Thermite or Explosives ?

originally posted by: tinymind
a reply to: Bedlam

I guess it is too late for these guys:

Sparklers are not thermite at all. So your example is worthless.

a reply to: firerescue

I have wondered why anyone who would look at pictures of obviously cut beams would even have to debate the whole plane/fire issue at all.

"Thermite or Explosives ?"

How about both ?
Exploding termites !
Old buildings , might have been infested..

Or . mabee the plan had stowaways..

originally posted by: firerescue

We have seen evidence of gigantic beams cut precisely, as by a compound such as thermite.

a reply to: ecapsretuo

You mean like this ........

sites.google.com...

sites.google.com...

So why is there a man with a torch sawing a beam in half if magic thermite would do it...???

sites.google.com...

it wasnt simply thermite that was found, but nano thermite..and you dont justgo around buying nano thermite

a reply to: kellyjay

it wasnt simply thermite that was found, but nano thermite..and you dont justgo around buying nano thermite

Not even nano-thermite was ever found at ground zero. I might add that Steven Jones and Richard Gage have been caught lying.

You posted the following photos, which you think, supports your case for nano-thermite, but you have committed a serious error by posting those photos and I have consistently warned that truthers continue to post disinformation on a regular basis and here is the proof.

First, your two photos.

Your Photo Reference 1

Your Photo Reference 2

Now, let's take a look at the rest of the story. Go to time line 1:15 in this video and you will see that clean-up crews made those cuts, not nano-thermite.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion

Yep, good point. And how huge, what's your estimate?

With regards to this aluminum molybdenum-rich particle in the WTC dust we may be talking about at least 2623°C to melt that Mo. Which is higher than the boiling point of thermite btw.

Also, for Portland cement we would need roughly 1450°C but can find lead oxides on the surface of mineral wool in the dust as well.(Page 21), which indicates 1749°C minimum.

(Page 21)

3.0 Other WTC Dust Characteristics: Coatings
The amount of energy introduced during the generation of the WTC Dust and the ensuing conflagration caused various components to vaporize. Vapor phase components with high boiling point and high melting point would have, as they cooled, tended to form precipitated particles or thin film deposits on available surfaces through condensation mechanisms. The results of this process would be the presence of a thin layer of deposited material on the surfaces of the dust particulate matter. Many of the materials, such as lead, cadmium, mercury and various organic compounds, vaporized and then condensed during the WTC Event.
A variety of analytical techniques were applied to characterize the surface chemistry of WTC materials. These analytical techniques included scanning electron microscopy/energy-dispersive spectroscopy (SEM/EDS), X-ray microprobe, and X-ray photoelectron spectroscopy (XPS). The SEM and microprobe techniques provided details that sparked interest in a closer look at the surface characteristics. XPS is a surface analysis technique that not only can detect most of the elements of the periodic table, but can also determine their oxidation state or binding energy. Thus XPS can provide chemical species information for elements. XPS is capable of analyzing components in the top 100 angstroms of surface. Because of the sensitivity to surface components, XPS is highly useful in the characterization of chemistry of the surface of the dust particles.
The XPS results indicate the presence of a thin contaminating film or coating associated with the surface of particles. These surface species could be a significant factor affecting the toxicity of the WTC Dust if the coatings on particles and fibers are composed of hazardous substances. The coatings vary in thickness from nanometers (monolayer) to finely dispersed sub- micron particles. The particles and coatings have been detected by low accelerating voltage back-scattered electron imaging, X-ray microprobe analysis, and high resolution XPS. For example, lead peaks from the surface of mineral wool were identified by XPS. The high-resolution, narrow-range XPS scan (Figure 25) led to the identification of two lead peaks representing lead oxide or lead sulfate. The presence of lead oxides on the surface of mineral wool indicates the exposure of high temperatures at which lead would have undergone vaporization, oxidation, and condensation on the surface of mineral wool. In addition to the trace amounts of lead, Table 2 indicates the presence of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, sodium, silicon, sulfur, chlorine and calcium on the surface of the mineral wool.

