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Dear Atheists: I will prove to you that there is a Creator to the universe. Come debate me.

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posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 03:34 AM
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a reply to: Mugly





the god i now believe exists because of your thread is certainly no god i will ever follow.
seems like a mean, spiteful, jerk to me



Well apparently he created us in his image and i guess we get all his traits too.....hmmmm...i think i am with you on this...we humans are some nasty nasty pieces of work.....




posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 03:40 AM
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originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Mugly

Thing is I wonder why the religious are trying so hard to justify their club.
Here is me thinking they had faith.
If they did they wouldn't need to argue for their religion would they?.


I am sure psych's can have a field day in this area!!

My take is that they are (often) genuine in their belief, and really cannot understand why someone else doesn't believe it either. It is "so obvious" to them, so how come the rest of us can't see it??

The possibility that they are wrong cannot be entertained, so the alternative can only be that us atheists (or other non-believers) are being deliberately contrary.

Take this guy for example - his only alternatives are:

1/ the universe has always existed; and
2/ god created the universe...

apparently he cannot fathom the possibility that the universe was created by something other than his god.

Go figure.



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 03:42 AM
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originally posted by: mOjOm


Because when you are told to believe that something is perfect and without blemish .


hahahahahahah

here is a big ass blemish

en.wikipedia.org...


The Crusades were military campaigns sanctioned by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages. Pope Urban II proclaimed the First Crusade in 1091 with the stated goal of restoring Christian access to the Holy Land leading to an intermittent 200-year struggle




Hundreds of thousands Roman Catholic Christians became crusaders by taking a public vow and receiving plenary indulgences from the church.[3][4] Crusaders were from all over Western Europe and from all classes under feudal rather than unified command structure. The politics were complicated and led to intra-faith competition and inter-faith alliances between combatants of different faiths against their coreligionists


something like 5 million people dead/killed/slaughtered/tortured




posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 04:14 AM
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a reply to: Mugly

They can rationalize such events any number of ways. If nothing else they can just say that was Man and not God's Will so he's not to blame.

By blemish I'm talking about incompatible or unresolvable ideas within their belief system or texts. Rules which counter each other or logical problems within their laws that can't be worked out. Of course they have ways of getting around those too because of God Magic, but it still causes them to pause for a minute and question. For some that is an opportunity to free themselves from the trap they find themselves caught in. For others it just frightens them into holding onto their beliefs even more because at least they are familiar.

Belief systems are found outside religion too however religion is probably the grand master of them all in what it has accomplished and how refined it has become. I consider it to be similar to a parasite but on an intellectual or mental level. Also perhaps a virus as well on that same level. It's like a living, physical virus/parasite that alters it's hosts actions and propagates and replicates itself for it's own purposes but does so on a non-physical level of existence. It lives in the world of memes rather than genes but does basically the same thing.



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 09:27 AM
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@ Mugly

Your attitude is the driving force of rationalized atheism.

Here is the process:

1) People don't like religion, they see what it has done for millenniums and it's been generally a negative force for humanity as a whole.
2)People just disagree with the way God has done things, from judgement of cultures and people to allowing certain things during ancient times, to sacrifices.
3) Timeline to fix the problems has been way too long.
4) He has allowed way too much evil, see the atrocities of the 20th century.
5) A search begins to discredit his word the Bible, and there is plenty to find.
6) Science seems to disprove the Bible at every turn
7) Agnosticism sets in.
8) Finally with all this negativity and confirmation bias the inevitable happens... atheism.

Thus the thought process ends with there is no creator, it is actually a logical conclusion given what is seen on the surface. People need to dig way deeper into the "WHY?" but they don't ever bother too, it's just easier to not be accountable after being ping ponged around mentally and emotionally by those points.


edit on 7-8-2015 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 09:31 AM
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a reply to: boymonkey74

are you just insanely bored right now? because you arent getting anywhere with that member, now or later.




posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 09:35 AM
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originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
@ Mugly

Your attitude is the driving force of rationalized atheism.

Here is the process:

1) People don't like religion, they see what it has done for millenniums and it's been generally a negative force for humanity as a whole.
2)People just disagree with the way God has done things, from judgement of cultures and people to allowing certain things during ancient times, to sacrifices.
3) Timeline to fix the problems has been way too long.
4) He has allowed way too much evil, see the atrocities of the 20th century.
5) A search begins to discredit his word the Bible, and there is plenty to find.
6) Science seems to disprove the Bible at every turn
7) Agnosticism sets in.
8) Finally with all this negativity and confirmation bias the inevitable happens... atheism.

Thus the thought process ends with there is no creator, it is actually a logical conclusion given what is seen on the surface. People need to dig way deeper into the "WHY?" but they don't ever bother too, it's just easier to not be accountable after being ping ponged around mentally and emotionally by those points.



There is no answer to the question "why?". So it is impossible to dig deeper into answering it without inventing your own narrative. Your logical summary of where atheism comes from is spot on logic, but it isn't just the surface. It's the whole thing. That's all we know.

