Dear Atheists: I will prove to you that there is a Creator to the universe. Come debate me.

a reply to: mOjOm

the fact the same observable design characteristics and confines of the structure of the observable mathematical mechanics of all things in the known universe is proof of the fact it is a code which to me does nothing but show there is one creator who has used such means to create and confine his creation...

a reply to: 5StarOracle

But there are very real reasons for why that ratio is used so much within nature. Reasons that make logical sense and have a perfectly reasonable answer for why it's there that have nothing to do with God leaving his signature. It is also not the only special number used within Living Systems nor is it always used in them. It is however used or approximated in most living systems, but can you think of another reason besides God Code for it being there???

What else does it represent??? Why is it used so often withing Living/Growing Systems??? What function does it have or accomplish that other numbers can't???

It is quite unique, I agree. But it's because it allows for something that other numbers can't provide. Reasons that fit very nicely within scientific laws that we know and understand.

a reply to: mOjOm

Oh you mean the scientific laws which creation is bound by?

I guess you are arguing for me again because scientific laws are also proof of creation by order...

a reply to: 5StarOracle

we have no idea what laws creation was bound by - so I'm guessing, no, not those ones

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: peter vlar
No, Noah has the oldest religion, nothing was written out, it was just him and God chatting, every other religion got wiped out at the flood.

If you want to be that literal, Noah didn't have a religion. Noah had a covenant with his god but there were no religious ceremonies, no rituals, not even any other people involved aside from his family. That's not a religion. You can't insist on being literal in your belief in the flood myth and then be allegorical in how Noah's religiosity is portrayed. As for every other religion being wiped out after the flood, not even close. And I'm going to be kind here and not go into a massive diatribe on my thoughts regarding a world wide flood. If there were one, Egyptian religious practices existed prior to the Semitic people ever leaving the Arabian Penninsula for the modern Middle East, Sumeria etc... and their practices continued well into their incorporation into the Roman Empire. Likewise the religion of the Indus Valley Civilization predated their own version of the flood myth and continued long after. The Uruk period of Sumeria predates their flood myth which was the basis for the Hebrew flood myth. I could give many more examples of religious practices predating their accompanying flood mythos that survived until after the allegorical flood.

Then after Nimrod and his tower got ruined, religion began to spread around the world by groups bound by the same languages, this spawned many new religions bound by language and culture. Hinduism most likely came from the group that settled in the geographical region of India.

I get it... you don't believe history, archaeology or any other science because they contradict your bible. But the fact still remains that people were living in these areas long before any accounts of flood myths and the same people were there long after. The First Sangam period of Hinduism goes back as far as 10KA. This predates Abraham by 7 millennia and the YEC version of the creation of the entire universe by nearly 4KA. Those people had been in India and Pakistan for 10's of thousands of years, not post deluge as you claim.

Unless you have some source, citation or a timeline giving dates for all of these events?

a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

You and the mouse in your pocket may not know or understand scientific laws that govern all things known but plenty of others do...

Ever heard of gravity?

originally posted by: allusernamestaken
He doesn't seem like the kind of friend I'd like to have really, seeing as he's not terribly understanding to those who say, live in a country where a different religion is practiced.

I have seen a massive amount of evidence that suggests that just the opposite is true...

Below are only a few examples of many:

Ex-sorcerer Ian Clayton trans-relocated by God to talk to a Shaman Priest:

Satanist metal head Kirk Martin experiences a miraculous visitation from God:

Graham Cooke tells about 24 Satanists doing a a blood sacrifice around a fire and Jesus appears in the fire... all 24 are instantly delivered:

A Shaman Priest in Indonesia gets a direct visit from Jesus:

There was a pagan village called Tubunaus about three miles from Soe. One day a pagan priest called Sem Faet, who also had leprosy, was giving a sacrifice to his “blood god.” Jesus came and revealed Himself to this pagan priest. “I am the God you are seeking,” He said,. “This is not the way to worship Me.”

“Lord who are you and how do you want to be worshipped?” the priest asked. “I will tell you about name and how you are to worship Me later,” Jesus said. ” First you must gather all your images and witchcraft materials and burn them. When you do this, I will visit you again and tell you all about myself.” Then the Lord disappeared.

Like a Mighty Wind - Mel Tari

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: mOjOm

Oh you mean the scientific laws which creation is bound by?

I guess you are arguing for me again because scientific laws are also proof of creation by order...

