Britain and Immigration - Ignorance is Bliss

a reply to: SecretFace

Here's the deal, and the problem with pretty much everything you have said.

No one sensible is denying the reality that we live on an island.
No one sensible is claiming that we can welcome everyone here with open arms.
No one I have seen believes what you claim they believe, that we should just do away with all borders and let everyone come here.

The fact that you claim this is what people think makes your intentions clear - scaremongering and xenophobia.

What most people understand are the following realities:

1. You are not "better" or "more Human" than any of those people coming here to the UK.
2. You are the product of thousands of years of Human migration.
3. These people are indeed looking for a better life, and you would be doing exactly the same if you were born where they were.
4. The Internet has allowed these people to see how lucky we are in our free and open societies, and they justifiably want that too.
5. Our governments have done nothing but abuse these nations for centuries, we have been profiteering from their dictatorships, from their wars, from their poverty and their suffering.
6. Nothing will change until we change the source of this problem, and the source of this problem is the lack of opportunity, the lack of employment, the risk of death and the massive poverty these people have to endure in their own countries.

The only way we can change what is happening is if we make a genuine and concerted effort to change the countries they are fleeing.

The notion that these people are risking their lives just for free housing in our country is bs of the worst kind, and it needs to stop.

The dehumanization efforts of those describing these people as "less Human" or "worthless" is sickening to watch.

If having a Humanitarian attitude (rather than an evil, fascist mentality) makes me "a bleeding heart liberal" then so f-ing be it! I'm proud to be one of those who can understand this on a deeper level than the Neanderthal Daily Heil reader who sees colour and nationality as an excuse to abuse other Humans.

originally posted by: Korg TrinityWe should be able to say that only people of a certain quality are allowed in.

You mean - qualities like these:

The UK is full of heavy drinkers with bad eating habits who are ignorant, intolerant and too nationalistic – so it’s just as well that we are also very polite. It might sound like a stereotypical list of national traits, but these are the views of more than 5,000 young adults from five different countries who were asked to give their opinion on modern Britain by the British Council.

I wonder where they got their stupid ideas. I mean, given your well-balanced commentaries here, we can all see that they are wrong..

originally posted by: DAVID64
We in the U.S. are facing much the same problem. Illegals flooding the country and govt doing little to enforce the law or stop them. The corporations want them for cheap labor, the politicians want them for the votes. What We The People want seems to be completely ignored.

Yeah, and you get back to me when you're complaining that the cost of food in your country has quadrupled because your farmers have had to pay American workers (people who don't actually want to do that job anyway) triple what they have to pay an immigrant worker.

You claim the American public doesn't want immigration, but in reality that American public is just entirely ignorant to what those immigrants bring to your country.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
a reply to: SecretFace

Here's the deal, and the problem with pretty much everything you have said.

Allow me to do the same for you...

What most people understand are the following realities:

1. You are not "better" or "more Human" than any of those people coming here to the UK.

Not better or more human but more British given that they are a British citizen and as such have more RIGHT to be in the country than any EU citizen.... In addition They should not be made to change or alter their lifestyle to suite immigrants for fear of reprisal.... I.E take down the St. Georges cross because it offends the immigrants etc...

2. You are the product of thousands of years of Human migration.

Just because the Vikings and the Romans invaded thousands of years ago and sowed their seeds, does not mean that we should allow our heritage and our culture to be eroded away by allowing free reign on immigration to the Europeans.

3. These people are indeed looking for a better life, and you would be doing exactly the same if you were born where they were.

But he WAS born here and they have contributed towards what we have. That means he has a right to defend what he has from being taken from him or eroded away or diluted by other people who have contributed NOTHING to the system.

4. The Internet has allowed these people to see how lucky we are in our free and open societies, and they justifiably want that too.

Then they should build their own countries in our image instead of trying to take it away from us. would you justify theft because that person didn't have what the other person has?? These people need to stand up to the corrupt governments in their own countries and sack their religious leaders and start to build a country for themselves!

5. Our governments have done nothing but abuse these nations for centuries, we have been profiteering from their dictatorships, from their wars, from their poverty and their suffering.

So because of the Empire we should all suffer now? is that it? Sorry dude but the doors swing both ways... we may have conquered two thirds of the world, but we also propagated modern society, the concept of democracy, justice, liberty, financial systems, global trade, Military defense. All were British inventions and all were spread to the four corners of the world by the empire.

6. Nothing will change until we change the source of this problem, and the source of this problem is the lack of opportunity, the lack of employment, the risk of death and the massive poverty these people have to endure in their own countries.

No nothing will change until we stand up and say NO to the EU tyrannical oppression led by Germany's self interests. It's coming in less than a year when we get our say so within the EU referendum.

