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While we weren't looking, Russia steals another 1.5 Km of Georgian territory

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posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 03:49 AM
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a reply to: Velatropa24

I am not a shill and I always enjoy it when people who cant refute facts relies on it to divert peoples attention away from that fact.

There are plenty of documented incidents of Russia violating Sweden and Finland's airspace. All you need to do is google it and you will see the numerous reports confirming it. You would also find several other countries where Russia has violated sovereign airspace. Let me repeat that for you.. Violating sovereign airspace and NOT ADIZ.

* - Two Russian attack planes intentionally violated the Swedish airspace to probe local air defense
* - Russia violates Finnish airspace three times in a week

Your inability to engage facts is problematic as it allows you to hide from the truth while dismissing it. Surely since you believe you are correct and the info I post is wrong then you can link me to your sources that debunk the info.

* - PEW - Russia, Putin Held in Low Regard around the World 2015




posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 04:24 AM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Velatropa24

I am not a shill and I always enjoy it when people who cant refute facts relies on it to divert peoples attention away from that fact.

There are plenty of documented incidents of Russia violating Sweden and Finland's airspace. All you need to do is google it and you will see the numerous reports confirming it. You would also find several other countries where Russia has violated sovereign airspace. Let me repeat that for you.. Violating sovereign airspace and NOT ADIZ.

* - Two Russian attack planes intentionally violated the Swedish airspace to probe local air defense
* - Russia violates Finnish airspace three times in a week

Your inability to engage facts is problematic as it allows you to hide from the truth while dismissing it. Surely since you believe you are correct and the info I post is wrong then you can link me to your sources that debunk the info.

* - PEW - Russia, Putin Held in Low Regard around the World 2015



Starting with the last - as a rule of thumb, an intelligent person always comes to his/her own conclusions rather then absorb what the masses feed them. If I for example cared about what is trendy, I would be a faggot who dresses like my favourite celebrity and votes for one of two candidates offered to me to be my leader, thinking that my voice counts and I have a choice. Your numbers mean nothing.

Violation of airspace - this is from your own article: "Even though the Swedish Armed Forces have not officially commented the incident, sources who talked to the Expressen said authorities believe the violation was aimed at probing the Swedish air defense readiness".

Conclusion - ferry tales. Not only is the source questionable, but the info itself could have many intentions, from an increase in defence budget to simply interesting headline to sell more newspapers. Honestly - grow up. Not everything on the Internet and the news is true. Learn to see agendas and intentions. Look at the bigger picture, how much deaths, misery and pain has United States caused worldwide in just the last 20 years? Who has been instigating regime changes through ngo's, colour revolutions, etc...

That's enough babysitting out of me. Not buying it.

Side note: in terms of cause and affect, hate is a direct effect of fear (cause). Fear is an effect of a lack of knowledge/understanding. Keeping in mind what I said above, review your history here on ATS, you may come to some surprising conclusions


edit on 11-8-2015 by Velatropa24 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 07:52 AM
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Well if your Russia things are so bad you have do what little you can do to secure what your trying hold. Things internally are getting ugly despite media and internet controls. The GDP has shrunk almost 5%, the Ruble is dropping yet again, food prices are up 20%, it is even facing a gas shortage as prices rise over 6% and nothing points to things getting better.

Russia has lost influence in most of its former republics to either the West or China. Its military is having all kinds of problems. Putin again is trying to fix the reserve system and make it more like the West. Right now you do your one year of service then are put in the reserves but you do not train of get payed. While in the US reserve forces train monthly and have extended training once a year. He tried this before but, the military sabotaged the experiment with the view that everybody is in the reserves. They are giving it another go with a goal of 5000 men. Putin also has been pushing for a professional force but, remains dependent on 1 year conscripts because nobody wants to volunteer and now with the mess in Ukraine units have gotten out right rebellious when threatened to be sent. Putin seems to a barely trained military is not going to make it on a modern battlefield but the corrupt military system he created to keep loyal to himself is now also ruining any chance of real reforms.

In Georgia Putin worries not so much about NATO but, about the Turkey, Azerbaijan, Georgia grouping. With Armenia unhappy as well it creates a ton real problems that Russian just can not deal with while engaged in Ukraine. So if moving a fence gives them a better advantage then they are going to do it. Russia does not have anything to lose, open war is unlikely.

And for the West additional pressure comes with real risks the Russia could fall apart. That would be a disaster.



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 07:59 AM
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a reply to: MrSpad

It is likely that if Russia is verging on economic disaster that a nationalist like Putin would engage in an all out war thus revamping his country.



