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Dear Atheists: I will prove to you that there is a Creator to the universe. Come debate me.

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posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 04:48 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm

I know I know
.
Stubbornness is a trait I have which annoys me also lol




posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 05:00 PM
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originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33


And yet sometimes archaeology surprises the naysayers and supports the bible accounts, things like the "Cyrus Cylinder".
But I guess all those types of things are considered fakes, because they don't support your world view.


Interesting how science is accurate when it supports your views but is inaccurate when it doesn't. Please don't speak on my behalf. I never said anything was fake. I will say that people are attributing things to scripture that aren't actually reasonable though. The Hebrew texts were clearly written by human hands during historical periods in the Levant. There is no question that there are some actual true historical events being described in some instances.

There are many other events that are borrowed from earlier civilizations and others borrowed during their time in Babylon that were later added to their own scriptural text. Things like a world wide flood and all the people dispersing from the Middle East to populate the other lands of the world and then invent their own religions and languages however are not accurate. Both the original Hebrew and later the Romanized version of Christianity get more wrong than they do right though.
People were in fact already living in every corner of the world, languages were already well developed and various religions or at the very least, religious practices, can be demonstrated going all the way back to the paleolithic. There is undeniable evidence that several regional religious practices were influential on the development of what would become Judaism from Egypt to Mesopotamia and Babylon.
Except thathe shape of the earth appears to already have been known in Isaiah's time. Ancient astronomers could determine that the earth was round by observing its circular shadow move across the moon during lunar eclipses. There is some suggestion that the Egyptians knew of the earth's spherical size and shape around 2550 B.C.E. ( more than a millennia before Moses). The Greek philosopher Pythagoras, who was born in 532 B.C.E., defended the spherical theory on the basis of observations he had made of the shape of the sun and moon (Uotila 1984). If this information was known by educated Greeks and Egyptians during biblical times, its use by Isaiah is nothing special.

Isaiah 11:12 also refers to the "four quarters of the earth", but we do not take that as indicative of the earth's shape do we?

One last thought on the Book of Isaiah, the oldest written copy of Isaiah is at the absolute oldest, from 335 BPE and at the youngest, 100 BPE. Regardless, the oldest possible date of the manuscript still dates to over 200 years after the Jews were freed from exile in Babylon. It is not actual proof of a prophecy



I have done plenty of research over the years finding many secular historical supportive second party confirmations as to the authenticity of the bible. This short video sums it up nicely.


Excellent. Then you should be all too aware of the many prophecies by Isaiah that never came true right? Let's look at a few...
In Isaiah 7:1-7 God tells the king of Judah that he shall not be harmed by his enemies. BUT it did come to pass. His enemies did harm him. as 2 Chronicles 28:1-8 tells us...

Wherefore the LORD his God delivered him into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him, and carried away a great multitude of them captives, and brought them to Damascus. And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter. For Pekah the son of Remaliah slew in Judah an hundred and twenty thousand in one day, which were all valiant men; because they had forsaken the LORD God of their fathers


Isaiah 19:1-8 says the Nile will dry up and the sea will drain. Never happened.

Isaiah 19:18 Isaiah: Egyptians will speak the language of Canaan. Never happened.

The bible says that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre Never happened.

Ezekiel 29:8-15 states: Egypt will be a barren wasteland. God even gives a check list...
1.Egypt and everything from the tower of Syene to Ethiopia will be desolate and waste
2.God will own the Nile
3.No humans will walk through Egypt
4.No animals will walk through Egypt
5.Nobody will live in Egypt for 40 years
6.Egyptians will leave Egypt and be scattered among other nations
7.After 40 years of scattering, Egypt will be repopulated by the scattered Egyptians
8.Egypt will be a weak kingdom, and will never control "the nations"

This passage is one of the most erroneous in the Bible. Since Ezekiel was penned, Egypt has never been a desolate waste, there has never been a time when people have not walked through it, there has never been a period of forty years when Egypt was uninhabited after the civilization started there, and it has never been surrounded by other desolate countries.

Let's take a look at the Failure to smite Jebus

In Joshua 3:10 the eponymous Jew is quoted as saying the following:

Hereby ye shall know that the living God is among you, and that he will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Hivites, and the Perizzites, and the Girga#es, and the Amorites, and the Jebusites.

This is a repetition of a promise had from God's own lips in earlier books. However, mere moments later we learn that:

As for the Jebusites the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem unto this day.

The Books of Samuel relate that Jerusalem eventually falls to David, however there is no mention of the Jebusites being driven out. The Book of Kings implies that the surviving Jebusites were made serfs

1 Kings 9:20: And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel,
1 Kings 9:21: Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bondservice unto this day.

