And his number is 616?

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
I think my theory is simpler.
It began as "666" with a double meaning, a number representing Nero and also a symbolic number "Man being made the focus of worship in place of God" (whose notional number would be "777").
Then in some localities a different version of Nero's name generated the number 616, and scribes used this version without thinking about the double meaning.

Wouldn't all this be numerology and magic? None of these numbers mean anything in themselves. Only number I know that means something in a Biblical sense would be 1. God is One. The Revelation text itself says the number is the sum of a person's name. The name here is the translated or Graeco-Latin names Jesus and Ἰησοῦς both adds up to 616— and sin here is the theology that justifies scapegoating and acknowledges magical benefits of human sacrifice as something God desires. The same theology that teaches people that Jesus died for us, in our place, so that we may live, which is all bollocks of course.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim
It's a way of communicating something in symbolic form.

The whole point of the number, if you look at the verse in context instead of out of context, is that it represents a power which is opposed to Jesus and the followers of Jesus.
So whatever else it means, it is obviously not going to mean "Jesus".

Ah, but some gematria number values DO mean things in themselves. The number 496 of Malkuth (Kingdom) is the crucial dimension of a Yang-Mills gauge symmetry group that is free of quantum anomalies. The number 26 of Yahweh is the number of dimensions of space-time of spinless strings, according to a quantum-mechanical prediction of string theory. In fact, ALL the gematria number values of the ten Sephiroth of the Tree of Life (Otz Chiim) have been shown to be parameters of the mathematical description of holistic systems like superstrings. See the amazing research here that reveals the mathematical meaning of the gematria numbers of the ten Sephiroth in the four Kabbalistic Worlds.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: micpsi

Bollocks. Seriously.

That's just about the lamest example of hogwash I have ever seen about the 666/616 controversy. How about Ephraemi that holds ἑξακόσιοι δέκα ἕξ, that's a deliberate action behind it, and is not a typo.

There had to a reason for the variation in copying the numbers and this is the most plausible one I can think of. Typos would have been the most likely reason for errors of copying.

Using obscene words does not amount to a sound intellectual argument. So I treat your reply with the contempt it deserves.

a reply to: DISRAELI

And that opposing force would be the same which turned the renegade Hebrew rabbi יהשוה into a sacrificial lamb offering and European proto-king Jesus Christ. He wasn't always called Jesus you know. Only after Church and Empire took over.

Greek uses isopsephy .Revelation 13:18 text state:

"This is wisdom let them that have understanding calculate[ the root of word isopsephy..to count with stones] the name of the beast which is the number[same as] the number of man[kind] which is 666”.

This number is the name of “mankind”beast not “A” man and not 616 nor Nero.The number is the same as the beasts.John is having revealed to him what the scriptures are about.The 1st statement of the book of Revelation is…… the apocalypse (unveiling,uncovering,revealing) of Yahoshua hamashiach(the messiah).

The old testimony is about a nation of people called Israel(struggles with Elohim..God’s).They are the archetype of ALL of mankind.The new testimony is about Yahoshua(which means…Yahweh is deliverance).All of the scriptures testimony,testify of mankind’s Yahoshua.It is not a book(books) about how to live or ascend to “spiritual” maturity.That is religion and absolutely meaningless.

John mentions the 12 tribes of Israel(144 thousand) 2 times in Revelation(Rev 7 and Rev 14).The second time in Revelation 14:1 is one verse after the 666 of 13:18(there are no chapter breaks).The 144 thousand are Israel..the archetype of ALL of mankind standing(resurrected) on Mt. Zion.They are the chosen people of the creator God.That is what Revelation is synopsizing of ALL of the scripture.All of mankind being delivered by the creator God(Yahoshua).

It was foretold in the old testimony in the nation of Israel that mankind would turn it into religion (Israel..struggles with God’s) with all of their doctrines of men full of mysticism and religion.The creator God used simple math (that cannot be manipulated) in the form of gematria(Hebrew) and isopsephy(Greek..gentiles).

When the Israelites entered into the Sinai desert the creator God had them build a tabernacle temple.It had three sections.The outer court,The Holy place and the Holy of Holies.Once a year the high priest Aaron would enter the Holy of Holies and “represent the nation of Israel.He wore a breastplate that had 12 stones arranged in a 3x4 matrix.Each stone was a tribe/patriarch(heir son of Israel).This is the gematria of each of the tribes/patriarchs name.The read from birth order left to right top to bottom.

Judah-Simeon-Reuben
Gad-Naphtali-Dan
Zebulun-Issachar-Asher
Ephraim-Manasseh-Benjamin

the gematria of their names:
30-466-259
7-570-54
95-830-501
331-395-162

summed:
259+466+30+54+570+7+95+830+501+331+395+162=3700
331+395+162=888
95+830+501+54=1480
7+570+30+466+259=1332

The Hebrew name יְהוֹשֻׁעַ Yahoshua translated in Greek is Ἰησοῦς.... Iesous. The Hebrew name מָשִׁ֫יחַ mashiach translated in Greek is Χριστός (christos..christ)

The isopsephy of the names
Iesous=888
christ=1480
888+1480=2368
1480÷888=1.666…..