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 08:12 AM
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There were people looking at what was going on at the time in Georgia : NATO was conducting a military drill.

‘Agile Spirit’: NATO military exercises kick off in Georgia

Could this be the reason why Putin decided to play with the nerves of those who want to do the same to him ?



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 08:29 AM
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a reply to: MrSpad

Armenia is never going to go 'west' with Russian Army stationed bang in the middle of the country plus all the business interests between the controlling elite. Armenia is totally integrated within Russia just like eastern Ukraine, Kazachstan, Belarus, etc.



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 08:34 AM
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Guys, please don't allow a certain individual to derail the thread with the usual distraction tactics, you're falling for it.

Do not engage them, please ignore their diversionary efforts and stick to the story being discussed.


Thanks.



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 03:18 PM
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originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: MrSpad

It is likely that if Russia is verging on economic disaster that a nationalist like Putin would engage in an all out war thus revamping his country.


I do not know if the military would fight. If Russia was invaded sure but, on some kind invasion of West, they would likely revolt. Another problem is that Putin handed Chechnya over to a guy who is basically a warlord. He gets money from Putin and is allowed to run things as he sees fit, he even has his own military forced. In return he keeps Chechnya from going back into rebellion. The problem here is now that this guy Ramzan Kadyrov refuses to acknowledge the authority of Moscow while at the same time swearing loyalty to Putin. The FSB Russia security service sees him as a threat and wants to remove him, Putin does not and this has caused a great deal of tension between them So Putin has military and internal security problems, going off on an all out war at this time would likely end up with him being couped.



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 03:22 PM
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originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
a reply to: MrSpad

Armenia is never going to go 'west' with Russian Army stationed bang in the middle of the country plus all the business interests between the controlling elite. Armenia is totally integrated within Russia just like eastern Ukraine, Kazachstan, Belarus, etc.


Yes those troops are key to keeping Armenia in line but, more and more Russia can ill afford to keep them there. It is just one more place Russian troops have to be to keep trying to hold things together.



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 03:29 PM
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a reply to: MrSpad

Perhaps but are these events not reminiscent? History doesn't repeat but it rhymes, who's to say he couldn't kill off any naysayers? Isn't is support by the population something like 90% surely that number is jacked up be even with a majority we have seen nationalists who are able to charasmaticly gather the hearts and minds and focus them on a common enemy and with economic disaster on the horizon this certainly seems possible. I am friends with a polish woman we talk often and she is very concerned with putins moves infact everyone is over there. She said she already has plans in the event another large scale move my Russia is made, and to head west. Im not saying it will happen and yes I hope it fizzles out if there's even a chance the gears start turning. We should still remain vigilant and I know the west is. Always appreciate your thoughts thanks brother.



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 03:56 PM
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a reply to: Velatropa24




Funny how no one cares anymore about your anti-Russia propaganda, other then the usual anti-Russia shills having a cry amongst themselves. Everyone knows who you are and what your agenda is, no one cares. Scraping the bottom of the barrell here. Very well, continue.
edit on 10-8-2015 by Velatropa24 because: (no reason given)


SO nothing about the topic of the thread...just the personal attacks.

Amazing...



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 04:09 PM
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originally posted by: Rocker2013
.......
A small number of ATS members, including myself, suggested from the beginning that Ukraine was not the end goal, that more would follow.........

How many other "soft targets" are there for Russia, before it meets a response from Nato?


and thus justify their position that "everyone is against us"......

As a tactic for getting a common enemy you have to admit that your proposed response falls right into their hands!

It also pays to remember that Russia is not and never has been a democracy or a civil society - their entire culture is inculcated with the power of a strong head of state - that is what they think is the natural order of things (in the most general of senses) and why Putin is so popular - a combination of nationalism, external threat, and strong leader seen as dealing with it all.

the only way I see to stop this is to call his bluff - to do the "fighting" by "proxy" - to ensure that Ukraine and Georgia and Chechyns are relatively well armed and able to keep sending Russian soldiers home in body bags.

It's expensive, and sucks to be in one of the border states - but unless you are going to mobilise 3+ million soldiers for a full blown invasion (and we know how well those work!!) the economic and social fallout in Russia is hat is going to stop Putin, if anything (IMO)



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 04:27 PM
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An interesting article talking about the very things we have been talking about for some time.

Putin is actually in serious trouble


Are little green men about to appear on the North Pole?

Russia's claim last week, using an extremely creative interpretation of international law, to exclusive economic rights to nearly half a million square miles of the Arctic Sea, was certainly a head scratcher.

Sure the territory is valuable due to its untapped reserves of fossil fuels and for the shipping lanes that will open as Arctic ice melts. But the claim is likely to ultimately be rejected by the United Nations.

