5th Planned Parenthood Video Released

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Gryphon66

I resigned myself to the fact that you will never change my mind, I will never change yours..

In the face of horror, I can only laugh.

Funny, I don't laugh in the face of horror, I still cringe and shed real tears,

... as opposed to cartoon ones.

Aren't we snide tonight.


“And if I laugh at any mortal thing, 'Tis that I may not weep”
-Lord Byron

originally posted by: Sunwolf
a reply to: Gryphon66



It is killing a baby, trying to justify it using legalese does not lessen the murder.





I want a lamborghini.

Is it still "killing a baby" when the mother was raped, or had incest committed on her, or is going to die herself?

Answer that or face the fact of your own cowardice.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Gryphon66

I resigned myself to the fact that you will never change my mind, I will never change yours..

In the face of horror, I can only laugh.

Funny, I don't laugh in the face of horror, I still cringe and shed real tears,

... as opposed to cartoon ones.

Aren't we snide tonight.


“And if I laugh at any mortal thing, 'Tis that I may not weep”
-Lord Byron

You would know.

We look before and after, And pine for what is not;
Our sincerest laughter With some pain is fraught;
Our sweetest songs are those that tell of saddest thought.

-Percy Bysshe Shelley

a reply to: ~Lucidity

With respect I thought the discussion was the legality of the PP procedures...


& admittedly, I'm on the fence pending further answers.


Yes, the videos are propagated by those with an agenda...
But the words were not being forced...

We can argue context all day.

But that's fruitless as well.



To be honest I'm about ready to hang up my gloves in these threads.


I just thought the above was an interesting tidbit.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

It's occurred to me more than once in this matter, Charlie, that all of us are not the matter of the experiment ...

... we're the results.

That may very well be the case at this stage of the game.

Though I'm wondering that maybe just the divide has occurred, the conquering is being planned...



& that's usually where I lose interest in my own hypothesis.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Sunwolf
a reply to: Gryphon66



It is killing a baby, trying to justify it using legalese does not lessen the murder.





I want a lamborghini.

Is it still "killing a baby" when the mother was raped, or had incest committed on her, or is going to die herself?

Answer that or face the fact of your own cowardice.

The answer would be yes.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: ~Lucidity

With respect I thought the discussion was the legality of the PP procedures...


& admittedly, I'm on the fence pending further answers.


Yes, the videos are propagated by those with an agenda...
But the words were not being forced...

We can argue context all day.

But that's fruitless as well.



To be honest I'm about ready to hand up my gloves in these threads.


I just thought the above was an interesting tidbit.

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
Abortion has been a fact of human life since there has been human life. No women who does not wish to be pregnant, no matter what her reasons, is going to stay pregnant. So that isn't the discussion here. The discussion is do we take away choices and safety [and] leave women to hang out there on their own for abortions and for other care or do we try to impose our own personal values on them.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

To be honest I'm about ready to hand up my gloves in these threads. 

I agree with you Charlie.

originally posted by: thesaneone

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Sunwolf
a reply to: Gryphon66



It is killing a baby, trying to justify it using legalese does not lessen the murder.





I want a lamborghini.

Is it still "killing a baby" when the mother was raped, or had incest committed on her, or is going to die herself?

Answer that or face the fact of your own cowardice.

The answer would be yes.

... and that's acceptable to you?

Is that kind of like "collateral damages" in war?

a reply to: ~Lucidity

Ahhh in that case, no.

Resoundingly.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

It's occurred to me more than once in this matter, Charlie, that all of us are not the matter of the experiment ...

... we're the results.

That may very well be the case at this stage of the game.

Though I'm wondering that maybe just the divide has occurred, the conquering is being planned...



& that's usually where I lose interest in my own hypothesis.

I understand. I do not include you among the monsters, as you do not take the matter lightly on either side.

That may not matter, but I did want you to know.

PS: I'm not looking forward to the conquering part either.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Not saying it is or isn't but it's still killing.

What's your definition of killing?

a reply to: butcherguy

It's a hard topic to wade through fella.

Emotions ride very high for a number of reasons on both sides...


It's also why I rarely respond to someone unless the convo is started by another party...
I'm not trying to be confrontational in these threads.


We are all meant to be a community, this topic, with the emotions thrown in, can tear a community apart.

Sorry for the diatribe.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: grandmakdw

A fetus at 24 weeks has basically a 50% chance of survival outside the womb.

The same as every fertilized egg; a 50% chance of being aborted naturally.

At 40 weeks, if the mother's life is in danger, every one of you has said you approve of abortion.
In the case of incest or rape, many of you have said you approve of abortion.

Abortion is abortion. If it is murder, it is always murder.