You talk about accountability, but accountability to what? Here's a "why" question for you. Why are humans accountable to anything in the first place? If we assume evolution is true (and we have no reason not to thanks to all the evidence supporting it), humans are just animals like everything else. Where does the connection come from that JUST because humans can reason intelligently, that we have to be accountable for our actions?

It certainly IS a good idea to help society function well to be accountable for your actions, but it is an assumption on humans' part that there is some divine force holding judgment over us so that we keep society functioning while we are alive. Such an assumption suggests that society is NECESSARY for human survival, but that is also an assumption. And one that is likely wrong. Humans got alone fine for thousands of years without any discernible society.



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 09:41 AM
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a reply to: Blue_Jay33


Thus the thought process ends with there is no creator, it is actually a logical conclusion given what is seen on the surface. People need to dig way deeper into the "WHY?" but they don't ever bother too, it's just easier to not be accountable after being ping ponged around mentally and emotionally by those points.


as you say, if we examined motivation, our thoughts on the matter might change. but my question is, why is there a why. that line of inquiry, the insistence that there is a desire being pursued by some cosmic entity, seems to reflect the anthropomorphic qualities that theologists insist upon ascribing to the cosmos. and i have yet to see a rationale for it, for the notion that the universe at large is indicative of a thought process. and that is what you and others have failed to explain to satisfaction: "the universe has a personality". no, no it does not. the only personality any of us can point out exists solely on this damp little rock in nowhere space.

perhaps if you were god, this is how you would spend your time. generating isolated biospheres and playing super nanny to them. but you are NOT a god, not in that sense. so i have trouble comprehending how you could claim to comprehend the emotional capacity, intellectual interests, or sentimental concerns of such a being. and the fact is: you can ONLY speculate, and to a limited degree. like the rest of us.

anything else is arrogance.



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 10:45 AM
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Digging deeper gives a rebuttal to the points mentioned, in talking to people face to face on these very points sometimes they accept them and other times they don't. One fellow I had a deep and long discussion with said it doesn't matter either way because even if God existed, I disagree with everything he has done and is doing. Once you hit that level what is the point of even asking why? ....and some atheists are there already.



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 10:49 AM
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originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
Digging deeper gives a rebuttal to the points mentioned, in talking to people face to face on these very points sometimes they accept them and other times they don't. One fellow I had a deep and long discussion with said it doesn't matter either way because even if God existed, I disagree with everything he has done and is doing. Once you hit that level what is the point of even asking why? ....and some atheists are there already.


"digging deeper gives a rebuttal" is not a rebuttal.



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 11:40 AM
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a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Here's the thing. Nobody cares what other people believe. It doesn't matter what people believe. What matters is what they know. That's what really matters and makes a difference. Not what you think or believe but what you know.

Now, when it comes to the things we know, we can show why it is that we know it. There is some way to show what we know and if we can't show it, then odds are we don't know it. We might think it, or believe it, but we don't know it.

So when it comes to this conversation, what can you show???



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 12:10 PM
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originally posted by: 5StarOracle
All order is representative of creation by the confines of its constructs...
not the randomness or chaos you would see from evolution or a diff means of creation...


Prove it. Assumptions are no good when you are claiming proof. Randomness is a huge part of the universe. If it were created, I'd expect life all over the place, not limited to .00001% of the known universe. Why are planets and asteroids colliding all over the place in a created universe? The randomness is definitely there and it definitely defines much of what we know of reality. You mentioned genetics before, but if DNA was created, then why are there so many problems with it? Why do humans experience hundreds of mutations per person per generation? Why errors in copying? Why solar radiation can change genes? Random mutation and the environment define the diversity of all life on earth. Again, not a single thing we have studied in science has shown dependence on outside influence. Everything functions normally on its own, naturally. If you have evidence of the contrary I'd love to see it.


I do not feel I am in agreement with you on scientific law...


That's too bad, because I get my information from scientific websites and research papers. The laws of the universe are our measurements of constants. This isn't something I just made up.


Govern

To hold in check, control...

You are rather silly...


You just made up your own definition, which is hilarious because you told us to look it up and I pasted it right from dictionary website. The laws do not hold anything in check or control anything. They are our measurements of parameters that explain how things function in the universe. We do not know the causes of most of them. That doesn't mean god did it. It could be caused by influences of another universe, or something on the sub atomic level, or it could just be the way the universe is. Romanticizing it doesn't change the facts. Not knowing does not equal god.



furthermore Hindus believe in creation and they believe it started with the sound of "AUM"

I said earlier the universe was not thought into creation it was spoke into creation...

Next idiot please...


You clearly do not understand many basic things about the world and the universe. Hinduism is a religion. Buddhism is a religion. I don't care about your assumption about the universe being "spoken" into creation, and again you choose to insult because you can't argue with my points. Pretty sad actually, but if thinking that all non believers are automatically idiots helps you sleep at night, then more power to you.
edit on 7-8-2015 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 12:30 PM
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originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Mugly

Thing is I wonder why the religious are trying so hard to justify their club.
Here is me thinking they had faith.
If they did they wouldn't need to argue for their religion would they?.


