animals knew the water was coming!

Originally posted by Bearmaw7
riley
I disagree strongly with your statement-
the laws of the land are, in fact, a reflection of the peoples' view of God.
The ugly and Godless society in China today is the result of Buddism.

So the fact that the population of China is apx 1.2 billion is completely irrelevant to you? What about the fact thats it's communist? India isn't communist.. it's a democracy and hasn't adopted a one child policy.. why is that?! If they are a buddhist godless country wouldn't they want a reason to force wopmen to have abortions because they are just 'evil' ? Seems you just WANT there to be a direct connection between abotion and buddhism so you have a reason to look down on other religions by demonising them.. you do realise that Jesus disaproved of biggotry don't you?

As Europe has declined from Christianity it too has become more brutish (Hitler? Any one?)

Yeah.. funny you should mention Hitler. The Vatican turned a blind eye to the extermination camps.

The reason the United States is blessed at all is because of the strong church presence here. Jesus is still Lord in this nation..I do not say that it will always be so.

I'm sure Iraqis think Bush is Satan right now. The whole world is TERRIFIED of america. It is one of the most violent places on earth.. how many murders just in New York per year? ..and it seems to be lead by one of the most violent 'men'. ] THIS is the AMERICAN way: All hail Uncle Sam.. and the right for everyone in America to bear arms. Yes.. such a peaceful place..
Of course I don't judge all americans by their leaders and some cowboy lunatics- but pretending it's somehow a moral country is laughable.

I see the what is coming..However.
The fight is on, and
"We, who KNOW our God, will do great exploits" This quote is obscure, so I'll just tell you; it is found in the book of Daniel.

I don't find it obscure at all.. exploitation is the main trait of organised religion.
www.geocities.com...

Fact for today;
"A relatively small amount of sediment is now on the ocean floor, indicating only a few thousand years of accumulation..."

Source?
Oh ..and you do realise that sediment eventually turns into rock over thousands of years don't you? And there is water erosion as well.

Go figure, may be the earth is only about 6,000 years old. As the Bible would seem to indicate. Not much time to evolve ...

An 560 million year old invertebrate fossil:
news.bbc.co.uk..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> news.bbc.co.uk...
And a fossilised fish from 530 million years ago:
news.bbc.co.uk..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> news.bbc.co.uk...
Oh and this:

Schopf�s findings were controversial, since his purported fossils were more than 1 billion years older than the oldest unquestioned bacterial fossils. If the structures were verified as fossil microorganisms, scientists could firmly establish that, by around 3.5 billion years ago, life had already established a firm foothold on Earth.

www.space.com...
There are HUNDREDS of other example I could provide.. but I'm not sure the effort of searching for them myself will be appreciated or taken seriously because THE BIBLE SAYS THATS WRONG so won't bother. You can have a look at these but no doubt you scramble for anything to dismiss them so you can stay in denial.

Originally posted by Seapeople
2) Give praise to Mel Gibson.

He does not have a nice arse anymore.. he served his life's purpose long ago with decent camera angles.. now he just gives me the creeps.

Did you know that the Bible tells us Noah and his three sons worked on the ark for 100 years? I just bet they had time to gather many euclayptus leaves if need be...

:shk:

[edit on 3-1-2005 by riley]

Riley,

I used to respond to people like this in the same way you do. With facts and science. Unfortuneatly, they trust in websites like answersingenesis.com more than their math books.

You see, people like bear tell us to take the bible literally. Take it literally right up until it starts contradicting itself. Then, we were supposed to read into it more.... They choose a certain religion. Pick and choose what parts of the bible they like best and change accordingly. They denounce anything that is rational.

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by Seapeople
2) Give praise to Mel Gibson.

He does not have a nice arse anymore.. he served his life's purpose long ago with decent camera angles.. now he just gives me the creeps.

Did you know that the Bible tells us Noah and his three sons worked on the ark for 100 years? I just bet they had time to gather many euclayptus leaves if need be...

