about «the Church» this and «the Church» that, when there was no such thing as «a Church» around. The early Christians held assembly (ekklesia, a gathering) in eachother's homes and since they were being persecuted, they could typically meet in secret hidings, like how they evidently used the catacombs under Rome during Nero.

Thus the Church has founded their claim of legitimacy on what some might call forgery and a puff of smoke. Those are tricky materials for building foundations. In fact, the Bible is not about «the Church» at all, although any modern bible you'd pick up will typically contain the word Church more than 100 times. Only twice are words similar to the later introduced noun Kyriakos used in the Bible, once by Paul in 1 Corinthians (κυριακὸν) and in the intro of John's Apocalypse (κυριακῇ). Both places they are adjectives and translates «the lord's». Noun here is either Gr. Kyrios or Lat. Curia. While Kyrios means Lord, Curia refers to the highest office of authority in Rome, House of the Senate (under the goddess Nike/Victoria- as in Nicea and «He who conquers», well, carry on). Paul assumably refers to the Eucharist as in «The Lord's [κυριακὸν] Supper» while John probably refers to a day in the Roman calendar, an incomplete dating reference, maybe he states it's a sabbath, or he simply opens his discourse with a subtle complaint about his lengthy imprisonment, for «one day for the Lord is like a thousand years to men».

QED: Revelation 13:18 says «the number of a man», NOT «the number of man».
edit on 13-8-2015 by Utnapisjtim because: pics and captions + misc




posted on Aug, 13 2015 @ 09:04 AM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Interesting. Must be a cultural thing or Catholic or something?

I have really never heard anyone really try to substitute "Mankind" instead of "A Man" when referencing the # of the beast.

Everyone I interface with fully expects an AntiChrist World Leader to emerge.



posted on Aug, 13 2015 @ 09:21 AM
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a reply to: infolurker

The Book of Revelation is about Revealing Forgeries, and in the process, and quite ironically so, Revelation ended up as the most forged and doctored text in the NT. It's quite common among the littlepeople to spend their valuable time to «prove» Re 13:18 says the number of the beast is the number of Man, understood Mankind— which can only be right if you use grammar not yet introduced when the texts were written. The text says, that it is the number of a man, as in an individual. 616 was also most likely changed into 666 by adding three streaks to the middle iota turning it in to a capital Xi.

[align=center]Thus:
616 ==> 666
or:
ΧΙϚ ==> ΧΞϚ

Typically in the oldest copies of these texts, the two surrounding letters are minuscules, like in P47 below:

edit on 13-8-2015 by Utnapisjtim because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 13 2015 @ 09:41 AM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim

300 vs 4

Slightly more than 1% reference 616.


www.endtime.com...





Writings of Origen and Hippolytus (both of the 3rd century) attest strongly to the value of 666 as the correct reading [Burgon 136].

Most noteworthy however are the statements of Irenaeus, the 2nd century bishop of Lyon, known to be a disciple of Polycarp.

Polycarp is believed to have been a disciple of John, the author of Revelation. In his treatise, “Against Heresies,” Irenaeus deals with the subject of Revelation 13 and the number of the beast. In Book 5, Chapter 28 of this work, he states that the number of the beast is 666. In addition, Chapter 30 of the same work makes the following statement regarding the number 666:

“Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six…(portion elided)…I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads (author’s note: a decad is 10) they will have it that there is but one. [I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.] Others then received this reading without examination; some in their simplicity, and upon their own responsibility, making use of this number expressing one decad; while some, in their inexperience, have ventured to seek out a name which should contain the erroneous and spurious number.” [Roberts 558]


In summary, of the almost 300 Greek manuscripts containing Revelation, almost all of them state 666 as the number of the beast. The two oldest papyri are evenly divided in their reading, and over 80%of uncial manuscripts hold the reading of 666.


CONCLUSION “And his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” This statement from the last days’ prophecy of Revelation 13 gives a clue to the identity of the antichrist. God’s stated purpose in this verse is that we understand it correctly. This is especially true for those of us who live in the days immediately preceding the coming of Jesus Christ.

Unfortunately, some have questioned the accuracy of 666 as the number of the beast. Some have suggested that 616 is the real number. However, the majority of almost 300 Greek manuscripts, including the oldest and most valued, along with the evidence of early church writings and translations, all stand together as a great witness to the authenticity of 666 against a rather small set of four manuscripts and one early writer that make their claim for 616.

edit on 13-8-2015 by infolurker because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 13 2015 @ 09:55 AM
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a reply to: infolurker

Before this ends up being about 666 vs. 616, and not the text subject of this thread: All of those people you mention are heavily biased. Origen was born around the time Irenaeus wrote «Against Heresies» which is the first commentary on the subject, refering to and perhaps even paraphrase him, with Irenaeus needing reference to his teacher's teacher, John the Evangelist as a credibility booster. John the Evangelist, Polycarp's teacher, is NOT identical to John the Scribe who wrote the Apocalypse.

Please let's keep this thread about a man vs. mankind and not 616 vs. 666.

See www.abovetopsecret.com... for the 616/666 controversy.



posted on Aug, 13 2015 @ 09:59 AM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The number of a man/the number of the House/Name of Adoinkam, 666.

The nation of Israel was often called Jacob, and the number of Jacob was innumerable.