It's just silly how many times he dodged and deflected the question. It's clear he's never research anything scientific or any other religion aside from his own, but that's typical of the extreme religious. It's just a shame he's got one of my idols in his avatar and is disgracing him by posting such drivel.
edit on 7-8-2015 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 01:54 PM
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originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: Subnatural


P.S: If he forced Saul and Paul to come to him then he took away that much touted free will, didn't he?


You do realize they are the same person right ?
That his encounter directly with Jesus Christ changed his world view, he freely did this when the evidence was so overwhelming he could no longer deny it to himself any longer. Granted he already did believe in God and a creator
But he went from viscously persecuting those with the truth of reality, to their biggest and strongest supporter.

Just for fun I wish Jesus would do that to every atheist member on ATS one day, that would be a blast.
It will never happen, but it would be awesome if it did. I would love to see the posts here the next day.


You are right, they are the same. Maybe I should read up on my bible stories. My mistake.

Still, as you say, the encounter with Jesus Christ provided him with evidence so overwhelming that he had to change his world view. If God had not provided this evidence then he would have had a different opinion? Where is the free will?

I will forgive you for ignoring the rest of my post. No one is perfect, after all.



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 02:18 PM
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a reply to: arimass101

We are a species in a nursery; on a planet and we think we know sooooo much. But, the truth is that we have been no further than to our single, natural satellite. We have sent robots out but they are about as useful as an iPhone would be on Mars.
MSL Curiosity doing selfies... which it does regularly.

God?
No God?

Both beliefs are based on faith alone because we have no proof... none whatsoever, that God exists or does not.
In this vast universe, we are still a speck of dust that is populated by a race that thinks it has all the answers but has so, so few..

Ooops... who is that coming in the door? Everyone, back to your cribs!


...




posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 02:21 PM
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a reply to: redoubt


Both beliefs are based on faith alone because we have no proof... none whatsoever, that God exists or does not.


proof? no. but thats not to say there isnt a hell (giggle) of a case to be made.



In inferential statistics the null hypothesis usually refers to a general statement or default position that there is no relationship between two measured phenomena, or no difference among groups. Rejecting or disproving the null hypothesis—and thus concluding that there are grounds for believing that there is a relationship between two phenomena (e.g. that a potential treatment has a measurable effect)—is a central task in the modern practice of science, and gives a precise sense in which a claim is capable of being proven false.


en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 02:27 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm



proof? no. but thats not to say there isnt a hell (giggle) of a case to be made.

Indeed. A helluva case to be made someday... but, in our lifetimes? As the current trends to selfies-imposed imprisonment is going?

Yeah... that IS worth a giggle :p



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 03:06 PM
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"Either the universe had a creator or the universe had always existed. Which is more logical?"

Those are two mutually exclusive questions. They are completely unrelated and one is not dependent on the other. That's logic.

About a creator – a creator doesn't have to be a god. There's an array possibilities for a creator. A creator could have been a highly sophisticated computer algorithm that modeled what we see as the universe. It could be a being in another universe playing a video game which creates its fantasy. It could be a god in the traditional sense – an all seeing, all knowing, ever present god.

The point is that there's no objective evidence for the existence, or lack of existence, of any machine or being who could have created this universe. So my conclusion, or logic, is that it doesn't matter – right now anyway.

Here's a recent article which suggests that we are a computer simulation – and the rationale for this conclusion is very intriguing (I'll let you find that conclusion in the article – hint: read Marvin Minsky's opinion).
www.space.com...

So, why bother even posing the question? It's irrelevant because it's an unknowable from a scientific and hard evidence perspective. A belief system like a religion is based on faith. And faith requires no evidence. It just requires faith.

About the universe and how long it has existed: Find the beginning of time and you'll know how old the universe is. Problem is time may be a unique characteristic of those who can perceive it. Without perception of time, there is no time, therefore, no universe. If we perceive time, then at least in our universe, there probably was a beginning and there will be an end. That doesn't rule out an infinite universe. It only rules out our ability to perceive infinity. Just my opinions.



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 03:41 PM
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originally posted by: redoubt
a reply to: TzarChasm



proof? no. but thats not to say there isnt a hell (giggle) of a case to be made.

Indeed. A helluva case to be made someday... but, in our lifetimes? As the current trends to selfies-imposed imprisonment is going?

Yeah... that IS worth a giggle :p


oh, we can make a case now. a damn good one, in my humble opinion. certainly enough to make an educated statement. proof...that may take a while yet. but im sure one way or another, we will find it. perhaps it will turn everything we know on its head. i cant say that wont happen. but to say that the human species needs to be told what to make of its existence, or how to apply it. yes, that makes me giggle too. we have fought wars over freedom so that we could have the pleasure of making or breaking it on our own. if it turns out that we are some experiment by an advanced alien species or some figure of mythology makes itself known, wont make a bit of difference to me. i am no ones property. none of us are.



posted on Aug, 7 2015 @ 04:41 PM
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originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
2 Timothy 3:16

Every Scripture passage is inspired by God. All of them are useful for teaching, pointing out errors, correcting people, and training them for a life that has God's approval.

I understand where you're coming from, but I just don't believe it. The Bible is full of inaccuracies.

It's one of the many reasons I don't treat it as anything divine.


edit on 8-7-2015 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



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