:shk:

[edit on 3-1-2005 by riley]

Are you a male or female riley... I have had this long standing assumption that you were male until the nice arse comment....

Originally posted by Seapeople
Are you a male or female riley... I have had this long standing assumption that you were male until the nice arse comment....

hmm.. why is that? I might be a gay guy!
Of course that would mean Bear [and maybe Ninki] would condemn me to a lake of eternal fire.. would it be safe to come out if I was?]

[edit on 3-1-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by Seapeople
Riley,

I used to respond to people like this in the same way you do. With facts and science. Unfortuneatly, they trust in websites like answersingenesis.com more than their math books.

I know it's futile. I can't help it.. the sheer ignorance comfounds and irritates me.. it's like trying to ask young children to eat vegetables.. or trying to convince somone that if they wear a superman outfit and jump off a building that they won't be able to fly.
I must say though that this absolute refusal to accept facts over.. [or just with] faith is facsinating.. I think it might be an OCD thing [obsessive complulsive]. If we could figure out why people take religion to the extreme and adress it.. the world could become a much safer place.
g'night.
[aplgs 4 double post]

[edit on 3-1-2005 by riley]

Seapeople- it is funny to me that you and riley,talk of needing nothing other than yourselves, and your beautiful earth! i think god created the most beautiful universe(one spoken sentance)! but there are many things in this world that i do not believe are beautiful..here is my short list.
gulf war, iraq war, P.O.Ws, torture, abandonment, starvation, poverty, the holocost, world war1, world war 2, tsunami, death, murder, sickness, fear, terror, hate, rape, dahmer, stahlin, hitler, lonelyness, sadam , trial, loss, seperation, rejection, fighting, addiction, suicide, genocide, extinction, pollution, 9/11, huricaine, tornado, flood, fire, riots, earthquakes, beheadings, vietnam war, hipocrocy, bigotry, segrigation, slavery, etc........this earth is subject to frustration, it is following the laws, it is winding down! (law#2) left to ourselves and our frustrated earth we will never make it! its a ship with a hole in the side, we are sinking slowly, but dont believe for a second that we are not sinking! the answer is not to look inside of yourself, the answer is found when you give up looking inside yourself, and give up your self, to the one who made you!

SEAPEOPLE- i hate double posts but i just read through this thread again to re- absorb what was being said and i missed some things, like the names you guys have used for christians!
Ignorant-obsessive-compulsive-irrational-a plague to society? i hardly think those things should be said by a well rounded adult!!
Next issue- the vatican,catholics,religion and the pope, i am not catholic, i do not believe we should have a pope, i hate religion, and i think a great many dis-services have been done by the catholic church throughout history!
Next issue-you keep speaking of love and hell, so i will tell you what i believe the bible teaches about hell...hell is a place where people who have spent there entire life trying to get away from god, can crawl by there own choice, when they see the face of christ, and tremble! a place they can go to be eternally seperate from him, and seperation from god leaves you in darkness, because without him there is no light, without him there is no life, without him it is torment!!! now for the definition of love, love is giving your only son to die on a cross naked to cover for the sins of a people who hate you! love is dieing to yourself!! you learn that fast with children, with marrage, with real love there is dicipline, a mother or father who loves her child will train them up in the way they should go...no matter what you do god can, will and does love you!! your perception of this changes nothing of the fact!

Originally posted by ninki
SEAPEOPLE- i hate double posts but i just read through this thread again to re- absorb what was being said and i missed some things, like the names you guys have used for christians!
Ignorant-obsessive-compulsive-irrational-a plague to society?