At the same time, sparking a manufactured international crisis over the Arctic, one that pits Russia against the United States and Canada, might be just what the doctor ordered.

Why? Because Vladimir Putin badly needs to make a new action movie to distract his people.

The Kremlin leader is boxed in on so many fronts right now that he badly needs to change the subject.


Click link for remainder of article.



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 05:23 PM
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originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: MrSpad

Perhaps but are these events not reminiscent? History doesn't repeat but it rhymes, who's to say he couldn't kill off any naysayers? Isn't is support by the population something like 90% surely that number is jacked up be even with a majority we have seen nationalists who are able to charasmaticly gather the hearts and minds and focus them on a common enemy and with economic disaster on the horizon this certainly seems possible. I am friends with a polish woman we talk often and she is very concerned with putins moves infact everyone is over there. She said she already has plans in the event another large scale move my Russia is made, and to head west. Im not saying it will happen and yes I hope it fizzles out if there's even a chance the gears start turning. We should still remain vigilant and I know the west is. Always appreciate your thoughts thanks brother.


Oh we certainly should be ready for anything. You never know what could happen. And Putin might even try something like that but, the military is just in no shape for it. We would see it coming a mile away. Right now he has less than 800K active duty forces, all branches. Of that only about 220,000 are professional soldiers and the rest 1 year conscripts who have been considered unfit for duty in both the Georgia and Ukraine actions. His reserves are in even worse shape since the do not drill unless they are called up for an exercise which is more a head count than anything else. And even that is very rare. You take those men and throw them against Western trained troops and they will be routed. Putin's only real military options are ones where he can achieve a limited objective with his professional forces. Maybe a border town in the one of the Baltic states. But even then with new NATO reaction force that would be a bad idea. Now he could call out the reserves extend conscription contracts and then spend a year or two training them up but, the West would see that and respond.

Russia also has a huge weakness at what is the heart of Western forces, NCOs. This is another reform Putin tried but, again they never got the volunteers. The Russian military is in desperate need of reform. Of course what can you expect when you are trying to main a military 1/3 the size of the US only using 1/15 of the budget. And to make it worse the corruption is making things even worse. Officers are more interested in lining their pockets than preparing their troops for war. China has some problems in that area as well but, they at least try and crack down on it. So while we should be ready for any crazy Russian moves, I think Putin would likely find his head on a platter if he tried anything like that. What I fear more is Russia collapsing. That would be a nightmare.



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 06:06 PM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
An interesting article talking about the very things we have been talking about for some time.

Putin is actually in serious trouble


Are little green men about to appear on the North Pole?

Russia's claim last week, using an extremely creative interpretation of international law, to exclusive economic rights to nearly half a million square miles of the Arctic Sea, was certainly a head scratcher.

Sure the territory is valuable due to its untapped reserves of fossil fuels and for the shipping lanes that will open as Arctic ice melts. But the claim is likely to ultimately be rejected by the United Nations.

At the same time, sparking a manufactured international crisis over the Arctic, one that pits Russia against the United States and Canada, might be just what the doctor ordered.

Why? Because Vladimir Putin badly needs to make a new action movie to distract his people.

The Kremlin leader is boxed in on so many fronts right now that he badly needs to change the subject.


Click link for remainder of article.


That's wishful thinking. Putin is not in any trouble. Russia is a lot better now then during the last 20-30 years when it was a mess. Life for the people in Russia is a lot better and people are a lot happier. Quite a contrast really. The sanctions Iimposed on Russia, have done nothing but good for Russian businesses and Russian military industrial complex to, pushing it into less dependency and more self-sufficiency.

As for the article, Russia will claim what's there's (Lomonosov Shelf). Russia has the will, the moral rights and the means to protect it. USA and Canada can and will do nothing about it.
edit on 11-8-2015 by Velatropa24 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 06:14 PM
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originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul

originally posted by: Rocker2013
.......
A small number of ATS members, including myself, suggested from the beginning that Ukraine was not the end goal, that more would follow.........

How many other "soft targets" are there for Russia, before it meets a response from Nato?


and thus justify their position that "everyone is against us"......

As a tactic for getting a common enemy you have to admit that your proposed response falls right into their hands!

It also pays to remember that Russia is not and never has been a democracy or a civil society - their entire culture is inculcated with the power of a strong head of state - that is what they think is the natural order of things (in the most general of senses) and why Putin is so popular - a combination of nationalism, external threat, and strong leader seen as dealing with it all.

the only way I see to stop this is to call his bluff - to do the "fighting" by "proxy" - to ensure that Ukraine and Georgia and Chechyns are relatively well armed and able to keep sending Russian soldiers home in body bags.

