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Baby’s lives matter: Journalist questions abortion after PP videos

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posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 05:23 PM
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a reply to: kellyjay

So you're going with the "damn the source" tactic. Okay.

Did you read any of the evidence presented there?

When you say that you're "pro choice" what does that mean, precisely?

We're not arguing what the White House said (and, you've misquoted that) we're arguing that the "unedited videos" are still edited, still cut together, etc.

That WAS your question, right? Or was that merely a jumping off point to diffuse the point?

None of these videos show any wrongdoing, any law breaking, etc. What they do show is the "Center for Medical Progress" folks doing everything they can to lead the people that they were illegally recording and to whom they had unlawfully misrepresented themselves into giving them a sound byte to throw the the masses of anti-choice zealots.

Why release them? The US Congress is trying to defund one of the largest health-care providers in the nation (through Medicare payments) on the basis of zero evidence of wrong-doing in the absence of even one of their hack-job investigations?

The mind boggles at how you folks can still claim to be against government overreach.




posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 05:28 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: kellyjay

So you're going with the "damn the source" tactic. Okay.

Did you read any of the evidence presented there?

When you say that you're "pro choice" what does that mean, precisely?

We're not arguing what the White House said (and, you've misquoted that) we're arguing that the "unedited videos" are still edited, still cut together, etc.

That WAS your question, right? Or was that merely a jumping off point to diffuse the point?

None of these videos show any wrongdoing, any law breaking, etc. What they do show is the "Center for Medical Progress" folks doing everything they can to lead the people that they were illegally recording and to whom they had unlawfully misrepresented themselves into giving them a sound byte to throw the the masses of anti-choice zealots.

Why release them? The US Congress is trying to defund one of the largest health-care providers in the nation (through Medicare payments) on the basis of zero evidence of wrong-doing in the absence of even one of their hack-job investigations?

The mind boggles at how you folks can still claim to be against government overreach.


i watched the videos, and i watched the word come out of their moving lips, so what they said isnt edited,

"The US Congress is trying to defund one of the largest health-care providers in the nation (through Medicare payments) on the basis of zero evidence of wrong-doing in the absence of even one of their hack-job investigations?"

ah yes i forgot that big bogeyman "war on women" even though congress have sad that the funds they take away from PP will go to other clinics and organisations that deal with womens health....but then wasnt that what obamacare was for?



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 05:36 PM
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a reply to: kellyjay

Which words said by whom in the videos are you referring to? Can you be more specific?

Did I say "war on women"? And I take it you're fine with Congress acting without having any facts before it?

Can you quote your Congressional source?

Oh, an Obamacare slam too. LOL.

Let me save you some time. If you want to discuss this with me, stay on topic and restrain yourself to what I actually say, rather than what you want to hear or what suits your agenda, eh?

Followup: What do you mean when you say you are "pro-choice"?



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 05:45 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

the lamborghini comment, and when shes talking about speaking to the doctor to use less evasive measures to try get more intact specimens?

or when they are seen picking around in a bowl of a "war torn" fetus, and the woman is talking about either pricing as a whole or pricing by parts that way they can see how much they can get out of it.....

"The US Congress is trying to defund one of the largest health-care providers in the nation (through Medicare payments) on the basis of zero evidence of wrong-doing in the absence of even one of their hack-job investigations?"

skirting around it www.dailykos.com...

"What do you mean when you say you are "pro-choice"?"

if you dont know what pro-choice means i suggest you google it, unless of course you think my definition varys from the norm?



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 05:53 PM
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a reply to: kellyjay

I'm aware what "pro-choice" means in general, and to me. I was doing you the courtesy of allowing you to speak for yourself.

I see that was wasted.

So, because certain employees made untoward comments, you're ready to damn the whole of Planned Parenthood, everywhere? When every time that Planned Parenthood has been investigated, at times for these same baseless accusations that were made by this same group previously, there has been ZERO finding of wrongdoing ... but still, somehow, someway you seem to think that means we should try to shut down 700 locations and 59 affiliates on ... no evidence at all????

I want you to state that outright. That based on the comments of this handful of individuals that were unlawfully recorded and set up, that you're willing to throw away one of the most important sources for women's healthcare in this country ... for no proven reasons.

If you're pro-choice, what problem do you have with what people say about aborted fetuses? Would you rather the fetuses be thrown away? Incinerated?

What is your preference here, being that you are "pro-choice" in the matter?