Exuse me but it was I who mentioned OCD.. you are the one who took it out of context so you can claim POOR PERSECUTED CHRISTIAN. I was refferring to people who.. I don't know.. FLY PLANES INTO BUILDINGS and shoot abortion doctors.. burn witches.. hang black people [you know the KKK called themselves Christian don't you?.. and MOST christains agreeed with what they were doing at the time]. These peple ARE a plague in our society. You may take the bible literally.. so do they.. they just take it to the next level. Bear thinks these people deserved to die. I don't know bear personally .. he might be a nice guy.. but if god kills people.. and people AGREE he's right in doing so.. what happens when they start doing HIS work?!

i hate religion, and i think a great many dis-services have been done by the catholic church throughout history!

I'm glad you are mature enough to realise the distruction relgion causes.

Next issue-you keep speaking of love and hell, so i will tell you what i believe the bible teaches about hell...hell is a place where people who have spent there entire life trying to get away from god,

1. We don't believe in a 'hell' after life.
2. To me.. hell is just life gone bad.. so I try make the world a better place instaed. Of course thats irrelevent if the bible says so.. if it says it's okay to kill people.. then it's deemed 'good' and everyone who doesn't burns in hell.

Noah is being disucussed [again] here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Perhaps you could add you scientific expertise to the discussion.

Ninki,

I know that I have made comments about cristians that have been harsh many times. There is a lot you don't know about me though. I used to be extrememly defensive of christianity. I am even now a very political person. I am a very conservative person. I do feel that everyone has their right to believe what they want to believe. I used to confuse that right with defending religion. In reality, it means I have just as much right to say these things as you do to say yours.

Now I have gotten off of the topic. My biggest problem with this subject is an overall unwillingness to research, and unwillingness to think on ones own when it comes to religion. Ninki, I know weve been mad at each other before, but that really isnt my intent. I really just wish that you would give ideas from the other side more credibility. If you think that I do not look into what you say to me, you are wrong. I would be willing to bet that you do not check on things I say as much though.

I will make an offer to you. Over a year ago I wrote a long letter explaining exactly what I believe, and exactly why. It would give you a good idea of who I am and EXACTLY why. U2U me if you want it, if not, thats ok too.

Now, on the subject of hell. The bible tells us that the difference between an angel and a soul is that angels can only do the will of God, while souls have free will. Do you see a problem with that?

You know, I know a girl who goes to bible study groups on a regular basis. I used to go to them myself believe it or not. In one of her worksheets it stated...with scripture quotes as suport, that no man can see the face of God and live. She was talking to me about this. Now, I know that the bible gives at least three examples of people seeing the face of God. Two of which use the term "Face to Face". These people who saw God face to face did not die. The pastor though, at the study, said that...and everyone believed it without question. That the pastor was right. Now, this pastor graduated from a bible college, and is a locally famous TV evangelist. He knows the bible very well. Why would he say that? Why would he then lie? I wasn't at that bible study so I do not know for sure. I can tell you that he lied intentionally to support a point he was trying to make. Thats what he does for a living. He excludes important things from the bible because it just doesn't add all up the way it should.

Seriously....let me know if you want that letter.

SEAPEOPLE- i am interested in your letter i just dont understand yet about the u2u thing here, (too new for me yet)! any whoo, i also used to believe as you do, and that is why i hate religion!!! fake pastors, phony schemes, leagalism and hipocrocy, set up to make money off of peoples ignorance! these are just some of the things that sent me running away from the churches!...what i have found though is that Jesus felt the same! when he entered the temple, he got mad!! he healed on the sabbath, hung out with low lives , befriended prostitutes, and tax collectors..he touched the sick, and loved the lost..he did not hang out with the rich, the self righteous, the upper groups of (POPE TYPE PEOPLE)! infact he said do not call anyone on earth father! i love christ for who he is! he is real, he loves yucky nasty me! he is the creator god, so beautiful in all of his ways, i believe when you look at jesus you have seen the face of god, and i dont know what that pastors problem was as i was not with you!! i wish i was though so i could have stood up and made a scene..lol !!! Seapeople i do research what you guys say on here, i just research both sides and i find the biblical-creation science theory to be stronger than the secular-evolution science theory!..but i do look into what you guys say, it helps me build up my knowledge of god! like look at this for example ..you talked about angels not having free will so i looked into it..and yes, they do have free will, they had the free will to reject god and fall to the earth, they had the free will to choose to pro-create with human women, they had the free will to do all these things! it says in the bible that when satan fell he took 1/3rd of the angels with him, all of them fell to earth by choice!....ya know who cares that people have given god a bad name through religion, you are a free person with a mind look into jesus further for yourself, dont look into the people who use religion to gain power over you!..people will always disapoint and let you down look to the one who will not!!!