Lead (Pb)

Lead is element number 82 and is a semi-metal. It may be present in both raw
materials and fuels, the latter of which has a tendency to exhibit higher concentrations.
Lead is of particular concern with nontraditional fuels, such as used oils and tires, where
its concentrations may be higher (Bhatty 2004).
Lead is a volatile element, which results in higher concentrations in the emissions
and CKD (Bhatty 2004; Gartner 1980; Taylor 1997). Despite this fact, substantial
concentrations of lead have been detected in the clinker (Bhatty 2004; Gartner 1980).

Check


Cadmium (Cd)

Cadmium is element number 48, and is classified as a metal. Cd can be found in
small amounts in the raw materials as well as the fuels. Bhatty (2004) gives possible
concentration values for cadmium: limestone (0.035 to 0.1 ppm), clay/shale (0.016 to 0.3
ppm), coal (0.1 to 10 ppm), and used oil (4 ppm).

Check


Mercury (Hg)

Mercury is the 80th element and is classified as a metal. Hg may be found in very
small quantities in both raw materials and fuels. Some typical concentrations, provided
by Bhatty (2004), are limestone 0.03 ppm, clay/shale 0.45 ppm, and coal 0.27 ppm.


Check

Carbon (C)

Carbon is element number six on the periodic table, and is classified as a
nonmetal. It is present in very large quantities in both the raw materials and in the fuels.
Limestone is the major contributor of carbon to the raw materials. Any fuel that is used
will contain carbon in high concentrations.

Check

Nitrogen (N)

Element number seven is nitrogen. In its natural state, nitrogen is a gas. N, in
solid form as an oxide, can be found in both raw materials and fuels, and may be present
at high levels. Specifically, nitrogen may be found at 0.01 percent in raw materials, and
as high as two percent in fuels

Check


Chlorine (Cl)

Chlorine is the 17th element, and a nonmetal. Chlorine is commonly found in
both the raw materials and fuels. Bhatty (2004) has reported the following typical
concentrations: less than 0.02 percent by weight in raw materials and 10 to 2800 ppm in
traditional fuels. Limestone is quite often closely associated with Cl, as well as other
CaCO3 sources, particularly those derived from marine origins (Gartner 1980), which
may contain chloride levels up to 240 ppm (Bhatty 2004). The tendency toward refusederived
fuels, including scrap tires, is prone to contributing meaningful increases in
chloride levels

Check

Molybdenum (Mo)

Molybdenum is number 42 and is a metal. Mo can be present in both raw
materials and fuels in significant quantities. One supplementary raw material of
particular interest is coal fly ash, which has been shown to contain molybdenum at levels
up to 1.5 percent by weight (Bhatty 2004).
Molybdenum is not a volatile element and, in conjunction with its abundant
presence in the kiln components, can potentially be found at high concentrations in the
86
clinker. Blaine, Bean, and Hubbard (1965) have reported that these concentrations could
be as high as 0.05 percent.

Check



All of these elements are found in the fuels and can be expected to vaporised when the fuel is burned.


Oxygen, sodium, silicon, and calcium are known elements in the makeup of cement.


It's interesting to note that used tires are used as fuel in the kilns. The rubber in the tires burns completely with no smoke and the steel belted wire breaks down and becomes part of the clinker.

etd.auburn.edu...

a reply to: waypastvne

All of these elements are found in the fuels and can be expected to vaporised when the fuel is burned.

The temperatures to vaporize lead before it condensed on mineral wool are how high exactly? You've actually explained nothing. Funny how you folks concentrate on one aspect and tend to forget all the others. How about the sizes of said spheres and their overall concentrations? Any rickety explanations for that, too? Yep, let's ignore that Mo as well. Just a lousy barkeeper on some aluminum after all...



Portland cement production usually doesn't exceed 1450°C, does it?

originally posted by: PublicOpinion


The temperatures to vaporize lead before it condensed on mineral wool are how high exactly?

You are now driving a car that uses unleaded fuel because the lead in the old fuels would vaporise and attach its self to some part of the environment.

Still cant accept a reasonable explanation for your mysterious questions

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
let's ignore that Mo as well.

I didn't ignore it:

Molybdenum (Mo)

Molybdenum is number 42 and is a metal. Mo can be present in both raw
materials and fuels in significant quantities. One supplementary raw material of
particular interest is coal fly ash, which has been shown to contain molybdenum at levels
up to 1.5 percent by weight (Bhatty 2004).
Molybdenum is not a volatile element and, in conjunction with its abundant
presence in the kiln components, can potentially be found at high concentrations in the clinker. Blaine, Bean, and Hubbard (1965) have reported that these concentrations could
be as high as 0.05 percent.

