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Dear Atheists: I will prove to you that there is a Creator to the universe. Come debate me.

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posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 12:08 AM
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originally posted by: Agartha

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
a reply to: Agartha

And even if the sequence WAS in "everything" it still is not actually evidence that god exists - it is evidence of how nature works and says nothing about it's creator, if there is any!



I also believe so, these patterns were created for optimal growth, survival.

But I am an Agnostic, which means I am open to the possibility of God existing, although I am becoming more and more skeptical as I grow older because most things seem to have a natural explanation.


I am interested in this statement, are you attributing intelligence to nature? Or are you suggesting that it is natural for intelligence to seek to thrive? If I might, what is nature or natural to you?




posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 12:23 AM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: Blue_Jay33

I always thought it interesting how Christians use scripture about unbelievers to strengthen their beliefs, and sometimes absurd anti-scientific views.

Not saying you're doing that necessarily, just making an observation.



Here is why

2 Timothy 3:16

Every Scripture passage is inspired by God. All of them are useful for teaching, pointing out errors, correcting people, and training them for a life that has God's approval.


And

Hebrews 4:12


God's word is living and active. It is sharper than any two-edged sword and cuts as deep as the place where soul and spirit meet, the place where joints and marrow meet. God's word judges a person's thoughts and intentions.


The above scripture shows that people would react when the verses are quoted, God knew in the last days people would either react with pleasure, apathy, or angry frustration and disdain...but then again it was designed to do just that. He is watching the reactions, and responds by giving people the stiff arm, so to speak or draws them closer. In other words the more a person hates the scriptures the further they push themselves away from God, and it is very likely they will stay an evolutionary atheist. Unless God's see's something in you that is so amazing that he forces a "Saul" to "Paul" level epiphany onto you by some earth shattering life event.
edit on 6-8-2015 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 12:50 AM
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a reply to: Blue_Jay33

To be fair the men who wrote this put all that in to cover themselves.
"Ah we knew people would call out what is said in the Bible so we will tell you we know they will so you keep thinking it is from God".
In the upcoming Monkey Bible the Great sage has told me to write I will also put in that people will say the monkey bible is bollocks and not to believe them because I knew they will say that proving Monkey is God!".
edit on 6-8-2015 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 01:49 AM
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originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Blue_Jay33

To be fair the men who wrote this put all that in to cover themselves.
"Ah we knew people would call out what is said in the Bible so we will tell you we know they will so you keep thinking it is from God".
In the upcoming Monkey Bible the Great sage has told me to write I will also put in that people will say the monkey bible is bollocks and not to believe them because I knew they will say that proving Monkey is God!".


I have never understood this. Using bible verses to debate with an atheist.

If I don't believe the bible - - - what difference does it make what it says?



posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 02:22 AM
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a reply to: Annee

Bingo. Most religions have passages within that justify it's existence. Blue pointing out that the bible says non believers will criticize it is as silly as the thread last week that suggested the bible was right about snakes with legs because we discovered a fossil from the dinosaur age that was the snake's ancient ancestor. Confirmation bias, confirmation bias and more confirmation bias. Quoting bible passages to a non believer is pointless. The Quaran has similar passages as well, but something tells me Blue wouldn't be convinced by a similar Quaran passage despite believing his own holy book hook line and sinker with no scrutiny.



posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 04:37 AM
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a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul


originally posted by: onthedownlow

I am interested in this statement, are you attributing intelligence to nature? Or are you suggesting that it is natural for intelligence to seek to thrive? If I might, what is nature or natural to you?


Ok, I shouldn't have used 'created' but I meant created by the plants, by nature, not by a God.

I think plants looking for the best exposure for light have evolved to grow with a particular pattern which promotes optimum growth, one of this patterns is the Fibonacci sequence. Some other plants evolved to use this ratio for maximum seed arrangement, like sunflowers.

Yes, onthedownlow, I believe it is natural for everything that is alive to do their best to survive and reproduce, from humans to plants.

What is nature? racking my brains now, how can I explain... to me nature is all that hasn't been made by man, nature is what the Earth has produced, from rocks to plants to animals to us. What we make is development. Nature, the natural world, is what would exist if humans weren't around: the environment, the weather, fauna and flora.

I am not sure my definition of nature is very clear, but it's difficult to explain.




posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 09:30 AM
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a reply to: Agartha

Thank you for responding Agartha, I think your definition of nature is very similar to my own.

There does seem to be a natural occurrence of intelligence. So much so that the intelligence transcends generations, and the best way we can describe it is 'natural instinct'... an intelligence that is genetically encoded?


Edit: Sorry, my brain is so tired, I can't form a fluid thought.
edit on 6-8-2015 by onthedownlow because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 09:31 AM
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a reply to: boymonkey74

But here is the thing, when the bible was completed culturally everybody had a religion there was no such thing as evolution, and atheists would be very rare. The religious landscape was very different you had Judaism, Christianity, and plethora of paganism, Islam never even existed. Everybody believed in a creation account of some kind.
So really it can't be said that some of the concepts you speak of were directly addressing the people of that day.