Originally posted by Bearmaw7
PS Cheezer
about the fish..you believe in evolution..you figure it out..
Think about "specialization"
A hint ...as the waters receded after the flood and areas of water slowly, then, became more salty - they were now land locked- read how the salt sea; or Dead Sea if you will. was formed.
(remember before the flood there was one large land mass surrounded by water)
I state here that before the flood all fish were fresh water fish, after the flood ,as salt was increased in certain bodies of water the fish evolved..and began to tolerate the salt.
Eventually they were only able to live in this kind of environment.
God bless and keep you Cheezy
Bearmaw7

ok ill give u that, it cant be concluded that the shrub was of that age. ill give you that one.(eventhough i strongly believe the shrub was much older than 6001 years)
but one that i wont give you is this one.

"I state here that before the flood all fish were fresh water fish, after the flood ,as salt was increased in certain bodies of water the fish evolved..and began to tolerate the salt."
Im not sure if you know much about evolution. ill just give you the benifet of the doubt. If a animal was to evolve from a salt water tolerant fish to a untolerant salt water fish. it would take MUCH and i mean much longer than 6,000 years. I'm talking about 10,000's if not 100,000's maybe even millions of years to have this huge leap of evolution
As darwim observed on the island of galapagos, some birds could acturally have notice beak size differences over a few generations.
But something from a salt water tolerance fish to an untolerance salt water fish would take a hell of a lot of time. Just ask anyone that knows abit about evolution.

would do you have to this to this? How do we have fish that arent tolerant to salt water?

Originally posted by Bearmaw7
little Aussie bear.

little, yes
Aussie, yes
bear, no

just abit of trivia.

cheeser- everyone knows its not a bear! but thank you for enlightining us! Darwin was a pretty smart guy huh? well i tend to think he was greatly confused! block headed, and was into inbreading! dont sound smart to me! here are other statements made by darwin, i believe, Natural selection may explain the survival of the fittest, but it cannot explain the arrival of the fittest!!!! DARWIN QUOTES
"Though no evidence worth anything has yet, been advanced in favour of a living being, being developed from inorganic matter, I cannot avoid believing the possibility that this will be proved some day"

"My theology is a simple muddle; I cannot look at the universe as the result of blind chance, yet I can see no evidence of beneficient design"

"yet hoping (only hoping without any proof) that it will some day be proved, believed that the first living beings were born spontaneously, from inanimate matter!"

he then went on to marry his cousin and took a swim in his own gene pool! i dont believe what he claimed!

Ninki, I sent you a U2U.

Anyway, you say you dont believe what Darwin claimed right? Here is what darwin claimed.

His theory states that an animal that is better suited to survive in a certain situation due to certain genetic traits that it posseses, will be more likely to survive that situation than the same animal that does not posess those certain genetic traits. It will then be more likely to pass forth its genes to the next generation. Therefore the next generation will be more likely to share those traits.

We discussed this issue before. You said YES to EVERY SINGLE QUESTION I asked you pertaining to this. In other words, you agreed to what I said above. And what I said above is Darwins theory.

If you would like, we can go back and quote you saying yes to all of the genetic questions I asked you. So tell me again that you do not agree with Darwins theory.