The name Yahoshua mashiach is clearly calculated in the the 12 tribes of Israel which is the archetype of mankind.The remaining names of the patriarchs sum:

7+570+30+466+259=1332
1332÷2=666
The beast=666
mankind=666

The simple math patterns inside the matrix are numerous.Here is an obvious simple one:
Patriarch 1+3+5+7+9+11=1850
Patriarch 2+4+6+8+10+12=1850
1850+1850=3700
(don’t even get me started on the number 37)

This is clear cut 5th grade math patterns.Not some mystic BS twisting of numbers to fit a mysticism or religion.The creator God “reveals” to mankind their creation through the only truth language….“math”.There is no mysticism or religion of the creator God.Those are the inventions of man in their corrupt religious mind(satan..the adversary) creating a God in their own image.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim
Now you are just using your hyper-active imagination, so there's no point in continuing the argument.
Anyone can play silly games with the text and make it mean what they want it to mean.
I'm only interested in discovering exactly what the writer wanted to communicate.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: akushla99

I'm not religious. Play your domination games somewhere else and please refer to the Faith and Theology forum if you intend to keep preaching. As an instrument with unimaginable historical impact, the Bible is very real, and very vicious. An Old Grumpy Serpent.

That's funny...You form a thread, positing the notion of a 'beast', I respond, You reply with, Å99 is preaching...where's the punchline?

I'm just one of the stand-up comedians at the Funsterclub...

If You are saying 'serpent', 'beast', 'satan' as analogue to the psychological condition that would refuse to face an inconvenient truth...then I agree...my responses mirror this...

Conspiracies in Religion is the correct place for my response to Your thread title...

Å99

a reply to: micpsi

There are many funnynumbers, with all sorts of codes and meanings connected to them IF you adhere to these systems. I am quite aware of the geometry of the Etz haChayim and the importance of numerology and gematria in Kabbalah. My question was rather rhetorical I'm afraid. For there is a dilemma involved.

originally posted by: Rex282

Greek uses isopsephy .Revelation 13:18 text state:

"This is wisdom let them that have understanding calculate[ the root of word isopsephy..to count with stones] the name of the beast which is the number[same as] the number of man[kind] which is 666”.

Red above: No, Greek word used is ψηφίζω or «pséphizó». The word «Isopsephy» isn't used in the bible at all. Isopsephy is the Greek equivalent of Hebrew gematria.

Blue above: Please show me where the definite article is used in the text you mistranslate epically. You almost sound like meself a few decades ago. Gr. ἀνθρώπου «anthropou» is genitive noun masc. singular of Gr. ἄνθρωπος «anthropos».

This number is the name of “mankind”beast not “A” man and not 616 nor Nero.

No. I just proved you wrong above. The text says literally "a man". Same goes with All the Son of Man delusions. He isn't the Son of Mankind, he is Son of The Man. And The Man here, is Mars, it's code for Caesar. Jesus was the son of Caesarion, Julius Caesar's son. This is why the Legion demon enter death willingly on his command. That's why instead of killing him, the soldiers by the cross healed him. That's why Pilate washed his hands refusing to have anything to do with his destiny as the last remaining Caesar, a Son of Mars (Mars means Man), i.e. Emperor of nearly the entire known world. Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. [ESV] Mark 12:17

ETA: That said, I again refer to the changes that happened when 616 was changed into 666. The prophecy was fulfilled in that what was once intended to mean one man, became a number that implicate the whole humankind.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
I'm not religious. Play your domination games somewhere else and please refer to the Faith and Theology forum if you intend to keep preaching. As an instrument with unimaginable historical impact, the Bible is very real, and very vicious. An Old Grumpy Serpent.

originally posted by: akushla99
That's funny...You form a thread, positing the notion of a 'beast', I respond, You reply with, Å99 is preaching...where's the punchline?

I'm just one of the stand-up comedians at the Funsterclub...

If You are saying 'serpent', 'beast', 'satan' as analogue to the psychological condition that would refuse to face an inconvenient truth...then I agree...my responses mirror this...

Conspiracies in Religion is the correct place for my response to Your thread title...

Å99

A99
Thanks for your irreligious insight and the ability to see through the inanity of some people that couldn't see a Forest Gump because of the trees.....

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
Now you are just using your hyper-active imagination, so there's no point in continuing the argument.