Check

a reply to: Bedlam

Just curious. They usually use rotary calcinators, f.e. to drive carbon dioxide out of limestone. Don't they?

Commercial Scale Indirect Rotary Calciners for processing at temperatures of up to approximately 2,300°F (1,260°C). Pilot scale equipment is available for temperatures of excess of 2,500°F (1,370 °C).

www.tpshome.com...

This topic is like discussing, who killed JFK? Does it really matter, at this point? It was 14 years ago. The bandits got away. Does it matter HOW those 3 buildings fell down, when only 2 "planes" hit?

911 is "old news". LET IT GO!

We had the chance to stand up against corrupt/lying politicians, and we coward away. We even have the nerve to consider ANOTHER Bush, as our "leader", so..............

a reply to: waypastvne

We beg to differ.

However, it is worth noting that fly ash and partially combusted products can occur in trace concentrations in ordinary building dusts, but not in the concentrations observed in WTC Dust.

Page 19

Check(mate)?

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: waypastvne

We beg to differ.

However, it is worth noting that fly ash and partially combusted products can occur in trace concentrations in ordinary building dusts, but not in the concentrations observed in WTC Dust.

Page 19

Check(mate)?

I have already explained this to you twice:

Normal office dust doesn't contain a sh**load of fire proofing dust.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Sphere are produced during welding and grinding processes, which occurred during the construction of the WTC buildings.

We can also take a look at the following three photos.

Burning some scrap primer painted steel

in a wood fire in a barrel:

made iron microspheres

originally posted by: JuJuBee
This topic is like discussing, who killed JFK? Does it really matter, at this point? It was 14 years ago. The bandits got away. Does it matter HOW those 3 buildings fell down, when only 2 "planes" hit?

911 is "old news". LET IT GO!

We had the chance to stand up against corrupt/lying politicians, and we coward away. We even have the nerve to consider ANOTHER Bush, as our "leader", so..............

Exactly. Two countries invaded (in the conventional sense), an entire region and more torn apart, laws passed, enemies made, millions made homeless ill wounded and dead.

The warnings weren't listened to. The damage is already done. The pockets have already been lined. The earliest any light will shine on those terrible event looks to be 2035. It's already been 14 years. How much attention does that fateful day really get these days? We can argue untill we are blue in the face. It'll never change anything.

a reply to: sg1642

Exactly. Two countries invaded (in the conventional sense), an entire region and more torn apart, laws passed, enemies made, millions made homeless ill wounded and dead.

If you look at the rest of the story, the first Gulf Was was halted based on conditions imposed upon Iraq, which it accepted. Over the years, Iraq broke a number of conditions that halted the Gulf War, yet the UN failed to take action. In addition, it was an Iraqi citizen, code named: "Curve Ball," was responsible for the WMD claim inside Iraq, not the United States. However, WMD was eventually found in Iraq by U.S. troops. Since then, the United States pulled its combat troops out of Iraq.

Had Iraq lived up to the obligations that ended the first Gulf War, there would have been no second Gulf War,

In regard to Afghanistan, the Taliban was warned to turn over Osama bin Laden or else. The Taliban refused and the rest is history. Had they turned over OBL, there would not have been a war in Afghanistan. Since then, the United States removed the majority of combat troops out of Afghanistan.

The warnings weren't listened to.

And, those pre-9/11 warnings, which were issued from a number of countries around the world, were pointing their fingers Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda, not at the United States.

The claim that 9/11 was a false flag operation is false.

a reply to: waypastvne

Still cant accept a reasonable explanation for your mysterious questions

Yes we can! Did I miss something?

In Figure 2.8, the particle size distribution of the same three CKDs, where, “Dust G” is from the long-wet kiln, “Dust H” is from the long-dry kiln, and “Dust S” is from the alkali by-pass kiln is shown

Page 55/57


That's a decent study though, at least the size of particles is partly comparable. Good find! But we still found lead on mineral wool or stuff like chrysotile asbestos in the dust. Clearly not from jet-fuel or kiln, yes.