The laws which govern the universe and how it functions. Certain numbers and rules apply in our universe. Most of these rules can be represented with math as functions. These functions have certain values. Some of those values are exact and must be exact in order to work correctly. Slight variations can cause massive problems at different scales. However, while they may be exact we may not always know it's exact value but can get close enough. Those are Transcendental numbers like phi and pi. We don't know their exact value because our decimal expansion is continuous forever. So we represent them with a symbol. But they are universal constants and do have an exact value and function that is unique and important.

a reply to: peter vlar

I get it... you don't believe history, archaeology or any other science because they contradict your bible.

And yet sometimes archaeology surprises the naysayers and supports the bible accounts, things like the "Cyrus Cylinder".
But I guess all those types of things are considered fakes, because they don't support your world view.
I have done plenty of research over the years finding many secular historical supportive second party confirmations as to the authenticity of the bible. This short video sums it up nicely.

a reply to: GetHyped

Mainly the awareness it brings that we know nothing. The potential beliefs in science that we hold, could be so far from the truth it. I dont believe in God because i have proof, i just find quantum theory and my work has offered me enough evidence that there is a power above us. That power may even be our own minds that we cannot utilise or understand. I call it God.

A smart man can believe in God. A smart man can believe in the big bang. A genius will be open to knowledge related to either. It also takes a moron to deny either.

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

You and the mouse in your pocket may not know or understand scientific laws that govern all things known but plenty of others do...

Ever heard of gravity?

Sure - and no-one actually knows how it works.

But you specifically said the laws that covered creation - and no-one knows those.

originally posted by: GetHyped

originally posted by: Boniouk06
I believe in a God but only because my work in quantum physics leads me into believing that.

What is your work and what leads you to this conclusion?

I work in IT but for a team working on retrocausality within the quantum field. Ultimately, my opinion comes from data i see and conversations i overhear but thats about it. It's not really worth anything.

Anyway, Some of the assumptions i have since made are that 1) time possibly doesnt exist. 2) we may have parrallel universe, maybe even one for each single distinguishable decision we each make. 3) we know nothing, not even close to nothing. We've created a social knowledge base so far from the truth i'd estimate our knowledge of truth is somewhere in the region of -15%.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33


And yet sometimes archaeology surprises the naysayers and supports the bible accounts, things like the "Cyrus Cylinder".
But I guess all those types of things are considered fakes, because they don't support your world view.

Interesting how science is accurate when it supports your views but is inaccurate when it doesn't. Please don't speak on my behalf. I never said anything was fake. I will say that people are attributing things to scripture that aren't actually reasonable though. The Hebrew texts were clearly written by human hands during historical periods in the Levant. There is no question that there are some actual true historical events being described in some instances.

There are many other events that are borrowed from earlier civilizations and others borrowed during their time in Babylon that were later added to their own scriptural text. Things like a world wide flood and all the people dispersing from the Middle East to populate the other lands of the world and then invent their own religions and languages however are not accurate. Both the original Hebrew and later the Romanized version of Christianity get more wrong than they do right though.
People were in fact already living in every corner of the world, languages were already well developed and various religions or at the very least, religious practices, can be demonstrated going all the way back to the paleolithic. There is undeniable evidence that several regional religious practices were influential on the development of what would become Judaism from Egypt to Mesopotamia and Babylon.
Except thathe shape of the earth appears to already have been known in Isaiah's time. Ancient astronomers could determine that the earth was round by observing its circular shadow move across the moon during lunar eclipses. There is some suggestion that the Egyptians knew of the earth's spherical size and shape around 2550 B.C.E. ( more than a millennia before Moses). The Greek philosopher Pythagoras, who was born in 532 B.C.E., defended the spherical theory on the basis of observations he had made of the shape of the sun and moon (Uotila 1984). If this information was known by educated Greeks and Egyptians during biblical times, its use by Isaiah is nothing special.

Isaiah 11:12 also refers to the "four quarters of the earth", but we do not take that as indicative of the earth's shape do we?

One last thought on the Book of Isaiah, the oldest written copy of Isaiah is at the absolute oldest, from 335 BPE and at the youngest, 100 BPE. Regardless, the oldest possible date of the manuscript still dates to over 200 years after the Jews were freed from exile in Babylon. It is not actual proof of a prophecy

I have done plenty of research over the years finding many secular historical supportive second party confirmations as to the authenticity of the bible. This short video sums it up nicely.

Excellent. Then you should be all too aware of the many prophecies by Isaiah that never came true right? Let's look at a few...
In Isaiah 7:1-7 God tells the king of Judah that he shall not be harmed by his enemies. BUT it did come to pass. His enemies did harm him. as 2 Chronicles 28:1-8 tells us...