If you were "pro-choice" I would think that you would value one of the last national organizations that are offering the healthcare services, including abortion, that are so desperately and obviously needed in this country.

So, you don't have any "Congressional Quotes" that you want to share, eh? Why not? Did you misspeak?

I didn't "skirt around" anything. I stated the facts. You're desperately (for some reason) trying to spin what I am saying into what you need me to say for your argument.

You're going to have to get up earlier in the morning than you are.

edit on 17Tue, 11 Aug 2015 17:56:50 -050015p052015866 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 06:01 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: kellyjay

I'm aware what "pro-choice" means in general, and to me. I was doing you the courtesy of allowing you to speak for yourself.

I see that was wasted.

So, because certain employees made untoward comments, you're ready to damn the whole of Planned Parenthood, everywhere? When every time that Planned Parenthood has been investigated, at times for these same baseless accusations that were made by this same group previously, there has been ZERO finding of wrongdoing ... but still, somehow, someway you seem to think that means we should try to shut down 700 locations and 59 affiliates on ... no evidence at all????

I want you to state that outright. That based on the comments of this handful of individuals that were unlawfully recorded and set up, that you're willing to throw away one of the most important sources for women's healthcare in this country ... for no proven reasons.

If you're pro-choice, what problem do you have with what people say about aborted fetuses? Would you rather the fetuses be thrown away? Incinerated?

What is your preference here, being that you are "pro-choice" in the matter?

If you were "pro-choice" I would think that you would value one of the last national organizations that are offering the healthcare services, including abortion, that are so desperately and obviously needed in this country.

So, you don't have any "Congressional Quotes" that you want to share, eh? Why not? Did you misspeak?

I didn't "skirt around" anything. I stated the facts. You're desperately (for some reason) trying to spin what I am saying into what you need me to say for your argument.

You're going to have to get up earlier in the morning than you are.


"congressional quotes" heres the bill, and please note in this link the amount of other clinics compared to the amount of PP clinics per state www.lifenews.com...

Im in support of an investigation and if foulplay is found then im all for defunding PP yes.

"If you're pro-choice, what problem do you have with what people say about aborted fetuses? Would you rather the fetuses be thrown away? Incinerated?" no id rather them be DONATED and not sold for profit

im pro-choice in that i support a womans right to her autonomy, and the right to choose...very simple



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 06:04 PM
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a reply to: kellyjay

Do you have proof that fetuses are being sold for profit?

Why don't you show us?

You're quoting lifenews.com and you accuse me of media bias?

LOL. That's rich.
edit on 18Tue, 11 Aug 2015 18:07:09 -050015p062015866 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 06:12 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: kellyjay

Do you have proof that fetuses are being sold for profit?

Why don't you show us?

You're quoting lifenews.com and you accuse me of media bias?

LOL. That's rich.


Thats kind of the point of an investigation, like i said if the investigation shows any foulplay then i think they should be defunded

link to the bill www.congress.gov...



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 06:20 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66




As I said, you were arguing that facts change, and that all current scientific understanding is in some kind of limbo state. You keep arguing rather irritatingly that the world was "flat" before a certain point (however, the even the ancient Greeks and many other cultures knew that the world was round and/or spherical ((and they learned that by doing science), so please leave that spurious example to the side.)


Reading comprehension please .

I NEVER SAID the world was flat. scientific knowledge at one point said it was flat . (REALITY it has ALWAYS BEEN ROUND) threw observation scientific facts changed due to new data . The real physical world never changes it what we think about it that changes.

I asked if you thought the world was flat . As a jest to your idea that science is right ALL THE TIME and science never contradicts its self.




Why does pointing out the religious basis of these "anti-choice" BS arguments irritate you so? Surely you're not ashamed of religion?


No it amazes me how hung up you are on religion . Its like you have to argue religion. You talk about science then try to divert to religion. Why ?

If i wanted to argue religion I would go to the conspiracy in religion forum.




Because they have no origin or basis in any science.



Okay I will on just this one. Many cultures believed the world was on the back of a turtle or flat . Judaism said earth was a ball floating in the sky as did Christianity and Islam. so while science said earth was flat certain religions were right.





If you want to play an "if" game, why don't we do a very rational "if" that at puberty, both boys and girls are made temporarily infertile and have to apply for a license from their State to become fertile again.


Ahh right out of Margaret Sangers ideology . She also thought blacks jews and the poor as useless eaters also and should be sterilized?