But you are correct, that's a hell lot of fireproofing in the dust. As if all that asbestos was blown out en masse. Here is the thing: if it was ripped from the steel cores during the impact... why should it still be found abundantly after the buildings collapsed, which effectively brought big crunks of concrete on top of it? Correct, another sign for more explosions during collapse. Thanks for the input!

originally posted by: PublicOpinion

Portland cement production usually doesn't exceed 1450°C, does it?

Flame temperature of cement kilns can reach 1927 C

The nature of the rotary kiln, which allows flame residence times of the order of 2–5 s and reaches temperatures as high as 2200 K, also makes cement kilns a competitive alternative to commercial incinerators for organic wastes and solvents

www.sciencedirect.com...

The temperatures to vaporize lead before it condensed on mineral wool are how high exactly?

1750 C

en.wikipedia.org...

The kiln rotates, contents fall through the flame.

originally posted by: skyeagle409
a reply to: sg1642

Exactly. Two countries invaded (in the conventional sense), an entire region and more torn apart, laws passed, enemies made, millions made homeless ill wounded and dead.

If you look at the rest of the story, the first Gulf Was was halted based on conditions imposed upon Iraq, which it accepted. Over the years, Iraq broke a number of conditions that halted the Gulf War, yet the UN failed to take action. In addition, it was an Iraqi citizen, code named: "Curve Ball," was responsible for the WMD claim inside Iraq, not the United States. However, WMD was eventually found in Iraq by U.S. troops. Since then, the United States pulled its combat troops out of Iraq.

Had Iraq lived up to the obligations that ended the first Gulf War, there would have been no second Gulf War,

In regard to Afghanistan, the Taliban was warned to turn over Osama bin Laden or else. The Taliban refused and the rest is history. Had they turned over OBL, there would not have been a war in Afghanistan. Since then, the United States removed the majority of combat troops out of Afghanistan.

The warnings weren't listened to.

And, those pre-9/11 warnings, which were issued from a number of countries around the world, were pointing their fingers Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda, not at the United States.

The claim that 9/11 was a false flag operation is false.

WMD's were eventually found that the UN and the US and UK knew about well before the 2003 invasion. Charles Duelfer has said as much. In any event the government lied about and exaggerated their claims to try and sway public opinion. I'm not sure if any of what was left was sold to him by our governments but there is every chance there was. The irony.

The white house was working before 9/11 on a strategy to deal with Bin Laden and the Taliban and had the opportunity to do so. But didn't. The Taliban were all well and good when they were signing off deals on pipe lines but were public enemy no.1 when they said no. They were public enemy no.1 when they granted bin laden safe haven in Afghanistan. They were given around $40,000,000 after the embassy bombings and before 9/11. While they were 'working on a strategy' to deal with them. The irony.

A group of men from Israel were filming the events of that day and were obviously quite happy. And obviously had a good idea it was going to happen. They all worked for a removal company. A removal company that the FBI believe was a front for a foreign intelligence gathering operation. Who all had military experience (no biggy, it's compulsory in Israel). Who had a visitor's pass for the WTC complex. (No biggy, they were tourists just like the intelligence gathering art students who were caught spying on the DEA and other government agencies. Just like the art students who camped out in the tower on the same floor the plane would hit a year later). It is in black and white in the FBI reports from when they were arrested and questioned. They must have had prior knowledge. They were visibly happy about the events. A bomb sniffing dog reacted to their van. They were linked to a removal company in Miami that also employed a group of men from Israel. A removal company that, after investigations, the FBI found out a man by the name of Mohammad Atta had used/been linked to. And that the men involved were most likely using the company as a cover for an intelligence gathering operation. The irony.

The claim 9/11 was a false flag may very well be false. But the claim that our governments haven't lied to us and acted suspiciously is equally false.

"We were looking for them overseas. They were here. People in our government knew that they were here. We were not told," Ali Soufan

'al-Mihdhar was a known terrorist that [the CIA] follows around the globe. He’s a subject of several cables, he comes to America ... and they allow him to leave America and go back to Yemen for the birth of his baby. And he comes back.' Mark Rossini

I could go on and on. False flag or not. There was a cover up and many lies told. That is a fact.