Except that many in favor of Choice do not see termination before viability as Murder. Right or wrong.

When we consider the necessity of the Choice, we are not "killing a baby."

But those who stand against Choice, at least many of you, are ...

Do you see the difference?

Do you see the irony in calling yourselves "pro" life?

Murder is acceptable ... SOMETIMES.

You chill me to the bone.

Wow, talk about a rigid set of values,
you say if I find abortion to be murder at 40 weeks
then I must find it to be murder at say 8 weeks.
That is a rigidity normally only seen in the highly religious minded,
or those who have a fanatical view of morality, whatever
the moral stance is, huh, interesting.

Anyway, after 24 weeks, I think it is always murder.
There is always the option of a C-section or induced labor
and letting the baby have a chance to survive
and live if the mother's life is in danger.
How do you think they get the baby out if
the mother's life is in danger,
duh, C-section or induced labor,
except in an abortion they kill the fetus first.
Once a baby can be viable outside the womb
and on it's own, I see it as murder to abort it.

My personal stand is not as rigid and unyielding as yours.
Before 12 weeks, yes the fetus is a blob of tissue
and while I think it is not a great idea to have an abortion,
before 12 weeks, there are many understandable reasons
and I do not see it as the same as murder.
Of course, you can call me inconsistent,
but my thinking is not as rigid as yours.

Before the 16th week,
I agree it should be legal,
regardless of my personal feelings.

Around the 16 week mark a fetus
is a fully formed human and at that point
I think it is quite wrong to abort,
but there are extenuating circumstances up until the 24th week.
I personally don't like the idea of a 16-24 week abortion
and think it should be limited to extenuating circumstances
and the woman should have a 3D ultrasound
before having the abortion so she is fully aware of her choice.
Again, it is legal, it is not murder,
and I am not for changing the law up to the 24th week,
even if I don't like it.
I suppose I am more broad minded than you on this one,
because I am not rigid that at all weeks it is murder; or
at all weeks it is not murder.

After the 24th week,
when there is a decent chance of survival outside the womb.
Then in my opinion, it is murder,
because a woman's life can be saved
and the baby allowed to live,
one does not negate the other.
But again I am not as rigid a thinker
and feel that each stage of pregnancy is quite different,
and once a fetus has a good chance of living outside the womb,
it is a person and killing it is murder.

It is murder even if the mother's life is in danger
after the 24th week
because the procedure is the same
as far as the woman's body is concerned,
the only difference is to the baby's body.

But I imagine you think dismembering alive
a 40 week old fetus is not murder, in order to remove it,
after fully dilating the cervix
and giving drugs to induce labor
in the same way it is done in a live birth, well,
I guess in your world view, that is perfectly acceptable.
Because you seemed to imply that a 8 week fetus
is the same as a 40 week fetus,
or you think that I have to think that way;
but I am not such a rigid thinker,
and see a great deal of moral difference
between 8 week old fetal tissue and a 40 week full term fetus.

So again I take it that you approve of dismembering alive
and without anesthesia a 40 week old fetus in the womb
and inducing labor in the mother, exactly as would have
happened if the baby were allowed to be born alive,
as long as the mother wants to dispose of the baby
rather than let it live.

Would you also approve of induced labor and
planned parenthood dismembering the 40 week
old fetus outside the womb with it's heart
beating and it breathing,
to obtain better specimens for research?
I would imagine you would find this acceptable
if the mother wanted to abort the 40 week old fetus.
Because in your view it is always ok to abort and
never murder.


You would have to believe that
if you are consistent with what you say I must be consistent believing,
that all stages are the same and either abortion is always murder ,
or in your view abortion is never murder.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not as rigid and rule bound
in my thinking as you.

originally posted by: grandmakdw

Wow, talk about a rigid set of values,
you say if I find abortion to be murder at 40 weeks
then I must find it to be murder at say 8 weeks.
That is a rigidity normally only seen in the highly religious minded,
or those who have a fanatical view of morality, whatever
the moral stance is, huh, interesting.

I said nothing of the sort. Quote rather than paraphrasing to meet your needs.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Anyway, after 24 weeks, I think it is always murder.

Every law regarding abortion in the country makes it illegal after viability. Have you actually read Roe v. Wade?

My personal stand is not as rigid and unyielding as yours.

Except that you're not referring to anything I've said; you're only playing with a scarecrow that you made.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Around the 16 week mark a fetus
is a fully formed human and at that point
I think it is quite wrong to abort,
but there are extenuating circumstances up until the 24th week.