My reply to your if game teens need information and access to birth control devices. Our county health office hands out rubbers. And scrips for pills . Our PP is open 3 days a week and does mainly abortions they dont have a help your self rubber jar 6 days a week access like the county does.


And you talk about others going statist





And don't try the "Statist! You want the government to be in control of reproduction" BS, because that is EXACTLY what you and the rest of the Zealots are arguing for.



I am arguing for a equality in laws . so asking for equality in laws is statist and im a Zealot.

Verbal twister game your playing

My wild stab was questioning your guidelines for abortion as viability . Since viability has changed in the last 50 years . Will your bar for an abortion change if advances allow viability at a younger age.

Following advances in prenatal care how is it a shot in the dark?

You laid out viability but never said when you consider abortion as murder or is that only after fully leaving the woman's body.

I will give you my view its after viability. see thats not hard . When is yours ?



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 06:36 PM
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a reply to: kellyjay




the lamborghini comment, and when shes talking about speaking to the doctor to use less evasive measures to try get more intact specimens?


Why would that upset you? Most people are upset when doctors crush a dead fetus' skull during an abortion, to make their job go a little faster and easier. Asking, or suggesting that a doctor would consider on their own, a gentler, less destructive use of forceps, to keep a dead fetus in tact for the sake of medical research and science, isn't illegal or immoral.



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 06:44 PM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: kellyjay




the lamborghini comment, and when shes talking about speaking to the doctor to use less evasive measures to try get more intact specimens?


Why would that upset you? Most people are upset when doctors crush a dead fetus' skull during an abortion, to make their job go a little faster and easier. Asking, or suggesting that a doctor would consider on their own, a gentler, less destructive use of forceps, to keep a dead fetus in tact for the sake of medical research and science, isn't illegal or immoral.


actually it is illegal, doctors arent supposed to change the way they carry out abortions to get tissue




(A) in the case of tissue obtained pursuant to an induced abortion--
(i) the consent of the woman for the abortion was obtained prior to requesting or obtaining consent for a donation of the tissue for use in such research;
(ii) no alteration of the timing, method, or procedures used to terminate the pregnancy was made solely for the purposes of obtaining the tissue; and
(iii) the abortion was performed in accordance with applicable State law;


www.hhs.gov...

im not "upset" im disgusted



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 07:03 PM
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a reply to: Lostinthedarkness

Let's start with this:

Quote where I said "science is always right."

I'll wait.
edit on 19Tue, 11 Aug 2015 19:21:56 -050015p072015866 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 07:13 PM
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a reply to: kellyjay

So no proof of selling fetuses for profit then?

Fine.

Your link is to a Bill referred to committee.

Where's the info on the investigation again?



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 07:18 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: kellyjay

So no proof of selling fetuses for profit then?

Fine.

Your link is to a Bill referred to committee.

Where's the info on the investigation again?


what part of " i support an investigation" is it you dont understand? do you like going around in circles?

yes i said i posted a link to the bill...which i did.

im confused to what your point is, can you perhaps get to it?



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 07:31 PM
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a reply to: kellyjay


You stated that you would rather Planned Parenthood process donated tissue samples instead of these samples being sold for profit.

I asked for proof, and then you tried to hide behind an investigation.

I asked for proof of the investigation, and you linked to the bill to defund PP.

The "point" is that you keep stating things that aren't factual, and when asked for evidence you try to pivot to something else.

So let's try questions that can be answered simply with a yes or no:

Do you have evidence that Planned Parenthood is selling fetal tissue for profit?

Do you have evidence of a planned investigation by Congress?

Start there.
edit on 19Tue, 11 Aug 2015 19:32:32 -050015p072015866 by Gryphon66 because: Pivot not picot



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 07:37 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

"Do you have evidence that Planned Parenthood is selling fetal tissue for profit?"

The videos released suggest that may be happening and because of that i support an investigation.

"Do you have evidence of a planned investigation by Congress?"

yes...

thehill.com...

www.google.co.uk... tonpost.com%2F2015%2F07%2F15%2Fplanned-parenthood-investigation_n_7803530.html&ei=xJTKVb3LEcq_aI_zlcgF&usg=AFQjCNEPlHDodEqwN1EFELnZlQTOefCxUA&sig2=xBI BQq6tYNgcQ5mX9stszQ

www.google.co.uk... .com%2F2015%2F07%2F16%2Fus%2Fhouse-republicans-to-investigate-planned-parenthood-over-fetal-tissue.html&ei=xJTKVb3LEcq_aI_zlcgF&usg=AFQjCNG8vLICXQoE8U P2o-t_L5d1Rl_D7g&sig2=_B5kStgYFnS-ksPok7kbeg



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 08:11 PM
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a reply to: kellyjay

Are they still using forceps? If so what has changed, other than making an effort to be a little careful, keep a skull in tact for the purpose of the betterment of mankind? Are you upset that they're not carelessly crushing as many skulls?