The only way we can change what is happening is if we make a genuine and concerted effort to change the countries they are fleeing.

so you say we need to interfere more in the affairs of these nations? funny I thought you said this was the cause of the problem earlier....

Give a man a fish and he will feed his family for a day... give a man a fishing rod and some training and he will feed his family for life....

We have been trying to spread democracy but the wars if you haven't been watching are all about the Religious power base who want to control the people. This is why there is no peace and the people have no rest in those countries... Look what happens when the people stand up like they did in Egypt... they can overthrow and have revolution.... That is the only way these people will claw themselves out of poverty...

My opinion is we should leave them to their own devices... let them do the work... because if we keep winning the wars for them they will never learn to stand on their own two feet.

Korg.

a reply to: Korg Trinity

You do not meet my criteria for having a a civil debate, you are not up to my standards.therefor i "deport" you from this discussion.

BTw if you go back far enough in time, everybody is an immigrant...

originally posted by: XyZeR
a reply to: Korg Trinity

You do not meet my criteria for having a a civil debate, you are not up to my standards.therefor i "deport" you from this discussion.

BTw if you go back far enough in time, everybody is an immigrant...

How very obnoxious of you.

Before there was civilization and modern countries it mattered not if my father father father x 10 came from Norway or Rome... the fact remains that if you were born here and worked here all your life regardless of what your mitochondrial DNA says about where you herald from... you have more right to the country than anyone else within the EU.

If your rights or your quality of life is diminished by immigration then that is WRONG and should NOT be allowed.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: Korg TrinityWe should be able to say that only people of a certain quality are allowed in.

You mean - qualities like these:

The UK is full of heavy drinkers with bad eating habits who are ignorant, intolerant and too nationalistic – so it’s just as well that we are also very polite. It might sound like a stereotypical list of national traits, but these are the views of more than 5,000 young adults from five different countries who were asked to give their opinion on modern Britain by the British Council.

I wonder where they got their stupid ideas. I mean, given your well-balanced commentaries here, we can all see that they are wrong..

Ignorant, biased, opinionated comments based upon no facts what so ever... sounds very much like a basis for the EU to form a global law....

I'm talking about qualities like these..

1. Education back ground - did they finish school and college / any further education?
2. What skills can they provide when they are here (professional skills such as Doctor / Nurse / It / Management / Technical / Engineering) etc..
3. The ability to provide their own accommodation
4. To already have a job before migrating
5. The ability to pay their own way including paying for their taxes and receiving no state benefit until paid enough into the system to receive back out.

Those are the qualities I'm talking about and should be applied across the board regardless of where the person is coming from.

originally posted by: Korg Trinity

I'm talking about qualities like these..

1. Education back ground - did they finish school and college / any further education?

Do you propose that the UK expells all UK residents that did not complete secondary education? There are millions of Brits that did not finish college.

2. What skills can they provide when they are here (professional skills such as Doctor / Nurse / It / Management / Technical / Engineering) etc..

Again: do you propose that the UK expells all UK residents that do not qualify as doctors, nurses, IT specialists.. ??

3. The ability to provide their own accommodation

There are millions of Brits that can't - so they get help. Do you propose to expell them too?

4. To already have a job before migrating

.. and so we'll expell everybody without a job from the UK??

5. The ability to pay their own way including paying for their taxes and receiving no state benefit until paid enough into the system to receive back out.

But you DO think that folks that were born in the UK should receive benefit, though they never paid enough into the system?

We're done, methinks.

a reply to: Korg Trinity

How very obnoxious of you.

Oh you don't like that kind of thinking? It was your logic/way of "thinking" applied to your own posts in this thread, not so cool when you are on the receiving end of your own logic ,isn't it? FYI It's exactly what you have been doing throughout this thread.

So, Pot : meet kettle?

a reply to: ForteanOrg

WE in the UK dont don't give a flying # on the insane liberal European view on immigration.

WE in the UK do not want uncontrolled and illegal immigration!

WE in the UK do not want to turn our country into a 3rd world cesspit like were these immigrants come from.

WE in the UK do not care care what our European neighbors think.

You can rant and rave to your little bleeding hearts content and it wont matter Our minds are made up.
Your just wasting time and going round in circles here.

Come the referendum Im voteing out. Europe has gone insane.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

Do you propose that the UK expells all UK residents that did not complete secondary education? There are millions of Brits that did not finish college.

If you are born here you are a British citizen and you have the right to our education systems, and the right to mess up their life anyway they see fit. There are plenty of people who mess up their lives and there are plenty of scroungers that is absolutely a problem that I agree needs to be sorted out....

So because there is a social issue with a small segment of the UK population... are you saying we should allow that undesirable segment to grow by allowing immigrants to come in and follow the same path??

No thank you!