It's expensive, and sucks to be in one of the border states - but unless you are going to mobilise 3+ million soldiers for a full blown invasion (and we know how well those work!!) the economic and social fallout in Russia is hat is going to stop Putin, if anything (IMO)


There we go, straight from an average American's mouth. That's what has been happening all along. Not only in Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova but worldwide. America causing trouble/separatism/civil wars.
Mothers are crying for there dead children, people are suffering and couch warriors like yourself with an iq of a potato encouraging them, voting for your leadership allowing them to do what they do, allowing animals like McCain and Souros to do what they do. Go Murrca!

At least this one has some vague understanding about what is happening, I'll give him credit for that.
edit on 11-8-2015 by Velatropa24 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 06:48 PM
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Actually there ARE signs that the Russian people are getting concerned now about the actions of Putin. I cite the example of Putin ordering all western foods to be destroyed. This is a criminal waste of food. Russians are gathering a petition to present to Putin to reverse this policy to at least feed the homeless with the unwanted food rather than letting good food go to waste. Or indeed I would be inclined to ship it to disaster zones around the world.

There WILL be a revolution in Russia, it is a question of WHEN not IF. I think it may be a few years away yet as Putin has taken over the free press and media outlets. But it will happen eventually if Putin carries on like this and more and more body bags are flown home back to Russia from its excursions into foreign lands.

Oh and by the way did we ever find out what nationality that sub was which entered Swedish waters a few months back? May have been Norway thinking about it.



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 06:52 PM
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As to Georgia, I think Russia will get away with this land grab, but if they go any deeper into Georgian territory then they really will be facing protest from Nato/UN et al. After all, if the West/NATO for example walked into Russian land that is internationally recognised as belonging to Russia then quite rightly there would be an outcry. But there has not been an incursion certainly not since WW2 and I suspect the last time that it happened was in the 1920s during the Russian Civil War.



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 07:02 PM
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originally posted by: Velatropa24

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul

originally posted by: Rocker2013
.......
A small number of ATS members, including myself, suggested from the beginning that Ukraine was not the end goal, that more would follow.........

How many other "soft targets" are there for Russia, before it meets a response from Nato?


and thus justify their position that "everyone is against us"......

As a tactic for getting a common enemy you have to admit that your proposed response falls right into their hands!

It also pays to remember that Russia is not and never has been a democracy or a civil society - their entire culture is inculcated with the power of a strong head of state - that is what they think is the natural order of things (in the most general of senses) and why Putin is so popular - a combination of nationalism, external threat, and strong leader seen as dealing with it all.

the only way I see to stop this is to call his bluff - to do the "fighting" by "proxy" - to ensure that Ukraine and Georgia and Chechyns are relatively well armed and able to keep sending Russian soldiers home in body bags.

It's expensive, and sucks to be in one of the border states - but unless you are going to mobilise 3+ million soldiers for a full blown invasion (and we know how well those work!!) the economic and social fallout in Russia is hat is going to stop Putin, if anything (IMO)


There we go, straight from an average American's mouth.


I am not American, have only been in America (USA) for a total of about 5 weeks of my life, have no American ancestors or offspring that I know of.

Sorry about that.



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 07:07 PM
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originally posted by: Wirral Bagpuss
Actually there ARE signs that the Russian people are getting concerned now about the actions of Putin. I cite the example of Putin ordering all western foods to be destroyed. This is a criminal waste of food. Russians are gathering a petition to present to Putin to reverse this policy to at least feed the homeless with the unwanted food rather than letting good food go to waste. Or indeed I would be inclined to ship it to disaster zones around the world.

There WILL be a revolution in Russia, it is a question of WHEN not IF. I think it may be a few years away yet as Putin has taken over the free press and media outlets. But it will happen eventually if Putin carries on like this and more and more body bags are flown home back to Russia from its excursions into foreign lands.

Oh and by the way did we ever find out what nationality that sub was which entered Swedish waters a few months back? May have been Norway thinking about it.


There will not be a Revolution in Russia. Or China. Not to say Americans haven't been trying. But your mechanisms are well known and measures are in place to counteract them. Russians are happy with there leadership, more then ever before. Sure there is the unpopular food thing, but people don't go and start revolutions over something like that. Once again wishful thinking. And I have some more news for you which will probably disappoint you - even if Putin is gone, the new leadership will not be any more friendly to the West, as Russians will do what's good for Russia, not US. Russia was never, is not, and will never be your colony or puppet state. Russia is here, they are strong and truily independent. Accept it and get used to it.



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