This is the edited part:

I gave this some more thought and figured I will go the whole way with this one. There are a lot of things that we Humans know for sure about genetics. You can deny it all you want, but if it wasn't for genetic theories spawed by Mr. Darwin himself, there would be no DNA testing, no paternal testing, ECT. Now, there are also a lot of things we as humans do not know for sure. For instance, what is the difference between the atoms in a rock, and the atoms in a living creature. They are the same atoms and molecules in each...but somehow one is alive while the other is not. We do know truly know how the universe began. We only know that it is very likely that it did have a beginning. At least as far as we can observe.

Those two simple points I just made would give so much credibility to the arguments of those who believe as you do. One of the biggest problems I have though with people like you is that you cite 8 million arguments....but you never cite these two. You sometimes elude to them, but you don't know why you do. It is as if the logical is completely thrown out the window sometimes.

Now, these arguments do not outlaw things such as evolution. We know evolution occurs. Humans have only had the ability to study genetics on the scale as we do now for very few years. Honestly, less than 12 years of advanced genetic research over what is more than likely an overall timespan of humans in the tens of thousands of years. We can genetically prove evolution right now. We however, can only say that it is VERY LIKELY that evolution can spin off seperate species. Genetically, we can see the path of genes from one species to the next, but we have not been able to oberve the actual change which takes thousands of years, if all these theories are to be correct. Refer back to the "12 years of genetic research" statement. I would bet my life that in several hundred years from today, evolution across species will be proven, if not much earlier.

Again, none of this rules out God. Rather, it rules out all the nonsense in the Old Testament. Who is to say that God didn't create life? There is no-one who can argue against that point with facts. I think you would find your God much more realistically possible to everyone if you had a grasp on these points. As a matter of fact, citing the Bible's words has a negative effect on people and their willingness to believe in a God. The bible is full of horrifying mistakes that you can not avoid. They are even more horrifying when it comes to christians. For instance, Ninki, tell me what Jesus' last words were as he died on the cross. What does the Bible say? Give me one answer.

You see, science gives you at least a 50/50 chance at God, if you want to look at it objectively that is. Science is your best evidence. Science. Isn't it amazing. You ought to read some of Albert Einstiens quotes, or read some of Stephen Hawkings books. The massive amount of thought and hard work these people have put forth to this subject, puts us all to shame. These people all make great points to adress the issue of a God. It is a shame that christians criticise people who put forth so much effort in life. I wish, Ninki, that you could see what I see when I look into the night sky on a clear night. There is nothing more beautiful, and nothing more exciting. But you can't.

[edit on 1/5/2005 by Seapeople]

Seapeople-#1 every evening suns twinkle at us across the vast expanse of our galaxy, a massive ensemble of hundreds of millions of stars all gravitationally interacting, a beautiful dance, each star making its own sound, sort of like an amazing orchestra, i bet they dance for a reason!!
I cannot see exactly what you see in the night sky seapeople because i am not you, but i truly do appreciate the wonderfully beautiful universe we live in!!!
#2- jesus last words on the cross "It is finished, Father; into your hands I commit my spirit." and "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
# 3- the reason jesus said father why have you forsaken me? i will bet is the statement that bothers you! jesus said this because he had become the scapegoat, he took on our sin and felt true death for us! the seperation of himself and god, for a moment. he tasted true death so that we do not have to!
# 4-back to your statement of christians not bringing up obvious arguments against evolution, here are some obvious points that i love! only because i love probability studys!
THE POSSIBILITY OF A SINGLE CELL COMING INTO EXISTANCE BY CHANCE is 10 TO THE 262 POWER THIS IS THE PROBABILITY OF A MICROPLASM HOMINISH39 (the smallest known cell) coming into exhistiance by chance!!
The probability of a single human cell coming into existance by chance are 10 to the 119,000 power a number so high we cannot even comprehend it!
SIMPLE PROBABILITYS
right kind of galaxy for life- 1 in a thousand
right kind of star- 1 in a billon in acceptable galaxies
right kind of solar system- 1 in a billion
right kind of plannet for life-1 in 10 billion in an acceptable solar system
right kind of planet inside of the universe- 1 in 10 quadrillion quadrillion
likely number of actual planets- 10 billion trillion
the probability of a life friendly planet existing anywhere in in our universe-1 in one thousand quintillion,quintillion,quintillion,quintillion,quintillion,quintillion,quintillion
the probability of a chaotic bang creating a stable universe hospitable to life- 1 in a billion trillion

Mathematicians consider any event with a probability of less than
1 CHANCE IN 10 to the 50th power as having a zero probability
(it is impossible)
IT IS BELIEVED THAT THERE IS NO CHANCE FOR IT HAPPENING!!