Are you claiming that Jesus died for your sins to be blotted away? That god sanctions and find use in human sacrifice? And was the good lord named Jesus by his parents? No that is all Church hogwash. The intended person behind the standardised myths of the 616/666 Jesus cult we call the Church— can we at least agree that he most likely had a Jewish name? Either Hosea, Isajah or Jeshua or something similar. Anything but Jesus, right? Too late to cry now, but neither of those adds up to 616 or 666. The translated ones all do on the other hand, Jesus, IESVS and Ἰησοῦς, see? The Apocalypse is all about consequences of change if only as little as a jod or an iota to the Apocalypse text. Not translate it, possibly since it is full of els codes and all sorts of geometric ciphers, but when needed be copied faithfully and perfectly by the best craftsmen. However, reality sucks, and no two Greek manuscripts are remotely identical and the whole book shows clear signs of originally being styled in another language than Greek.

Anyone can play silly games with the text and make it mean what they want it to mean.
I'm only interested in discovering exactly what the writer wanted to communicate.

Apparently John was a mere secretary or mediator for the angel of Jesus here.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

You and your empty theories. What a waste of potential.

a reply to: akushla99

You're delusional. I am refering to a book. I think prophecy is not just possible, but something which is fairly simple to do. That doesn't make me religious. These symbolic beasts, dragons and angels, I understand abstract thought can be hard for a person who has an itch due to the religious symbols involved. That should really be a reminder that discussing these things just ain't your thing, right?

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
What a waste of potential.

Better than being waste of potency, innit?

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: akushla99

You're delusional. I am refering to a book. I think prophecy is not just possible, but something which is fairly simple to do. That doesn't make me religious. These symbolic beasts, dragons and angels, I understand abstract thought can be hard for a person who has an itch due to the religious symbols involved. That should really be a reminder that discussing these things just ain't your thing, right?

Ad Hominem ALERT...

I never 'accused' You of being religious, my furry friend (small 'y' you, is different to large 'Y' You...You may have missed this)...

...and, don't worry, it's been 'my bag' for near 40 years...it IS my 'thing'...

...but as soon as I start seeing Ad Hom and assumptions on what might be 'my thing' - I withdraw to let You discuss the art of fairytales...

Cheers for the info...

Å99

originally posted by: akushla99]originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: akushla99

Utnapisjtim: I'm not religious. Play your domination games somewhere else and please refer to the Faith and Theology forum if you intend to keep preaching. As an instrument with unimaginable historical impact, the Bible is very real, and very vicious. An Old Grumpy Serpent.

Only if you BELIEVE it to be so (you are convinced/hoodwinked in/of its omnificent authority).

akushla99: That's funny...You form a thread, positing the notion of a 'beast', I respond, You reply with, Å99 is preaching...where's the punchline? I'm just one of the stand-up comedians at the Funsterclub...

You threatened his wide open legged soap box stance; (I opened a thread and was accused of using it for the purpose of blogging). You were preaching on his 12" by 12" platform (breached his personal space). A most outstanding"Funsterclub" standup performer; appearing at the ChuckleHut repeatedly by owner/audience demand.

akushla99: If You are saying 'serpent', 'beast', 'satan' as analogue to the psychological condition that would refuse to face an inconvenient truth...then I agree...my responses mirror this..Conspiracies in Religion is the correct place for my response to Your thread title...Å99

Not sure why fear is so successfully instilled in the human by the innocent words or potential negatives (cough) metaphors of "beast, Satan, Serpent" but the dark diabolical intent seems to have an ongoing EFFECTIVENESS in crushing the intellect of some here and have no idea why or how this works.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: DISRAELI

And that opposing force would be the same which turned the renegade Hebrew rabbi יהשוה into a sacrificial lamb offering and European proto-king Jesus Christ. He wasn't always called Jesus you know. Only after Church and Empire took over.

No opposing force whatsoever. No sacrificial lamb offering. This was an incubated 9 dimensional being down stepped to incarnate in the physical form to affect the Piscean paradigm as to cause the insertion of a brand new idea form (Christ Consciousness). Church/Empire took this idea and turned it into family court (probate belief system dogma); just another prolonged debate that deflects from the goal: understanding the 7th realm of awareness, Spirit in God form.

a reply to: DISRAELI

That is my take on it as well.

originally posted by: akushla99

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: akushla99

You're delusional. I am refering to a book. I think prophecy is not just possible, but something which is fairly simple to do. That doesn't make me religious. These symbolic beasts, dragons and angels, I understand abstract thought can be hard for a person who has an itch due to the religious symbols involved. That should really be a reminder that discussing these things just ain't your thing, right?

Ad Hominem ALERT...

Yes, sorry mate, I boiled over.

I never 'accused' You of being religious, my furry friend (small 'y' you, is different to large 'Y' You...You may have missed this)...

...and, don't worry, it's been 'my bag' for near 40 years...it IS my 'thing'...

Hehe, guess so....

...but as soon as I start seeing Ad Hom and assumptions on what might be 'my thing' - I withdraw to let You discuss the art of fairytales...

Cheers for the info...

Å99

Cheers, and sorry for being pissed off. Or rather overly enthusiastic.