The "number of his name" refers to the number of descendants who carry his name. The only man with 666 descendants in the bible was Adonikam. So the Beast that rises from the Abyss will call himself Adonikam (God is risen).



posted on Aug, 13 2015 @ 10:11 AM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Gotcha,

I agree with you on the (Specific Man vs. Mankind) translation. I had never seen arguments for the latter.



posted on Aug, 13 2015 @ 10:23 AM
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originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Gotcha,

I agree with you on the (Specific Man vs. Mankind) translation. I had never seen arguments for the latter.


What I have figured here is that there was no concept of anthropos meaning mankind without the definite article before it. I argue that most NT texts were written in other languages than Greek. The frequent use of «Truly» (KJV: «Verily, verily, I say unto you») and «Mankind» (as in «Son of Man», which really reads «Son of the Man» in the Greek documents) are all evidence of Hebrew/Aramaic, first word Amen, latter one son of Adam, both frequently used idiomatic expressions in Hebrew and Aramaic— but not common in Greek. Not until a few centuries later when these standardised and highly doctored Greek documents (courtesy of the Roman Empire and the Catholic Church of course) had replaced all others conflicting documents from other powers in the struggle of being the True church.
edit on 13-8-2015 by Utnapisjtim because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 13 2015 @ 10:35 AM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Hmmm... I see.

This is where that is coming from:

In Kabbalistic Judaism the number 666 represents the creation and perfection of the world. The world was created in 6 days, and there are 6 cardinal directions (North, South, East, West, Up, Down).

‘The weight of gold received annually by Solomon amounted to six hundred and sixty-six talents of gold.

This is not the number of the Antichrist which is better found around the overbearing spirit of Saturn. If we look for an Antichrist, we might look for a more natural identity, perhaps closer to home : the natural ignorance, prejudice and establishment interests which willfully or woefully fail to recognize true Beauty. Something like last time, except last time was different. 666 is the number of ultimate good, as it is the number of mankind. Like the enigma of the Beast, mankind will prove ultimately good.


edit on 13-8-2015 by infolurker because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 13 2015 @ 10:50 AM
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a reply to: infolurker

The prophecy concerning the Number of the Beast says that the False Prophet (Catholic Church was Roman-friendly and Quislings to the earliest Christians, so False Prophet translates mostly and primarily into Bishop or Pope in my notes) will make his trick and I think that would be adding three streaks to the I in the middle so ΧΙϚ (616) becomes ΧΞϚ (666)— and in a puff of magic, the mark of the beast is turned from concerning one individual into becoming a curse upon «all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave» who would get in return «a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads» [ESV] (Re 13:16)— since the width of your hand and the height of your forehead is the same, and on arm's length one hand equals 1/36th of the horizon. Add numbers between 1 and 36 and you have 666. This direct relationship between the human anatomy and the space surrounding us was well known to the ancients who used it as undeniable proof that we were divine beings, As above So below, and they used this as the base of the geometrical system we still use today, dividing the circle into 360 degrees with 36 decans (same word as deacon and decanus, ruler of ten), and the arc degrees into 60 minutes and so on. It's base60 number theory. 120x3=360 (triangle) -> 90x4=360 (square) ->72x5=360 (pentagram) -> 60x6=360 (hexagram) -> 40x9=360 (enneagram) -> 45x8=360 (octagram) -> 36x10=360 (decagram). These numerical systems were chosen since they work in nearly all number bases. This is all about standardisation, doctoring and forging a kingdom for ones selves. The Bible is a handbook in becoming king. Common people were never intended to read it or be involved as anything other than cannon fodder. It was reserved for great kings, priests and orators defending them.
edit on 13-8-2015 by Utnapisjtim because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 13 2015 @ 05:21 PM
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The bible is a huge book based on wordplay. It uses language to obfuscate the truth. There's a reason why so many new languages have popped up over our history, it's to hide the meanings of the root languages and their words which hold truth within their meanings. The bible and its translations are an example of what the Tower of Babel symbolizes, the obfuscation of the truth through the dispersion of languages.

Great thread, S&F.
edit on 8/13/2015 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 14 2015 @ 05:03 AM
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originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
The bible is a huge book based on wordplay. It uses language to obfuscate the truth. There's a reason why so many new languages have popped up over our history, it's to hide the meanings of the root languages and their words which hold truth within their meanings.


Indeed it is. It is the spark that sets new kingdoms and languages in motion. The bible isn't meant for the little people, it is intended for kings and priests and orators of all kind. It's circular logics is steady as the Jormungand and the religion that's outlined is like the Fenris wolf. If you need a war, Bible has the spark for it. If you desire a kingdom of your own, Bible tells you how. If you want your priests to form a collegium and lay the premises of a church Bible has the recipe. If you need to gather society's hatters in symphony, look no further, Bible gives and gives.


The bible and its translations are an example of what the Tower of Babel symbolizes, the obfuscation of the truth through the dispersion of languages.


Indeed. When the rulers f### up, they change the language so that they were right anyway. So simple and elegant, yet so exactly unfair. Bible is a textbook of power and deception.



posted on Aug, 15 2015 @ 03:33 PM
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As above So below - The clock and 666:
600 minutes = 10 hours
60 minutes = 1 hour
6 minutes = 0.1 hour
666 minutes = 11.1 hours
11.1 / 12 x 360° = 333°
11.1 / 12 x 666 ≈ 616
11.1 / 12 = ♀ / ♂ height

Those are some pretty transcending repetitive numbers patterns on several levels simultaneously. Even more evidence 616/666 is actually quite divine in nature, to sum up a few misnomers. If you like this, check out www.abovetopsecret.com...
edit on 15-8-2015 by Utnapisjtim because: (no reason given)



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