PRETTY COOL STUFF !! THAT IS JUST A SMALL AMOUNT OF THE PROBABILITYS THAT I HAVE LOOKED UP!! SO NOT BRINGING UP THE OBVIOUS? WELL NOW I HAVE AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO.

Well, the statement, father...why have you forsaken actually does bother me. Jesus is God, and God is Jesus. That goes if you beilieve in the trinity, or if you believe in a unitarian God. It bothers me because he actually asked himself a question. He preached his whole life according to the bible that he was the son of God. He knew that one day he would hang on the cross. Why ask any question?

Anyway...that wasn't the point. I asked you to give me one answer. There are three statements that you gave me with one thing in common. They are all supposed to be the last words of Jesus. Jesus, could not have said all three of them. So, that leaves two possibilities. First, only one of them is actually right. Second, none of them are actually right. That is the problem. This is personal oppinion, but, there are certain things that occur in peoples lives that stand out more than others. These things will be remembered more accurately and be reported more accurately as well. One of these things is a persons last words. If we cannot trust the writers of the Bible to accurately tell us something this significant...how much can we trust?

Seapeople- he is god, he was man, he is spirit, part of him was seperated from the father, that is where the pain came in .. true death is seperation of god and you! that is what he did for us, he tasted true death so that we would not have to, so lets break it down the father part was above, the man was nailed to a cross, his soul (spirit) was on a journey, he was the scapegoat chosen by the father to take the sin for us!
Next issue- as jesus died he said many things!

Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.� (Luke 23:34)

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?�
(Mark 15:34)

�I am thirsty.�
(John 19:28)

It is finished.�
(John 19:30)

�Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.�
(Luke 23:46)

Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.�
(Luke 23:43)

�Woman, here is your son.�
(John 19:26)

Jesus had a long and brutal death, he had time to say his last goodbyes, ask for a drink, explaine his torment, talk to his father, forgive a theif, and forgive us for our sin! he said all of these things!

I know it says that he said all those things in one account or another. But, it referred to three individual and very different statements as his last words. Tell me Ninki. WHat truly were his last words. What was his last sentence.

This isn't the only instance of problems within the bible. I will totally disregard the old testament, and only refer to the new testament. How many apostles were there? What were their names? Refer to all four gospels, and come up with one list that holds true through all four.

These are significant. In your last response you totaly scated over the consequences. You said...he said all of these things. Was there or was there not 3 completely different statements indicated as Jesus' last words? Would it or would it not be correct to say that an important mans last words would be something to take great note of?

Now, as far as the forsaken part. You missed my point there as well. I understand that Jesus was to be a human incarnation of god..seperate but yet the same. I do not understand how Jesus knew what he did and acted the way he did at the same time. In particular, Jesus predicted his own death. It is written in the bible that he knew it would occur. He knew that his trusted freind would deny him 3 times. He knew all of what was to come. His death...he knew. After all, he was God. Why then...ask any question at all. I am not concerned about his pain in this. I am concerned at the fact that he asked God a question. He knew everything that was to come...and he knew why. He knew that he was to free us and give us a path to heaven by conquering death. He stated it. He knew why God had forsaken him. Well, more accurately, he knew why he had forsaken himself. Why then...ask a question? That makes absolutely no sense.

Accidental duplicate post...sorry everyone.

[edit on 1/5/2005 by Seapeople]