But God made sure the Bible was future proofed, he even threw in these little gems for those he knew wouldn't believe in him as the creator in the distant future. It even seems to allude to evolution itself.

Romans 1: 20-23


For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],
21 Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
23 And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.


And then there is this one too

Romans 1:25

They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator


It could be said today that the scientific ideology of the entire evolutionary concept of orgins from cosmology to abiogenesis to evolution; from God's perspective that is exactly what evolutionary atheists have done.

And when the bible calls out a specific group I expect them to get mad.
Especially when the targeted group thinks they are being trolled by fiction.....but let me ask you this if it's all such a lie why does it upset them so much ?

I actually can answer that question, sub-conscience intuition is in play at the psychological level that people can't even fathom. People think it's outrage at ignorance but that is just the basic surface thoughts. Go deeper much deeper.

edit on 6-8-2015 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 09:33 AM
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I hope you've at least considered that there is no God. I've considered the existence of such a being, but came to the idea that they were talking about an unseen force such as dark matter, which would make sense as that is everywhere, is eternal and so on.

However, if this God you speak of does exist, there are a couple of points to mention.

He doesn't seem like the kind of friend I'd like to have really, seeing as he's not terribly understanding to those who say, live in a country where a different religion is practiced.

Also, if God exists and I must admit that it is a possibility, then the Devil may have written the bible, or any other book and the true test is if you believe in what it represents, which is a deity, or if you believe in morality, which would be more of a deep understanding of self, which could be God, since to ourselves, we are everywhere at once and all eternal and all the rest.




edit on 6-8-2015 by allusernamestaken because: Added detail



posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 09:46 AM
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a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Awesome scripture! I am embarrassed to say that I have not read Romans. The scripture you post seems to be the answer to an inevitable question that each of us must ask ourselves, at some point.



posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 10:02 AM
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a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Dude, give it up. You are trying so hard it's painful to watch. This thread was a waste of time and so is your attempt (emphasis on attempt) to bridge the gap between theology and science. I know you want it, but sorry, it's not happening. Has nothing to do with hating or fearing the truth - quite the opposite in fact. Integrity in investigative and analytical protocol is something we cherish, and simply don't see in your arguments. Confirmation bias, self fulfilling prophecy, every psyops trick in the book...that's what we see.
edit on 6-8-2015 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 10:29 AM
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a reply to: TzarChasm

What Winston Churchill said




posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 10:33 AM
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originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: TzarChasm

What Winston Churchill said



If you don't mind being just a little more specific...



posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 10:38 AM
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originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
And when the bible calls out a specific group I expect them to get mad.
Especially when the targeted group thinks they are being trolled by fiction.....but let me ask you this if it's all such a lie why does it upset them so much ?


It doesn't. Nobody gets angry, they just don't believe the scriptures and correctly tell you there is no evidence that the bible is true or that the events with god are true. You always immediately claim we are just angry, but none of us are defending any type of belief system here. We are only correcting misunderstandings of science, and reiterating the notion that there is no objective evidence of god. It's not anger, it's logic and it's sad that you can't see that, and choose to appeal to emotions with us and quote bible passages in circular logic style rather than address our arguments or present valid evidence. The truth is most atheists and agnostics that post here get a good chuckle over many of the things you guys call "evidence" and arguments against evolution. It's downright comical at times, but keep painting every atheist / science savy person as angry because of a few scriptures they don't even believe to be true.

I'll even take it one step further. The religious folks are the ones getting upset in this thread. They are desperately trying to validate their faith and can't do it. Prime example is the captain kirk avatar guy just insulting anybody who disagrees with his faulty position rather than presenting logic and defending his points with evidence. You don't see atheists starting these type of threads. It's always the religious folk looking to attack science or non believers but you guys love to play the victim card whenever your arguments get shut down.

Intellectual dishonesty should ALWAYS be called out on ATS. It has nothing to do with anger, it's basic logic.

edit on 6-8-2015 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 10:48 AM
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a reply to: Blue_Jay33



What Winston Churchill said


That drunkard and his big red nose?



posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 11:12 AM
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Nm
edit on 6-8-2015 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 11:28 AM
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Everyone seems like they are surprised at the manner in which this discussion took place. Don't tell me this is the first creationism vs science flamefest you have been to. We all knew how this was going to go, even before we clicked on the thread link. A massive exercise in futility as always.




posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 12:23 PM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm
Everyone seems like they are surprised at the manner in which this discussion took place. Don't tell me this is the first creationism vs science flamefest you have been to. We all knew how this was going to go, even before we clicked on the thread link. A massive exercise in futility as always.



True.

But, it always surprises me how the believers claim the non-believers start it.



posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 12:31 PM
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Re-runs aren't so bad.




posted on Aug, 6 2015 @ 12:32 PM
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originally posted by: JuJuBee
Psalm 14:1

"The fool has said in his heart, there is no God."
Sounds like TRUTH to me!


He is a fool...he should speak up, not say it in his heart.




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