Wherefore the LORD his God delivered him into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him, and carried away a great multitude of them captives, and brought them to Damascus. And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter. For Pekah the son of Remaliah slew in Judah an hundred and twenty thousand in one day, which were all valiant men; because they had forsaken the LORD God of their fathers

Isaiah 19:1-8 says the Nile will dry up and the sea will drain. Never happened.

Isaiah 19:18 Isaiah: Egyptians will speak the language of Canaan. Never happened.

The bible says that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre Never happened.

Ezekiel 29:8-15 states: Egypt will be a barren wasteland. God even gives a check list...
1.Egypt and everything from the tower of Syene to Ethiopia will be desolate and waste
2.God will own the Nile
3.No humans will walk through Egypt
4.No animals will walk through Egypt
5.Nobody will live in Egypt for 40 years
6.Egyptians will leave Egypt and be scattered among other nations
7.After 40 years of scattering, Egypt will be repopulated by the scattered Egyptians
8.Egypt will be a weak kingdom, and will never control "the nations"

This passage is one of the most erroneous in the Bible. Since Ezekiel was penned, Egypt has never been a desolate waste, there has never been a time when people have not walked through it, there has never been a period of forty years when Egypt was uninhabited after the civilization started there, and it has never been surrounded by other desolate countries.

Let's take a look at the Failure to smite Jebus

In Joshua 3:10 the eponymous Jew is quoted as saying the following:

Hereby ye shall know that the living God is among you, and that he will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Hivites, and the Perizzites, and the Girga#es, and the Amorites, and the Jebusites.

This is a repetition of a promise had from God's own lips in earlier books. However, mere moments later we learn that:

As for the Jebusites the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem unto this day.

The Books of Samuel relate that Jerusalem eventually falls to David, however there is no mention of the Jebusites being driven out. The Book of Kings implies that the surviving Jebusites were made serfs

1 Kings 9:20: And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel,
1 Kings 9:21: Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bondservice unto this day.

The above verses from 1 Kings also contradict Deuteronomy 20:17 (ie. the Jebusites were meant to be slaughtered entirely):

But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.


We also have Exodus 23:25-31 which says that Israel will extend its borders from the Red Sea to the Euphrates. Wanna take a guess how that worked out? I'll give you a hint... Never happened.

Ezekiel 28:24-26 predicts that Israel will live in peace with its neighbors. How has that worked out for Israel historically up until right this very moment?

These are but a few in an extremely long list. If you like, I can continue with more from the old Testament or I could switch to the NT and show all the errors made there if you prefer. Let me know.

a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

Now you are making stuff up...

I said govern, get out your dictionary look up the meaning of govern and comprehension I believe you need help with both...

Are you really that desperate to try and discredit my opinion that you have to result to lies or are you that oblivious to what's in front of you?

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
Ever heard of gravity?

Woops, now you're arguing my side. Funny how that happens. Have YOU ever heard of gravity? It explains the appearance of "order". Gravity does not equal god. But wow this thread really took a dump huh?

I said govern, get out your dictionary look up the meaning of govern and comprehension I believe you need help with both...

Govern - conduct the policy, actions, and affairs of (a state, organization, or people).

You are saying the universal laws do that? LMAO, Please prove it. And you say I ride the short bus? Your arguments have gotten worse. I can't believe you even tried to deny Buddhism was a religion when people were talking about Hinduism, and you were dead wrong regardless.

The laws of the universe are merely OUR MEASUREMENTS of constants in the universe. It's a measurement of how things are. Just because that is how things are, doesn't mean it was set up by god. Prove that the laws were created, then we'll talk.

originally posted by: Boniouk06
I call it God.

As an atheist I call it "The Force". Which really means nothing IMO.

But, what about religion. Take your pick.

a reply to: Barcs

All order is representative of creation by the confines of its constructs...

not the randomness or chaos you would see from evolution or a diff means of creation...

So although I agree the non believers have had there way with this thread and it has been derailed I do not feel I am in agreement with you on scientific law...

a reply to: Barcs

Govern

To hold in check, control...

You are rather silly...

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
. . . not the randomness or chaos you would see from evolution . . .

Evolution isn't random.

Why Evolution Isn’t Chance
One of the most common arguments against evolution put forward by creationist laypeople goes something like this: “Either evolution is true or creationism is. If evolution is true, then we all got here by random chance. I just can’t believe that; there’s too much order, complexity and beauty in this world for it all to be the result of chance. Therefore, creationism must be true.” - www.patheos.com...

a reply to: Barcs

furthermore Hindus believe in creation and they believe it started with the sound of "AUM"

I said earlier the universe was not thought into creation it was spoke into creation...

Next idiot please...