The above verses from 1 Kings also contradict Deuteronomy 20:17 (ie. the Jebusites were meant to be slaughtered entirely):

But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.


We also have Exodus 23:25-31 which says that Israel will extend its borders from the Red Sea to the Euphrates. Wanna take a guess how that worked out? I'll give you a hint... Never happened.

Ezekiel 28:24-26 predicts that Israel will live in peace with its neighbors. How has that worked out for Israel historically up until right this very moment?

These are but a few in an extremely long list. If you like, I can continue with more from the old Testament or I could switch to the NT and show all the errors made there if you prefer. Let me know.


Great post peter.


I love how its been ignored thus far.


edit on 8-7-2015 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 05:05 PM
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originally posted by: Phantom423
"Either the universe had a creator or the universe had always existed. Which is more logical?"

Those are two mutually exclusive questions. They are completely unrelated and one is not dependent on the other. That's logic.



Aka "affirming a disjunct" fallacy. The creationist's staple.

Edit: to be more accurate, the common creationist form is "denying a conjunct":

Evolution or creationism.

Not evolution, therefore creationism.
edit on 7-8-2015 by GetHyped because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 06:33 PM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer

originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33


And yet sometimes archaeology surprises the naysayers and supports the bible accounts, things like the "Cyrus Cylinder".
But I guess all those types of things are considered fakes, because they don't support your world view.


Interesting how science is accurate when it supports your views but is inaccurate when it doesn't. Please don't speak on my behalf. I never said anything was fake. I will say that people are attributing things to scripture that aren't actually reasonable though. The Hebrew texts were clearly written by human hands during historical periods in the Levant. There is no question that there are some actual true historical events being described in some instances.

There are many other events that are borrowed from earlier civilizations and others borrowed during their time in Babylon that were later added to their own scriptural text. Things like a world wide flood and all the people dispersing from the Middle East to populate the other lands of the world and then invent their own religions and languages however are not accurate. Both the original Hebrew and later the Romanized version of Christianity get more wrong than they do right though.
People were in fact already living in every corner of the world, languages were already well developed and various religions or at the very least, religious practices, can be demonstrated going all the way back to the paleolithic. There is undeniable evidence that several regional religious practices were influential on the development of what would become Judaism from Egypt to Mesopotamia and Babylon.
Except thathe shape of the earth appears to already have been known in Isaiah's time. Ancient astronomers could determine that the earth was round by observing its circular shadow move across the moon during lunar eclipses. There is some suggestion that the Egyptians knew of the earth's spherical size and shape around 2550 B.C.E. ( more than a millennia before Moses). The Greek philosopher Pythagoras, who was born in 532 B.C.E., defended the spherical theory on the basis of observations he had made of the shape of the sun and moon (Uotila 1984). If this information was known by educated Greeks and Egyptians during biblical times, its use by Isaiah is nothing special.

Isaiah 11:12 also refers to the "four quarters of the earth", but we do not take that as indicative of the earth's shape do we?

One last thought on the Book of Isaiah, the oldest written copy of Isaiah is at the absolute oldest, from 335 BPE and at the youngest, 100 BPE. Regardless, the oldest possible date of the manuscript still dates to over 200 years after the Jews were freed from exile in Babylon. It is not actual proof of a prophecy



I have done plenty of research over the years finding many secular historical supportive second party confirmations as to the authenticity of the bible. This short video sums it up nicely.


Excellent. Then you should be all too aware of the many prophecies by Isaiah that never came true right? Let's look at a few...
In Isaiah 7:1-7 God tells the king of Judah that he shall not be harmed by his enemies. BUT it did come to pass. His enemies did harm him. as 2 Chronicles 28:1-8 tells us...

Wherefore the LORD his God delivered him into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him, and carried away a great multitude of them captives, and brought them to Damascus. And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter. For Pekah the son of Remaliah slew in Judah an hundred and twenty thousand in one day, which were all valiant men; because they had forsaken the LORD God of their fathers


Isaiah 19:1-8 says the Nile will dry up and the sea will drain. Never happened.

Isaiah 19:18 Isaiah: Egyptians will speak the language of Canaan. Never happened.

The bible says that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre Never happened.

Ezekiel 29:8-15 states: Egypt will be a barren wasteland. God even gives a check list...
1.Egypt and everything from the tower of Syene to Ethiopia will be desolate and waste
2.God will own the Nile
3.No humans will walk through Egypt
4.No animals will walk through Egypt
5.Nobody will live in Egypt for 40 years
6.Egyptians will leave Egypt and be scattered among other nations
7.After 40 years of scattering, Egypt will be repopulated by the scattered Egyptians
8.Egypt will be a weak kingdom, and will never control "the nations"

This passage is one of the most erroneous in the Bible. Since Ezekiel was penned, Egypt has never been a desolate waste, there has never been a time when people have not walked through it, there has never been a period of forty years when Egypt was uninhabited after the civilization started there, and it has never been surrounded by other desolate countries.