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 09:01 PM
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a reply to: kellyjay

No, the videos suggest nothing of the kind.

The videos suggest that the group that made them are zealots with an agenda and a willingness to commit fraud who have been claiming the same things for a decade and in investigation after investigation that is found NOT to be true.

Two of your links don't work; but you will find that the Republicans in Congress dispensed with the early July hints of investigation and moved straight to defunding. EDIT: Well, when the defunding effort failed, they went back to the investigation apparently. I wonder how many of these we'll have to go through before they get the answer they want instead of the truth. Think they'll beat Benghazi at 14?

But, both the defunding bill and the "investigation" are based on videos we know are frauds.

Think about that for a minute outside the partisan BS.

edit on 21Tue, 11 Aug 2015 21:22:50 -050015p092015866 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 09:30 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

A few random thoughts...

You never answered the poster who asked, so, when is it murder? Thought I'd bump and remind you. What's the cut off, viability? Viable? It's murder. Unviable, it's not.?

Geez, this is too easy. Vocabulary time again.

Do you know what viability means? Yes, it's actually a word used in scientific circles. I would know, I don't need sources. A viable fertilized egg is a "potential human". It's viable. (Maybe you should look this up)

Intentional abortion is the premeditated killing of a fellow human being. A viable/potential human being is in existence from the moment of conception. Because it is murder, abortion is wrong...ALL the time.

I don't care about PP. Their days are numbered. I don't care about a woman's right to choose. She already has that, it's the hideous law we have on the books (for now). I don't care about a stupid decision a woman can make in a "back alley", depriving a wanton couple of an adoptive baby. That's ALL beside the point. You continually muddy the water with all the above, in an effort to sidestep the logical, consistent, majority consensus that....

Abortion is murder. Legally sanctioned premeditated murder. I speak for all those babies. Nobody else will.

This is like talking to a wall of incomprehension. At least a wall doesn't respond with statements that completely belie its' ignorance. It just LOOKS stupid.

Do you know what a "fact" is? In relation to scientific nomenclature? (you might wanna look that up also)

Did you know electricity is only a theory? It's not a fact. Stick your finger in a socket and tell me if you think electricity is a fact or a theory. Then, spend a few hours, or more, maybe sleep on it, then get back to me and tell me if you have the faintest clue as to why I point this out to your sophomoric view of reality.

Do you work for PP? Why do you care? If abortion is so "right"? Why the frothing? Why the futile effort to justify this abomination?
edit on 11-8-2015 by Ignatian because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2015 @ 09:44 PM
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When is abortion murder? In general (as answered previously but I don't mind repeating) when the fetus could be "born" and survive.

But specifically, I'm not sure that abortion should ever be considered murder, per se. It's a medical procedure that is purely the woman's choice up until a legally established point, at which it becomes a joint matter of woman, her physicians and the State.

Again, I'm personally against abortion. There's virtually no reasonable situation in which I'd be involved in any part of the decision-making process, but, even so, if I were, I would do everything in my power to prevent it, because I consider abortion to be used only in a case of last resort.

It is utterly, in every way possible, scientifically, medically, morally and ethically A LIE to refer to the fertilized egg/embryo/fetus as a human being. That's simply not true. That's a belief based on the need to control women's bodies. It is very clear and obvious (particularly from the language you just used in your post Ignatian - thank you for that honesty at least) that its not about life it's about CONTROL.

You don't "care" about a woman but you "care" about something you consider a baby up until and only up until it is born. You care about controlling the definition of what human person-hood is. And you're wrong, and you and your fellow zealots will fail.

I'm personally against abortion, but I am absolutely 100%+ pro CHOICE. If we must invade a personal decision making process with government, the only reasonable, rational equitable stance is to recognize that the fetus is a part of the woman's body and it is her choice ONLY because she is the ONLY one that will have to live with it for every day of the rest of her life.

I will do everything I can to help support Planned Parenthood and similar healthcare providers in education and provision of birth control PRECISELY because of that reason ... I do not want anyone to have to make that Choice.


edit on 21Tue, 11 Aug 2015 21:48:28 -050015p092015866 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



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