It is the fact that it is "murder" in some cases and "extenuating circumstances" in others is the horrifying part.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
But I imagine you think dismembering alive
a 40 week old fetus is not murder, in order to remove it,

You're a liar. And you have disgusting fantasies about killing babies.

Real ones.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: grandmakdw

Wow, talk about a rigid set of values,
you say if I find abortion to be murder at 40 weeks
then I must find it to be murder at say 8 weeks.
That is a rigidity normally only seen in the highly religious minded,
or those who have a fanatical view of morality, whatever
the moral stance is, huh, interesting.

I said nothing of the sort. Quote rather than paraphrasing to meet your needs.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Anyway, after 24 weeks, I think it is always murder.

Every law regarding abortion in the country makes it illegal after viability. Have you actually read Roe v. Wade?

My personal stand is not as rigid and unyielding as yours.

Except that you're not referring to anything I've said; you're only playing with a scarecrow that you made.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Around the 16 week mark a fetus
is a fully formed human and at that point
I think it is quite wrong to abort,
but there are extenuating circumstances up until the 24th week.

It is the fact that it is "murder" in some cases and "extenuating circumstances" in others is the horrifying part.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
But I imagine you think dismembering alive
a 40 week old fetus is not murder, in order to remove it,

You're a liar. And you have disgusting fantasies about killing babies.

Real ones.

Tisk tisk, keep our temper darlin.

When you go off the deep end with insults, well, just get a grip.

Do your homework before you say what I described is illegal,
the born alive scenario at 40 weeks is illegal, but the dismemberment
at 40 weeks with no anesthesia inside the womb is perfectly legal in 7 states.


There are 7 state that allow abortion, unrestricted up until the 40th week.
Alaska, Colorado, D.C., New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon and Vermont,
and Obama as an Illinois Senator put forth a bill to try and get
late term abortions, up to week 40, to be made legal in Illinois.

There are 6 states that allow abortion between the 24th and 25th week,
when it is quite possible that an "intact" fetus,
as referred to in the video,
has it's heart beating and it's lungs functioning after removal,
and it could be a viable baby if allowed to live.
Nevada, New York, S. Carolina, Mass, Virginia, Iowa

What I did was accurately describe what happens in those abortions.

If you find it sick,
well then maybe you should rethink your stand on abortion,
because that is exactly what happens.

originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: Gryphon66

Not saying it is or isn't but it's still killing.

What's your definition of killing?

Execution, murder-by-cop, "collateral damage" ...

Somehow, I'm not surprised that you won't answer a simple question, but still want to evangelize on your non-answer.

a reply to: grandmakdw

There could be a video (I am not saying there is, this is hypothetical)
of a crying blob of fetal tissue of 40 weeks
(full term) being dissected alive
and you would say
"It's the woman's body and the woman's choice."

Absolutely not. Do any of the videos released show that happening?

You have no emotions to move when it comes to abortion.

You assume too much. I'm anti-abortion. I think it's a travesty that some people make that choice, and I think it's a travesty that some women are put in the position where an abortion is necessary and the best thing to do.

I also recognize that this issue was decided by the Supreme Court many years ago. People have the freedom to make that choice and the only way for me to have the freedoms I wish to have is to let other people be free as well. I may not like what they do with it, but it's their freedom nonetheless.

I wish more people were educated on the facts of abortion, but this is not the way to do it. Using slickly edited videos in a disingenuous manner, or even outright lies, to bring attention to abortion only makes the anti-abortion crowd look like fools and liars.

Actually, PP does a decent job at educating people on other options, but we don't want to talk about that, do we?

So please keep your judgement to yourself. I don't need you telling me who I am and what kind if person I am. I really wish the anti-abortion crowd would find a better way to reach people than through deception and lies.

a reply to: Gryphon66

a bit of the hair of the dog that bit me.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Yes, anyone who answers your spiel is angry; what a lazy and repetitive strategy you use!

You must spend a lot of time with all kinds of anger you can't do anything about.

You really need to find out what an insult is. There's a difference between that and telling the truth.

Anything you don't like is not an insult. Stating that you are a liar is not an insult.

If you don't like it don't lie so ... obviously.

I notice you didn't quote me on anything. Quoting is a lot less convenient than just claiming that someone else said something to fit your argument.

Let me be very clear about what I find "sick"

I find people that want to control other people's bodies at such an intimate level "sick."

I find people that can justify murder when it suits them to be "sick."

I find people who make silly attempts to portray lies as truth as "sick."

I find people who would use photographs of fetuses and particularly aborted fetuses for their own agendas to be "sick."

You are again lying about Alaska Link and Colorado Link and I would assume the rest of your list.

I am also finding the nature of your posting personae "sick" ... but that is a personal matter that I will deal with appropriately.