Let's take a look at the Failure to smite Jebus

In Joshua 3:10 the eponymous Jew is quoted as saying the following:

Hereby ye shall know that the living God is among you, and that he will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Hivites, and the Perizzites, and the Girga#es, and the Amorites, and the Jebusites.

This is a repetition of a promise had from God's own lips in earlier books. However, mere moments later we learn that:

As for the Jebusites the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem unto this day.

The Books of Samuel relate that Jerusalem eventually falls to David, however there is no mention of the Jebusites being driven out. The Book of Kings implies that the surviving Jebusites were made serfs

1 Kings 9:20: And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel,
1 Kings 9:21: Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bondservice unto this day.

The above verses from 1 Kings also contradict Deuteronomy 20:17 (ie. the Jebusites were meant to

Great post peter.


I love how its been ignored thus far.



I read it
(The distractions of a 7 year old probably interfered with my focus and commenting)

Does anyone know if there's a book that presents a secular version of the bible?

I've read the bible when I believed and again after becoming atheist.

It's weird how reading it with the euphoria of a believer gives it revelation, but when reading it as an atheist --- it's like a poorly written mess.
edit on 7-8-2015 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 06:41 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 06:48 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 07:00 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Oh look, atheists talking about God and the Bible. They have churches for that you know.


Did an atheist start this thread?

Many, probably most atheists came "through" the church. Many, probably most, studied and searched for answers --- because they needed answers that made sense.

That's the reason why so many atheists are knowledgable of the Bible.

Oh, and here's the thread title: Dear Atheists: I will prove to you that there is a Creator to the universe. Come debate me.
edit on 7-8-2015 by Annee because: (no reason given)


(post by 5StarOracle removed for a manners violation)

posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 07:15 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 07:20 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 07:21 PM
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a reply to: mOjOm

So now you guys determine what's on topic too?
I thought all you did was dictate what's truth or not because you can copy and paste favourable links with no merit...
My bad...



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 07:22 PM
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originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: mOjOm

So now you guys determine what's on topic too?
I thought all you did was dictate what's truth or not because you can copy and paste favourable links with no merit...
My bad...


Proving there exists a God is no small task.



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 07:26 PM
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a reply to: Annee

I was not only talking to you, nor was it my intention to offend you personally just this thread is not really on topic...

I started out in this thread offering what I consider to be evidence of creation...

I was poked and prodded by non believers into bringing God into it just so they could bash God one of them even claimed he believed in God at one point...

I'm still under age but there are a lot of kids on here who are not underage...

Anyway...



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 07:27 PM
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originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: mOjOm

So now you guys determine what's on topic too?
I thought all you did was dictate what's truth or not because you can copy and paste favourable links with no merit...
My bad...


It's not us who determine the topic. The creator of the thread did that when they created it. Here is the title once again, read it carefully.

Dear Atheists: I will prove to you that there is a Creator to the universe. Come debate me.

See there??? It said they will prove there is a Creator to the Universe. So that is what we are waiting for. Proof of a Creator.



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 07:28 PM
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originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: mOjOm

So now you guys determine what's on topic too?
I thought all you did was dictate what's truth or not because you can copy and paste favourable links with no merit...
My bad...


Proving there exists a God is no small task.


Fact is: you can't prove or disprove God or Creator.

All anyone has is belief. Science is limited to known knowledge ---- which can change at every knew discovery. And is also limited to our own existence. For all I know some one/thing could flip the master switch and POOF!



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 07:32 PM
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originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Annee

I was not only talking to you, nor was it my intention to offend you personally just this thread is not really on topic...

I started out in this thread offering what I consider to be evidence of creation...

I was poked and prodded by non believers into bringing God into it just so they could bash God one of them even claimed he believed in God at one point...

I'm still under age but there are a lot of kids on here who are not underage...

Anyway...


Don't give up, nobody knows about anything, we are all just here to bounce off ideas. The truth awaits us.



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 07:34 PM
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a reply to: InTheLight

I don't believe I need to proove God exists...



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 07:34 PM
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Even if some omnipotent being materialized and showed himself ---- that wouldn't mean he's the Creator.

He'd then have to prove himself.



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 07:35 PM
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originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: InTheLight

I don't believe I need to proove God exists...





Absolutely, you do not.



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 07:38 PM
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originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: InTheLight

I don't believe I need to proove God exists...





No you don't - but you did say you would.



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