Besides if you want to come here, and you want to partake of our culture then you should prove you have something to offer... Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country.... an Americanism but it's as true and relevant to Britain as it was to America when John F Kennedy said it.

Again: do you propose that the UK expels all UK residents that do not qualify as doctors, nurses, IT specialists.. ??

Again, you fail to recognize that if you are born here or have been naturalized and are British you have every right to be in the country..... this right should NOT automatically extend to EU citizens or any Citizen of any country.

There are millions of Brits that can't - so they get help. Do you propose to expell them too?

So you are saying we should give free accommodation to all homeless EU citizens??

Again you fail to realize that state Benefits should be earned not given freely. As I have already stated there is a small proportion of the population that expect to live off the state and trust me they are vilified and looked on with distaste here.... however if you are born here and worked here and find yourself in trouble and need help, then you have paid into the system and have a right to the help on offer.

.. and so we'll expell everybody without a job from the UK??

We already expel non EU citizens from the UK if they do not have a job and cannot support themselves.... why should EU citizens be any different?

Again if you were born here or are naturalized then you have every right to be in the country and to the state benefit of Job seekers allowance....

But you DO think that folks that were born in the UK should receive benefit, though they never paid enough into the system?

I've already said this... there is a proportion of people who sit on state benefits and want to live off the state... this was made easy by Labour who wanted to create a nanny state. It is the way of Scoialism.

I'm all for cutting benefits completely to people if they are unable to find work within 6 months. Regardless of what people say to you if you are unable to find a job in 6 months then you don't want to work. It may not be the job that you wanted to do... but while you look for that job go and work at the local Factory or supermarket etc.... There is no excuse for not being in work after 6 months!

We're done, methinks.

what I read into that is... you have said your bit but now will ignore any answer that comes back.... weak very very weak!

originally posted by: XyZeR
a reply to: Korg Trinity

How very obnoxious of you.

Oh you don't like that kind of thinking? It was your logic/way of "thinking" applied to your own posts in this thread, not so cool when you are on the receiving end of your own logic ,isn't it? FYI It's exactly what you have been doing throughout this thread.

So, Pot : meet kettle?

Not the same thing at all.... and you're showing yourself up...

Please refer to THIS POST

It is not based upon opinions it is based upon facts and what would be good for the country....

and I re-iterate.... If as a British Citizen your rights or your quality of life is diminished by immigration then that is WRONG and should NOT be allowed PERIOD!

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: ForteanOrg

WE in the UK dont don't give a flying # on the insane liberal European view on immigration.

WE in the UK do not want uncontrolled and illegal immigration!

WE in the UK do not want to turn our country into a 3rd world cesspit like were these immigrants come from.

WE in the UK do not care care what our European neighbors think.

You can rant and rave to your little bleeding hearts content and it wont matter Our minds are made up.
You just wasting time and going round in circles here.

Come the referendum Im voteing out. Europe has gone insane.

a reply to: Korg Trinity

Honesty I dont Know why they refuse to get it ?

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Korg Trinity

Honesty I dont Know why they refuse to get it ?

Two reason I think.

1. Europeans have bought into the whole United Socialist states of Europe and wrongly believed the UK was part of it

and

2. They don't like the fact that Britain is overtaking them economically on it's own and want to to do anything to prevent us from overtaking Germany... which is on the cards by 2020.

Let's face it the Europeans have never liked the British, they can't understand how we are so strong. They fail to realize it is because of the quality of our society.

The Irony there is this is precisely the reason they want to come here.... The ideal solution for the Europeans would be to displace the UK populace by repopulate the UK with other Europeans.... The haven't figured out that we are not about to let that happen.

a reply to: Korg Trinity

Well the more they bitch and whine the More likely we will leave .
And I say good!

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Korg Trinity

Well the more they bitch and whine the More likely we will leave .
And I say good!

Hahaha!
That is exactly how I feel. The more Brits who are being lectured by bleeding hearts of Europe about how we should run our nation then the more will want to tell them to stick it in the referendum.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Korg Trinity

Well the more they bitch and whine the More likely we will leave .
And I say good!

Nothing they could say that would make it o.k. for us to be a part of the EU.

The moment we said no to the Euro was the moment we said no to the EU... next years referendum will be the last nail in that particular coffin.

a reply to: Korg Trinity

Hmm, maybe, but if there is an overwhelming vote "Yes EU" in Scotland then that could spark a referendum for them to leave the UK, then our weakest link in our EU border will be Scotland.
What happens then? A new Hadrians wall/electric fence?

Lots of if's, but not out of the question.
Interesting times ahead in the next year or so, that's for sure.

a reply to: Korg Trinity

Mind you, if you read London's Evening Standard, they're so pro Europe it's nauseating.

Edit: spelling